Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Because it has been claimed here that when the Bible states that God commanded Moses into a destructive act, that it was satan that was talking to Moses and Moses did not know the difference.

This is very dangerous as it challenges the basic inspiration of Gods word.

Any thoughts on that?

Something perhaps to this effect:

The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and He [God] moved David . . . to . . . number Israel and Judah (2 Sam. 24:2).

Now Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel (1 Chron. 21:1)

The anger of the Lord moved David to number Israel is the same as Satan moved David to number Israel.

Something happened to cause God to retreat and the result is that Satan moved David to number Israel.

Again, God assumes the blame because in His sovereignty He retreated. This allowed Satan to come in....

The same is true with Pharaoh. The Bible states that God harden Pharaoh's heart, but then it also states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

[LifeHiscost]

And I agree with me 100%. Funny how it works that way, huh? teehe

It doesn't work that way for everyone, and it can be as dangerous as putting our trust in other men. Always good to consider whether truth is being presented when it's source is for the definite desire to be helpful. However every man has their weaknesses, and if we choose to follow them without question, we will fall in the same pit.

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."Proverbs 3:5

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help." Psalm 146:3 KJV

"And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee."Psalm 9:10 KJV

Regards!

[Robert]

The anger of the Lord moved David to number Israel is the same as Satan moved David to number Israel.

Deut 31:17 Then My anger [the anger of the Lord] shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

God's anger = His wrath = I will forsake them = I will hide my face from them = Our God is not among us.

What happens when God retreats?

"Many evils and troubles shall befall them...."

What happened when Pharaoh hardened his heart against God?

"Many evils and troubles shall befall them...."

What happened when David numbered Israel?

"Many evils and troubles shall befall them...."

What happens when the world renounces Christ in the last days?

"Many evils and troubles shall befall them...."

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

And I agree with me 100%. Funny how it works that way, huh? teehe

It doesn't work that way for everyone, and it can be as dangerous as putting our trust in other men.

Who said I put my trust in men?

Rob

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

You're doing the same to the Bible. You pick what seems right that agrees with your notion, and explain it away when it contradicts you.

Quote:

Not wishing to appear partial, however that's the way above comes across to me.

Just curious. Do you guys not find any contradictions in scripture?

Some texts I've had to put on the back burner until something, someone or sometime has passed since I first read the text, but at this point of time I've found no continuing misapprehensions in the Revelation of Jesus love for all, especially for those that have committed the most agregious sins against the Lord Who is Love.

He abides by what He asks of us.

"“Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven." Matthew 18:21-23 NKJV

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

It doesn't work that way for everyone, and it can be as dangerous as putting our trust in other men. [/quote']

Who said I put my trust in men?

Rob

You did mention the Holy Spirit. However I doubt it was the Holy Spirit Who was leading when it was accepted that keeping the Law of God is a curse. OTOH the opposite of keeping the Law is what has thrust the world into the brink of the extinction of mankind.

And I also remember the names Jack S., Morris Venden, and Campbell. I happen to enjoy listening to them also, for the insight they have, as well as others not always Adventist, for recognition of what is Truth is not as effective for salvation as Who is Truth.

"...and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."John 8:32 NASB

"I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."John 12:50 NASB

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."John 17:3 KJV

And that's all New Covenant!

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

This Thread reminds me of that..

Now, some wills say, they have 1,000 + gods, and that is kinda true, it has evolved into that, but their theologians would say God is so big, that those are really manisfitations of God.

This thread title reminds me of that.

As to the underlined above, maybe that's because the blind are all grabbing ahold of a different part of the elephant and attempting to run with it.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV

Blessings!

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Some texts I've had to put on the back burner until something, someone or sometime has passed since I first read the text, but at this point of time I've found no continuing misapprehensions in the Revelation of Jesus love for all, especially for those that have committed the most agregious sins against the Lord Who is Love.

He abides by what He asks of us.

"“Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven." Matthew 18:21-23 NKJV

I am happy that has worked for you. It wasn't that easy for me. Even believing in God wasn't easy for me. I was not ok with text that contradicted.

For example, what are your thoughts on these?

"Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel"(1 Chronicles 21:1)

"Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say "go, number Israel and Judah."(2 Samuel 24:1)

[Twilight]

But you have not answered the point Lutz. :-)

There has been presented on here the idea that Moses was talking to Satan and that he did not know it, that those commands that the Bible says God gave to Moses, (who spoke to Moses face to face), was in fact Satan and Moses did not realise.

That my friend, on its very own, should set off alarm bells.

This teaching undermines the inspiration of Moses writings, therefore has to be rejected on that point alone.

Mark

[Twilight]

Quote:

That to accept this teaching, means I have to throw Moses out as uninspired.

Well, one thing is for sure. We do not follow the law of Moses anymore. I do not see them as inspired. "The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations"(Psalms 33:11) That and stoning people to death has been abolished, among other things.

