BobRyan Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Well, one thing is for sure. We do not follow the law of Moses anymore. I do not see them (the writings of Moses) as inspired. Thank you for admitting to that point. It speaks volumes. When Christ said "scripture can not be broken" did He mean "all scripture except for whatever Moses wrote"??? When Paul said "All scripture is given by inspiration from God and is profitable for doctrine" did he really mean "all scripture except for whatever Moses wrote"? When Paul said "Honor your father and mother for this is the first command with a promise" Eph 6:2-4 did he mean "the first command in that old abolished scripture -- with a promise"?? in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Concerning Matt. 10:28, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul (the eternal soul?): but rather fear him (Satan) which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (in an eternally burn hell?)." This is one of the arguments for an Eternally Hell-Fire Doctrine. Besides, what makes you think Jesus is referring to Him, or His Father's killing power? 1. Just because the text is helpful to someone else -- does not mean that we have the authority to delete it. 2. What spin would you suggest for Matt 10:27-28 if NOT to call us to respect God? Then who IS it telling us to fear honor and respect -- the devil??? What would you have it mean? Recall that this is the chapter where Christ makes it clear that "if you fail to confess me before men" due to persecution -- then "I will not confess you before My Father and the Angels". (Vs 32-33) where once again He makes the point that the fear of God trumps the fear of sinful man. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Lutz13 Posted May 21, 2009 Author Posted May 21, 2009 Originally Posted By: Lutz13 Well, one thing is for sure. We do not follow the law of Moses anymore. I do not see them (the writings of Moses) as inspired. Thank you for admitting to that point. It speaks volumes. When Christ said "scripture can not be broken" did He mean "all scripture except for whatever Moses wrote"??? When Paul said "All scripture is given by inspiration from God and is profitable for doctrine" did he really mean "all scripture except for whatever Moses wrote"? When Paul said "Honor your father and mother for this is the first command with a promise" Eph 6:2-4 did he mean "the first command in that old abolished scripture -- with a promise"?? in Christ, Bob "Them", as in the laws of Moses. Quote
Lutz13 Posted May 21, 2009 Author Posted May 21, 2009 Originally Posted By: WilloMar Concerning Matt. 10:28, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul (the eternal soul?): but rather fear him (Satan) which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (in an eternally burn hell?)." This is one of the arguments for an Eternally Hell-Fire Doctrine. Besides, what makes you think Jesus is referring to Him, or His Father's killing power? 1. Just because the text is helpful to someone else -- does not mean that we have the authority to delete it. 2. What spin would you suggest for Matt 10:27-28 if NOT to call us to respect God? Then who IS it telling us to fear honor and respect -- the devil??? What would you have it mean? Recall that this is the chapter where Christ makes it clear that "if you fail to confess me before men" due to persecution -- then "I will not confess you before My Father and the Angels". in Christ, Bob Oh no, it is clearly saying be afraid of him. Yet in other scripture it says there is no fear in love. There are different types of fear. The fear I have for God, is deep respect, not the fear of emotion. Quote
BobRyan Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 "Fear Him who is able to destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" -- the terms "destroy" and "Body and Soul" and "Fiery Hell" are the "details" that give rise to the kind of Fear Jesus is speaking of... Or is Matthew yet another Bible author that is not inspired?? "The axe is laid to the root of the trees" said John the baptizer. The only one that needs to "fear" the sword of the government is the one who commits crime said Paul. There is no fear in obedience - but much fear in rebellion. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Lutz13 Posted May 21, 2009 Author Posted May 21, 2009 "Fear Him who is able to destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" -- the terms "destroy" and "Body and Soul" and "Fiery Hell" at the "details" that give rise to the kind of Fear Jesus is speaking of... Or is Matthew yet another Bible author that is not inspired?? in Christ, Bob Yes, He is saying be afraid. Does He say be afraid of God? Or be afraid of him who will ruin you. Clearly He can't be talking about the Father...If He was talking about the Father. Well I am sorry, if I am afraid of something, I am going to avoid it! Quote
Lutz13 Posted May 21, 2009 Author Posted May 21, 2009 Bob, I am not willing to go in a circle with you on this point. I am just going to agree to disagree so we can be civil towards one another. Quote
