Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Gail

Another note, based on prior comments:

Even though I am of this viewpoint, I do not want anyone dead. This is the message I am getting from your posts, that if I follow this line of reasoning that I will enjoy the punishment of the wicked. That is not the truth at all. I do not desire their demise, neither do I use God's punishment against anyone as a fear tactic to scare others. You are assuming something that is not necessarily true.

I desire only peace for others. Whatever method God uses to eradicate sin is fine with me, for I trust Him. I've known for myself the effect of learning of Him in my life. That is of peace and reconciliation.

I cannot fully agree with you. God is our example, "it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure."(1 John 3:2-3) Now if I am to be like the traditional view of God, than I will turn out to be a killer because the "time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service"(John 16:2) This prophecy also extends to our time. Though it has been done since creation. Men killing in the name of God thinking they are doing God a service. Just as Peter thought He was doing God a service when he "struck the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear."(John 18:10) This was not ok. Which is why it is so important to know and understand God.

Peter responded in the flesh, using violence to deal with the situation, but from a carnal sense.

This is talking about a flesh response, as was bringing fire down from heaven.

Remember, the ultimate premise being set before you, is that God and God alone has the right to take life, unless he vests that authority in humanity or angels specifically.

Mark

[Lutz13]

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I also believe that love has to destroy sin ultimately, that it has no choice or it will not be love.

Once again. You're using human love and trying to say it is Gods love. Do you love Satan Twilight? I can tell you that God does.

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This does not make me bloodthirsty or a deranged sinner, it recognises the logic that sin ultimately has to be removed from the universe and the only one who can do that without a stain upon His Character, is its Creator and the our God, who is love.

No, it doesn't make you a bloodthirsty or deranged sinner. But it does leave you open to "well...maybe God does want me to kill this guy who isn't believing. I mean, He did kill in the past, so He must be asking me to do this deed for him".

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member, the issue here is the "expectation" of what we think "love" should and should not do.

"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things, love never fails."(1 Corinthians 13:4-8)

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Both positions presented here, have the danger of limiting Gods Character, question is which one is it...?

If you want to know Gods character, read Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. Jesus is the express image of God the Father. Want to know more? Read Exodus 20:1-17

[Lutz13]

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Peter responded in the flesh, using violence to deal with the situation, but from a carnal sense.

Like what the children of Israel did. Like what the Catholics did to the heretics. Like what is going to happen with the Sunday law. His motives may be different. But when Jesus says, "live by the sword, die by the sword" He meant it. If you take up a sword ever and kill with it, you will die with it. God doesn't bless it for you to make it ok.

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This is talking about a flesh response, as was bringing fire down from heaven.

"Startled by His disciples' suggestion that He call down fire upon the Samaritans who had slighted Him, He said, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of" (Luke 9:55). What does this tell us about God? Would the fact that God performed such an act alter its "spirit"? or is the evil nature of such an act eternally carved in granite settled at all times, in all places, on all occasions? This event in our Lord's life suggests the latter. Burning humans in the name of religion is always and only the work of an evil spirit; Jesus insists it is not something our loving heavenly Father would do."

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Remember, the ultimate premise being set before you, is that God and God alone has the right to take life, unless he vests that authority in humanity or angels specifically.

Gods greatest gift to His creations is...Freewill. If God took their lives because they didn't believe the same as Him, it stops being freewill.

[Lutz13]

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But it does not say they destroy him, but that they turn on him.

And is he going to stand there and allow them to kill him? Probably not. He will fight back...Reminds me of.."Live by the sword, die by the sword" "you reap what you sow"...

[Lutz13]

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I second this, I have no desire for anyone to die, but I accept that it is probably necessary for the sake of the Universe.

And that is the problem. "The time is coming that whoever kills you will think they he offers God service."(John 16:2)

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Did you say loving? God drowns & burns to death children and you call that loving?

[/quote']

There is a head knowledge and heart knowledge of every truth, both have to be in sync before we can teach any truth...

:-)

Mark

But without agape it is nothing! See 1 Cor 13:3

[Gail]

I must say that I am enjoying this discussion. Thanks for keeping it civil!

There are a few good threads going on at the moment. :)

[Lutz13]

A bit more on character. Notice "...He will be called: The Lord Our Righteousness."(Jeremiah 23:26) "...for all Your commandments are righteousness."(Psalm 119:172) Just like His laws are written in the heart. They must have came from His heart. They define who He is. Love. So we know that Love never takes and is always looking after everyone but themselves. God loves us more than He loves Himself. This is evident in the cross.