Also, please do not think that I am throwing out Moses. I am just on a journey to understand what went on. Some things just do not add up for me. Like when Moses made a serpent of brass and put it on a pole.(Numbers 21:9) That makes no sense to me. These people looked at this brass serpent(an idol for sure) to be cured. I do however believe God took something evil and made good out of it. There are many other things.

That you do not think Moses was inspired is to place your own ideas and theories above his, it is to claim a higher inspiration.

This is beginning to become clear to me, how dangerous this teaching really is.

Mark

[Twilight]

Quote:

1. First read the text clearly and objectively.

2. Then apply the biased rationalization of your choice to avoid the point of the text.

3. Then compare the difference between the two.

As I have observed Maxwell over the years -- it is that last step he never follows through with - and that has been "instructive" for this reader.

in Christ,

Bob

When I read scripture. I always stop and ask God what it means.

But how do you know it is God talking to you?

If Moses did not know and he spoke with God face to face?

This is not intended as a personal attack, but a genuine question.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Because it has been claimed here that when the Bible states that God commanded Moses into a destructive act, that it was satan that was talking to Moses and Moses did not know the difference.

This is very dangerous as it challenges the basic inspiration of Gods word.

Any thoughts on that?

Something perhaps to this effect:

The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and He [God] moved David . . . to . . . number Israel and Judah (2 Sam. 24:2).

Now Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel (1 Chron. 21:1)

That is very different to saying that Moses did not realise who was addressing him...

One is talking about the perception of Gods actions after the fact.

The other is stating that Moses was not inspired at all, because he did not know who he was talking to.

Can I ask you a direct question Robert?

Do you believe Moses was inspired by God?

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

"Fear Him who is able to destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" -- the terms "destroy" and "Body and Soul" and "Fiery Hell" are the "details" that give rise to the kind of Fear Jesus is speaking of...

Yes, fear...fear that you do not reject God. Fear your nature in leaving the living God. Fear, as did David, that God does not withdraw Himself from you because you have forsaken Him.

I fear living outside God. I want God in my life for I know that He loves me more than Himself. There is no self-love in God's love.

But for those who are careless and indifferent God will, when one's heart is fully hardened, abandon him/her. When that happens, especially in the end-times, this world will come apart because when God retreats His protection from sin goes with Him.

Again, God says that He destroys because He assumes the blame until the day of atonement. I take it this concept is too hard for you to grasp? Or is it you like a god in your likeness after you nature?

Or is it you like a god in your likeness after you nature?

Can I ask you a question Robert?

If someone does not agree with our position, does that give us the right to judge their character and try to diminish them?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Lutz13....I'll keep this short and sweet:

I use to be afraid of God....He had His rules and if I didn't keep them I was threatened with a horrible, slow lingering death. That was the days of my legalism.

Just ask my ex-wife how much of a butt I was then....I was a monster, just like the god I followed. I was in living hell, and I put my family through this all because I didn't know God. And it wasn't just me....The SDA deacon in my neighborhood use to get into fist fights with his boy because he saw God the same way I did. I can guarantee you that folks who believe like I use to from time to time act like a devil. Seen it...been there, done that. Case in point: I use to scare the hell out of the kids during worship. I'd read them all that hell and damnation stuff every Sabbath. I'd tell them be good or God will get you....

Then I began to hate God because I saw Him as a devil. Jesus, well He was alright, but God the Father???, pure fear. SO much that one day I had enough....Right in front of the kids I spun around and Bruce Lee'd a pic of God right off the wall. I was one screwed up person! Why? Because that's how Adventism (legalistic, traditional Adventism) presented Him to me.

If it wasn't for folks that God sent in my life I would be an atheist. I've seen better, way better. I pity the folks who can't see this....

Rob

I also have inherited a violent streak from my father.

Yet the Lord has given me and is constantly giving me victory over that.

Yet I do not accept this teaching.

So it is not necessarily the case that this is linked.

In some cases, a person who thinks God is a vengeful unloving God, can take these traits and use them.

But a person that accepts Gods love, justice and judgement can and will get victory over these sins.

Just because love ultimately destroys sin, does not make someone who accepts that murderous.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Some things just do not add up for me. Like when Moses made a serpent of brass and put it on a pole.(Numbers 21:9) That makes no sense to me.

At one time, Lutz13, I had the same difficulty with that text. However when it came to my attention in the New Testament that Jesus became sin for us, and we need to look to the cross to understand what Divinity did for us, it became more clear that those souls back then were manifesting belief in the coming Savior, sufficient by the looking upon the bronze serpent, to deliver us from all of what this world represents.

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."2 Cor 5:21 NASB

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

Romans 15:4 KJV

One problem that exists for those who dispense with the Old testament is that they have no history to rely on to guide them in understanding what the New Testament means.

Regards!

To add to this, Ellen White clearly states that it was Jesus who commanded Moses to make the snake...