BobRyan Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 1. First read the text clearly and objectively. 2. Then apply the biased rationalization of your choice to avoid the point of the text. 3. Then compare the difference between the two. As I have observed Maxwell over the years -- it is that last step he never follows through with - and that has been "instructive" for this reader. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Lutz13 Posted May 21, 2009 Author Posted May 21, 2009 I have never read any of Maxwell's stuff. I will have to look into him. Quote
Lutz13 Posted May 21, 2009 Author Posted May 21, 2009 Quote: 1. First read the text clearly and objectively. 2. Then apply the biased rationalization of your choice to avoid the point of the text. 3. Then compare the difference between the two. As I have observed Maxwell over the years -- it is that last step he never follows through with - and that has been "instructive" for this reader. in Christ, Bob When I read scripture. I always stop and ask God what it means. Quote
Robert Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Because it has been claimed here that when the Bible states that God commanded Moses into a destructive act, that it was satan that was talking to Moses and Moses did not know the difference. This is very dangerous as it challenges the basic inspiration of Gods word. Any thoughts on that? Something perhaps to this effect: The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and He [God] moved David . . . to . . . number Israel and Judah (2 Sam. 24:2). Now Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel (1 Chron. 21:1) Quote
Robert Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 The moment we try to fit the limits of man on God -- we make His word out to be false. in Christ, Bob The moment you make God a sinner (for He cannot sin) that moment I fully reject Him for He is a devil. I will never accept a god who does evil.... God is not above His own law. Jesus came to fulfill that law. Where did He kill or murder? Oh, He didn't.... Quote
Robert Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 "Fear Him who is able to destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" -- the terms "destroy" and "Body and Soul" and "Fiery Hell" are the "details" that give rise to the kind of Fear Jesus is speaking of... Yes, fear...fear that you do not reject God. Fear your nature in leaving the living God. Fear, as did David, that God does not withdraw Himself from you because you have forsaken Him. I fear living outside God. I want God in my life for I know that He loves me more than Himself. There is no self-love in God's love. But for those who are careless and indifferent God will, when one's heart is fully hardened, abandon him/her. When that happens, especially in the end-times, this world will come apart because when God retreats His protection from sin goes with Him. Again, God says that He destroys because He assumes the blame until the day of atonement. I take it this concept is too hard for you to grasp? Or is it you like a god in your likeness after you nature? Quote
Robert Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Bob, I am not willing to go in a circle with you on this point. I am just going to agree to disagree so we can be civil towards one another. That's a good thing Lutz13, but I'm not at that level of maturity. I'll be uncivil with the boy for two can play that game! Go for it Bob...Pick on me! Quote
Robert Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Lutz13....I'll keep this short and sweet: I use to be afraid of God....He had His rules and if I didn't keep them I was threatened with a horrible, slow lingering death. That was the days of my legalism. Just ask my ex-wife how much of a butt I was then....I was a monster, just like the god I followed. I was in living hell, and I put my family through this all because I didn't know God. And it wasn't just me....The SDA deacon in my neighborhood use to get into fist fights with his boy because he saw God the same way I did. I can guarantee you that folks who believe like I use to from time to time act like a devil. Seen it...been there, done that. Case in point: I use to scare the hell out of the kids during worship. I'd read them all that hell and damnation stuff every Sabbath. I'd tell them be good or God will get you.... Then I began to hate God because I saw Him as a devil. Jesus, well He was alright, but God the Father???, pure fear. SO much that one day I had enough....Right in front of the kids I spun around and Bruce Lee'd a pic of God right off the wall. I was one screwed up person! Why? Because that's how Adventism (legalistic, traditional Adventism) presented Him to me. If it wasn't for folks that God sent in my life I would be an atheist. I've seen better, way better. I pity the folks who can't see this.... Rob Quote
Robert Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 I use to be afraid of God....He had His rules and if I didn't keep them I was threatened with a horrible, slow lingering death. For example: Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty. [EGW] 5 if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: 16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country. 17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed. 18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks. 19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out. 20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed. 25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. [Moses] I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and drain away your life. [Moses] My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless. [Moses] Quote