Wow...I actually never realized that until I just wrote it....

[Guest WilloMar]

God is Love. He is God because He is Love. Sin is the opposite of Love. Sin is confined to this earth; because the universe is govern by God who is Love. There's a law of sin and death. When Adam and Eve sinned, because of that law of sin and death, they would have died instantly. But there was a promise. Before the foundation of the world our Creator promised His Father that He would take all sins from all people upon Himself, the sin-Bear. And since it was the Creator’s promise, the Actuality was in His promise. Therefore when Adam and Eve sinned they didn't die. And that’s why we don’t perish when we sin. All of us sinners are alive because of that promise, which was confirmed at the cross.

Murder, Kill, they come from the same word. How they were differentiated was in the voicing of the word. Let’s go back to the flood (which seems to be a favorite place to some), was it Murder when babies were drowned? How about pregnant women? Where do you cross the line? And what about the first born in Egypt, were there any babies and pregnant women caught in the destruction? And on and on it goes.

Let’s be ready for Jesus!

[Lutz13]

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I also believe that love has to destroy sin ultimately, that it has no choice or it will not be love.

Also..."...you thought that I was altogether like you; But I will rebuke you, and set them in order before your eyes"(Psalm 50:21)and once again..."For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' Says the Lord"(Isaiah 55:8)If you haven't noticed already, our ways are usually the opposite of what Gods ways are. "He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life."(John 12:25) There is more "But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are might; and the base things of the world and the thing which are despised God has chosen and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are."(1 Corinthians 1:27-28) Maybe that isn't enough. How about "To everyone who has will be given, and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him"(Luke 19:26) Gods wrath is no different. The human mind tries to bring it down to our wrath. Though God has spoken concerning this. "My thoughts are not your thoughts, my ways not your ways"(Isaiah 55:8) Yes, I will repeat that verse until it sinks in. The ultimate point is we should not be shocked to find heavenly truth in reverse of popular ideas.

[Guest WilloMar]

Twilight said that "Peter responded in the flesh, using violence to deal with the situation, but from a carnal sense (when he cut of that ear). This is talking about a flesh response, as was bringing fire down from heaven (when the disciples asked Jesus if He wanted them to command fire to come down like Elijah did). Remember, the ultimate premise being set before you, is that God and God alone has the right to take life, unless he vests that authority in humanity or angels specifically."

First of all, all violence and destruction is carnal/sinful, a fleshly response. God can take life, but He won't, because if He did He would cease to be God. God is God because He is Love, which is what rules all worlds, except, of course, ours, but the whole universe is govern by Love.

Sin destroys, because that's its natural propensity. Therefore to say God destroys is to say He is sin (although He was made to be sin, He never personaly sinned).

Let's all be able to welcome Jesus, OK?!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Bingo! Jesus stated' date=' "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father." Show me, in life of Christ (as recorded in the NT) where Jesus beat the hell out of someone, or drowned them...or burnt them with fire. Yes, I can't hear you????

Rob

PS: Go ahead and bring up the money changers and I'll disprove this one also.

[/quote']

Let us hear your explanation of the money lenders. :-)

Mark

You first, but I bet you have Christ striking the money changers with the whip He made to drive the animals out.

[Robert]

But according to the Bible, fire comes down from heaven and all sinners are than gone for ever as if they were never born.

Which heavens? Heaven also refers to the atmosphere....Massive volcanic eruptions could easily shoot fire up into the heavens and then rain down on those below....

Thinking outside the box,

Rob

[Robert]

But murder and justice are not the same thing. We are told in the Bible (Romans 13:1->) that justice ministers are ordained of God, the minister of God.

[Robert]

The authorities administer justice, and that sometimes includes corporal punishment, up to and including the death penalty.

When you look at Romans 13 balance it out with what Jesus said elsewhere about our leaders:

Luke 22:25 Jesus told them, "In this world the kings and leaders order their people around, and yet they are called 'friends of the people.' 26 But among you, those who are the greatest should take the lowest rank, and the leader should be like a servant. 27 Normally the master sits at the table and is served by his servants. But not here! For I am your servant.

Jesus is saying what is evident. Politicians and leaders are self-seeking. All they do is to be seen of men. It's all about image and political correctness. That's why it is failing....We will end up with anarchy.

So in Romans 13 God has given the sin problem over to mankind. While it's better than anarchy it's still full of injustice and other ills...