[Robert]

That you do not think Moses was inspired is to place your own ideas and theories above his, it is to claim a higher inspiration.

Tell you what, Twilight, you follow Moses then....

Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

The Bible goes on to say, 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke [i.e., the law of Moses] that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.

The law of Moses contains the old covenant. If you wish to focus on that and become entrenched in legalism that's you option, but not me.

Romans 10: 4 Christ is the end of the law [i.e., the law of Moses] so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. 5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will by them live." 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says:...9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Like I said the law of Moses is the Old Covenant. Hence there's much confusion in it for those who are of the faith.

[Robert]

Do you believe Moses was inspired by God?

Mark

I smell a trap....I see a man who refuses light and then tries to muddy the water by going to Moses and the Old Covenant.

When it comes to the Old Covenant we need to stay clear of it. All the mayhem tied in it was never God's intent. It, the law of Moses, was given to open the eyes of Israel that's there's none righteous no not one. If you wish to be "under law" then you are under the reign of the "ministry of death". (2 Cor 3:7)

[Robert]

Can I ask you a question Robert?

If someone does not agree with our position, does that give us the right to judge their character and try to diminish them?

Mark :-)

Those that believe this view that God destroys, kills, murders, etc reflect it in their own lives. It is a law of human nature. Of course the self-righteous will deny it and play the "you are judging me card".

Rob

[Robert]

Just because love ultimately destroys sin....

Love does not have in it the seed of destruction. That is self-love, not agape. Learn the difference and then you will have light.

[Robert]

Ethical Problems

Despite the seemingly clear way in which Scripture presents Him, the traditional view of Christianity's God is heavy with ethical problems that have puzzled reasonable men and women from time immemorial. As long as humans have reasoned on the subject of God, they have wondered about His destructive side. Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, eternal hell fire. . . . How can a God who punishes so cruelly also say: "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die?" "How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? . . . My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred." "My heart sobs like a flute for Moab, sobs like a flute for the men of Kirheres; that accumulated treasure all lost" (Ezekiel 33:11; Hosea 11:8; Jeremiah 48:36, JB). Would not humans manifesting this personality split be considered psychotic?

How can God exercise such "cruel and unusual" punishment as drowning the world, burning cities and the humans in them, and still be considered loving and just, as He and His adherents claim? He extended Himself to the lengths of Calvary to preserve our freedom of choice. But is choice really free, with God standing over us to destroy us if we choose wrong? After enduring the cross to redeem humanity, thus showing His loving character before the universe, why does He, in the end, reverse it all by executing those whose choices He does not like?

How can a God who kills command His people not to kill and yet to be like Him? How does the mild and gentle Jesus reflect the character of the "fire-breathing" Old Testament God He came to reveal? Perhaps nothing has contributed more to the advancement of atheism than these perplexing unanswered questions of Christianity. [MM Campbell]

[SivartM]

God is longsuffering, and doesn't want anyone to perish, but eventually He has to destroy evil, because He is just. I think the reason people are afraid of God being a big, scary out-to-get-you monster is that they don't understand His loving mercy in destroying evil to protect His children. When God destroys Satan and His followers (willing followers, I might remind you), He is doing what is just and getting rid of evil forever. Same in the Old Testament; when people got so bad that God knew they would never turn back to Him, it was just to destroy them to protect His children from them and their evil influences. If God had not destroyed the Canaanites, and Sodom and Gomorrah, etc., then I imagine that terrible things would have come from them. We just have to trust that whatever God does is right and not question Him by our standards of "just" and "unjust", because God can see all time and knows exactly what to do.

[Gerr]

Quote:

I am happy that has worked for you. It wasn't that easy for me. Even believing in God wasn't easy for me. I was not ok with text that contradicted.

For example, what are your thoughts on these?

"Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel"(1 Chronicles 21:1)

"Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say "go, number Israel and Judah."(2 Samuel 24:1)

Perhaps you can get an insight on this by reading 1 Ki 22. Read it carefully. I think you will find there is no contradiction after all.

[Gerr]

The ethical dilemma is only in the mind of those who refuse to see that God's throne is founded not only on love/mercy but also on justice.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Love/mercy without justice is anarchy. Justice without love/mercy is tyranny.

[Gerr]

For love to be true, has to be willing to eliminate evil, otherwise it (love) must love evil also!!!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Do you believe Moses was inspired by God?

Mark

I smell a trap....I see a man who refuses light and then tries to muddy the water by going to Moses and the Old Covenant.

When it comes to the Old Covenant we need to stay clear of it. All the mayhem tied in it was never God's intent. It, the law of Moses, was given to open the eyes of Israel that's there's none righteous no not one. If you wish to be "under law" then you are under the reign of the "ministry of death". (2 Cor 3:7)

This is not a question of covenants.

This is a question of whether you think Moses was inspired or not?

Mark