Lutz13 Posted May 21, 2009 Author Posted May 21, 2009 Quote: f it wasn't for folks that God sent in my life I would be an atheist. I've seen better, way better. I pity the folks who can't see this.... Yeah, I was heading onto that path too. I thank God for the parents and grandparents He has blessed me with. They had me keep wondering. Quote
Robert Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Quote: f it wasn't for folks that God sent in my life I would be an atheist. I've seen better, way better. I pity the folks who can't see this.... Yeah, I was heading onto that path too. I thank God for the parents and grandparents He has blessed me with. They had me keep wondering. God sent folks like Jack Sequeira, MM Campbell, Morris Vendon, and Robert Wieland. Jack helped me understand the gospel and God's love. Vendon helped me out of legalism. Wieland helped to me to understand SDA history and the 1888 issues. And last, but not least, Campbell helped me understand God's wrath..... I use to talk with Jack a lot, both personally and on the phone. Same with Robert W.....Campbell, I talked to her on the phone years ago. Vendon, well, he didn't take any [censored] off me when I tried to pull legalism on him. I love his dry humor. God sent these folks....Thank you God, I know you much better. Thanks! Rob Quote
Lutz13 Posted May 21, 2009 Author Posted May 21, 2009 Quote: God sent folks like Jack Sequeira, MM Campbell, Morris Vendon, and Robert Wieland. Jack helped me understand the gospel and God's love. Vendon helped me out of legalism. Wieland helped to me to understand SDA history and the 1888 issues. And last, but not least, Campbell helped me understand God's wrath..... I have been reading Jack's stuff. Very good! I also really enjoyed MM Campbell. Quote
Robert Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Quote: God sent folks like Jack Sequeira, MM Campbell, Morris Vendon, and Robert Wieland. Jack helped me understand the gospel and God's love. Vendon helped me out of legalism. Wieland helped to me to understand SDA history and the 1888 issues. And last, but not least, Campbell helped me understand God's wrath..... I have been reading Jack's stuff. Very good! I also really enjoyed MM Campbell. By the way, Jack and Robert W. agree with Campbell's book (Light on the dark side of God). I don't know about Vendon.... But you know it doesn't matter, I get my understanding through the HS.... Quote
Robert Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 Quote: God sent folks like Jack Sequeira, MM Campbell, Morris Vendon, and Robert Wieland. Jack helped me understand the gospel and God's love. Vendon helped me out of legalism. Wieland helped to me to understand SDA history and the 1888 issues. And last, but not least, Campbell helped me understand God's wrath..... I have been reading Jack's stuff. Very good! I also really enjoyed MM Campbell. On Jack...I agree with him 99%. On Campbell, on the question "does God kill?" I agree with her understanding 90% plus.....Somethings we just won't know here....And I agree with me 100%. Funny how it works that way, huh? teehe Quote
Lutz13 Posted May 22, 2009 Author Posted May 22, 2009 Quote: Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo You're doing the same to the Bible. You pick what seems right that agrees with your notion, and explain it away when it contradicts you. Quote: Not wishing to appear partial, however that's the way above comes across to me. Just curious. Do you guys not find any contradictions in scripture? Quote
Woody Posted May 22, 2009 Posted May 22, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Bible.... You're doing the same to the Bible. You pick what seems right that agrees with your notion, and explain it away when it contradicts you. Not wishing to appear partial, however that's the way above comes across to me. Cheers! This must be the first time that Gerry is just blank and has no opinion on an issue. Well ... on second thought ... he has been blank before. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
LifeHiscost Posted May 22, 2009 Posted May 22, 2009 Some things just do not add up for me. Like when Moses made a serpent of brass and put it on a pole.(Numbers 21:9) That makes no sense to me. At one time, Lutz13, I had the same difficulty with that text. However when it came to my attention in the New Testament that Jesus became sin for us, and we need to look to the cross to understand what Divinity did for us, it became more clear that those souls back then were manifesting belief in the coming Savior, sufficient by the looking upon the bronze serpent, to deliver us from all of what this world represents. "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."2 Cor 5:21 NASB "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." Romans 15:4 KJV One problem that exists for those who dispense with the Old testament is that they have no history to rely on to guide them in understanding what the New Testament means. Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
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