Rob

[Robert]

Yes, it is very easy. I am not sure how this can be misunderstood. Jesus is the perfect example. Just as Jesus said "for it is written: I will strike the Shepherd and the sheep of the flock will be scattered."(Matthew 26:31) Indeed Jesus was struck, but by whom? God says He will strike the Shepard(Jesus). "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up" (Romans 8:32) Ah yes, Jesus was separated from His Father. Our sins were being placed upon Christ, and He was suffering Gods wrath. Did God really deliver Jesus to Pilot? Or perhaps..."You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above."(John 19:11)Gods protection was taken from Him. "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"(Mark 15:34)

TU TU TU TU TU TU

[Robert]

The bible says that it is from God, Ellen White says it is from God, yet it is presented here as being from Satan in reality.

When God goes Satan comes in and causes problems. That can occur passively or actively.

In Job's case it was active.

In the case of natural disasters that is passive. Satan doesn't directly cause the problem, but yet these things are the result of his rebellion and sin.

Ultimately what kills Satan and his sympathizers is passive. The results of sin destroys Satan and those who reject Christ. As EGW states:

"God destroys no man; but when a man stifles conviction, when he turns from evidence, he is sowing unbelief, and will reap as he has sown. ....In simplicity and truth we would speak to the impenitent in regard to the way in which men destroy their own souls. You are not to say that God is to blame, that he has made a decree against you. No, he is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of the truth, and to the haven of eternal bliss. No soul is ever finally deserted of God, given up to his own ways, so long as there is any hope of his salvation." [RH 2-17-1891]

[Tallmark]

The ancient people had many gods (hundreds, in fact). They had a god for sunrise, sunset, for a healthy baby, for a dead baby. A god for crops, for weeds, for locusts, for corn, for cockroaches,.... you get the point. They were told that there was one true God, and to worship Him. So henceforth, all things, good and bad were blamed on God. That's how the old testament prophets wrote. For some more info on this subject get the book: "Is God Really Like That?" by Paul G. Sweitzer.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

In Rev 20 Satan dies when Fire and Brimstone falls on him and all his followers - "From God" according to the text. In Isaiah he dies when God causes fire from within him to consuming him as part of that same event.

And in EW 294 God does it in such a way that "Satan suffers for many days" and that he is punished according to his "greater guilt" as determined by the Law. In fact as the text says "as long as there is a particle left for the fire to feed on all the sense of suffering remains".

Fits perfectly. Just glad I didn't say it.

in Christ,

Bob

Can you share the Isaiah text please Bob?

Mark

I was thinking of Isaiah 14 -- but it is Ezek 28:18.

"Therefore I HAVE BROUGHT fire from the midst of you"

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

I guess I missed the "God is a liar" text.

No, Bob's theology is a lie....It misrepresents God! That's the lie....

Ranting is not the same thing as actually making a Bible point. I had hoped we could all agree on that concept.

Yes?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I post this --

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DA Chpt 78 Calvary

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter01327.htm

From the fall of Jerusalem the thoughts of Jesus passed to a wider judgment. In the destruction of the impenitent city He saw a symbol of the final destruction to come upon the world. He said, "Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?" By the green tree, Jesus represented Himself, the innocent Redeemer. God suffered His wrath against transgression to fall on His beloved Son. Jesus was to be crucified for the sins of men. What suffering, then, would the sinner bear who continued in sin? All the impenitent and unbelieving would know a sorrow and misery that language would fail to express. {DA 743.2}

..

The Saviour made no murmur of complaint. His face remained calm and serene, but great drops of sweat stood upon His brow. There was no pitying hand to wipe the death dew from His face, nor words of sympathy and unchanging fidelity to stay His human heart. While the soldiers were doing their fearful work, Jesus prayed for His enemies, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." His mind passed from His own suffering to the sin of His persecutors, and the terrible retribution that would be theirs. No curses were called down upon the soldiers who were handling Him so roughly. No vengeance was invoked upon the priests and rulers, who were gloating over the accomplishment of their purpose. Christ pitied them in their ignorance and guilt. He breathed only a plea for their forgiveness,--"for they know not what they do." {DA 744.2}

Had they known that they were putting to torture One who had come to save the sinful race from eternal ruin, they would have been seized with remorse and horror. But their ignorance did not remove their guilt; for it was their privilege to know and accept Jesus as their

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…

Jesus, suffering and dying, heard every word as the priests declared, "He saved others; Himself He cannot save. Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe." Christ could have come down from the cross. But it is because He would not save Himself that the sinner has hope of pardon and favor with God. {DA 749.1}

…

There is no question now. There are no doubts, no reproaches. When condemned for his crime, the thief had become hopeless and despairing; but strange, tender thoughts now spring up. He calls to mind all he has heard of Jesus, how He has healed the sick and pardoned sin. He has heard the words of those who believed in Jesus and followed Him weeping. He has seen and read the title above the Saviour's head. He has heard the passers-by repeat it, some with grieved, quivering lips, others with jesting and mockery. The Holy Spirit illuminates his mind, and little by little the chain of evidence is joined together. In Jesus, bruised, mocked, and hanging upon the cross, he sees the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. Hope is mingled with anguish in his voice as the helpless, dying soul casts himself upon a dying Saviour. "Lord, remember me," he cries, "when Thou comest into Thy kingdom." {DA 750.1}

…

[/p]

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And now the Lord of glory was dying, a ransom for the race. In yielding up His precious life, Christ was not upheld by triumphant joy. All was oppressive gloom. It was not the dread of death that weighed upon Him. It was not the pain and ignominy of the cross that caused His inexpressible agony. Christ was the prince of sufferers; but His suffering was from a sense of the malignity of sin, a knowledge that

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through familiarity with evil, man had become blinded to its enormity. Christ saw how deep is the hold of sin upon the human heart, how few would be willing to break from its power. He knew that without help from God, humanity must perish, and He saw multitudes perishing within reach of abundant help. {DA 752.4}

Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father's mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt. {DA 753.1}

Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. {DA 753.2}

…

The spotless Son of God hung upon the cross, His flesh lacerated with stripes; those hands so often reached out in blessing, nailed to the wooden bars; those feet so tireless on ministries of love, spiked to the tree; that royal head pierced by the crown of thorns; those quivering lips shaped to the cry of woe. And all that He endured--the blood drops that flowed from His head, His hands, His feet, the agony that racked His frame, and the unutterable anguish that filled His soul at the hiding of His Father's face--speaks to each child of humanity, declaring, It is for thee that the Son of God consents to bear this burden of guilt; for thee He spoils the domain of death, and opens the gates of Paradise. He who stilled the angry waves and walked the foam-capped billows, who made devils tremble and disease flee, who opened blind eyes and called forth the dead to life,--offers Himself upon the cross as a sacrifice, and this from love to thee.

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He, the Sin Bearer, endures the wrath of divine justice, and for thy sake becomes sin itself. {DA 755.1}

And then we get this question..

What is the wrath of God Bob?

Is this where you agree to the wrath of God statements above - but just want to "redefine wrath"??

If so -- then I suggest we take a close look at the EW 294 and GC texts for that "detail".

Please Tell me what you find there.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I reference this -

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Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

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EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but

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also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

{EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

And then get this innexplicable response from Lutz13 (who claims to accept Ellen White as a Prophet)

Yet you avoid the text that contradicts her other text. Why?

I also ask Robert if he "notices" that the details in that quote do not actually agree with his position (which "should" be no problem for Robert since he rejects Ellen White along with other key Adventist doctrines -- so this should be easy for him to respond to --) and he avoids it like a hot potato.

All very interesting responses ...

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest WilloMar]

So, Bob, what are you trying to prove? Let's say you are right, God kills and destroys. Now, since that's your idea of the God you worship, that will be your character, because Sister White says we become like who we worship. And now, let's say that I, and those who agree with me, believe the God we worship never killed or destroyed anyone. What's going to happen to us. After all, we were only misguided ---- OOP! But, if you're wrong, how do you expect to be ready for Christ's Second Advent? In order to stand in the sight of God without Christ's interceding for us we must have Christ's character (Rev. 14:12).

Let's get ready for the Lamb!

[Lutz13]

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And then get this innexplicable response from Lutz13 (who claims to accept Ellen White as a Prophet)

Bob, when I see a contradiction now. I know I need to start digging deeper. I'm not willing to just accept it. By digging deeper, I see the bigger picture.

[Lutz13]

So, Bob, what are you trying to prove? Let's say you are right, God kills and destroys. Now, since that's your idea of the God you worship, that will be your character, because Sister White says we become like who we worship. And now, let's say that I, and those who agree with me, believe the God we worship never killed or destroyed anyone. What's going to happen to us. After all, we were only misguided ---- OOP! But, if you're wrong, how do you expect to be ready for Christ's Second Advent? In order to stand in the sight of God without Christ's interceding for us we must have Christ's character (Rev. 14:12).

Let's get ready for the Lamb!

Exactly! Which is why Jesus says: "the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."(John 16:2) If you worship a killer God, then you will kill just like you think He did. You may not think so now, but when the Spirit of God leaves, nothing will hold you back. The absence of good is pure evil.