Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Sounds so pious, doesn't it? No self-love. But you keep ignoring the second great commandment: YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOU LOVE YOURSELF.

Yes, you are to take that selfish love you have of yourself, and use it for your neighbor instead.

To love your neighbor as you love yourself has NOTHING to do with NOT loving yourself!!! How can you love your neighbor as you love yourself if you have no love for self? It is talking about proportionate love. The problem with our world and in Satan's world is self become #1. In Christ's kingdom, those He considers #1 are those who serve! Now, if one wants to go the second mile and love your neighbor even MORE than you love yourself, well and good. Selflessness does NOT mean NO self! Notice that God creates/-ed no two alike. Individuality, the very notion of SELF is a gift!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Here are some definitions of the word

Sorry, those are human definitions. Use God's word...use agape...

Rob

"You shall agapao your neighbor as you agapao yourself."

There.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

FE 82.1/White, E. G. (1923; 2002). Fundamentals of Christian Education, Instruction for the Home, the School, and the Church; Fundamentals of Christian Education; Christian Education; Fundamentals of Christian Education (82). Southern Publishing Association. {2T 259.1} Testimonies for the Church, Volume 2; Testimonies, Volume 2. 1855; 2002 (259). P White, E. G. (1923; 2002). Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers (245). Pacific Press Publishing Association.ress Publishing Association.

As usual....Spin off in another direction. You are trying to legitimize sin. You call evil [self-love], good ....This is the same reason you see God as a minster of wrath.....This is why I oppose you and will continue to oppose you. You're the old guard of Adventism. You can't see the forest for the trees. Will you ever change, or must God allow you to go through Job's experience???

Rob

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Me the legalist legitimizing sin? How hilarious! ALL self-love sin? That's why your definition of agape love is sick! You cling to EGW like superglue when you like what she wrote, but now I'm spinning off in another direction because she makes a statement that balances a statement she made that you have taken to its most extreme meaning?

[Gerr]

Twist Job all you want, but I'll stick to the testimony of the ONE who cannot lie, who said of Job:

"Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?"

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If you really believed that Jesus wants every follower of His to have no hole, no home, no possessions, no education, then why don't YOU do it?

Because,

1] I'm not under the law.

Let me see how your reasoning goes. Here on earth where there is so much lawlessness and suffering, believers don't have to obey any law. But in heaven where there are no bad people and where no one wants to harm anyone, they are placed under marshall law?

Quote:

2] I still have self-love in my life

3] I'm not blind to it, like some folks (you)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. I am defending the fact that there is a healthy self-love, and now you are charging me with blindness that I can't see that I have self-love?

Quote:

4] And therefore I need Christ's righteousness in the judgment instead of my own filthy righteousness.

Claiming the obedience of Christ to the law for one's own while disregarding the same law is not faith but presumption.

[Gerr]

Quote:

In heaven this principle brings wealth, but here on earth if you walk as Jesus you too will share His poverty. Why? Because if you live a truly righteous life here (one where there's no thoughts of self) you too would say, “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. [RH 7-4-1912]

Rob

Are you a follower? Are you sharing His poverty that you claim is demanded of every follower? Sold your home yet and given to your neighbor?

[Robert]

Twist Job all you want, but I'll stick to the testimony of the ONE who cannot lie, who said of Job:

"Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?"

He didn't lie....That was how Job viewed himself. Those who are too busy justifying themselves don't have to worry about God justifying them. The Pharisee and the publican is a good example.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Instead of looking at the law, I need to look to Christ.

Is it possible there's still something you need to learn about the law? That the law in fact mirrors the holy, just, good, and loving character of God?

"So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." Rom 7:12.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Twist Job all you want, but I'll stick to the testimony of the ONE who cannot lie, who said of Job:

"Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?"

He didn't lie....That was how Job viewed himself. Those who are too busy justifying themselves don't have to worry about God justifying them. The Pharisee and the publican is a good example.

That's my problem with your method of interpretation of Scripture. The Bible says something and even quotes God and you say, no, that's not what it or He means. What is clear, you obfuscate. What is not so clear, you claim it is very plain. "Did God actually say, 'You shall not eat of any tree in the garden?'"

[Robert]

Quote:

In heaven this principle brings wealth, but here on earth if you walk as Jesus you too will share His poverty. Why? Because if you live a truly righteous life here (one where there's no thoughts of self) you too would say, “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. [RH 7-4-1912]

Rob

Are you a follower? Are you sharing His poverty that you claim is demanded of every follower? Sold your home yet and given to your neighbor?

Look at the context of that question:

"Then a teacher of the law [a legalist] came to him and said, "Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go. 20 Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head." [Matt 8:19,20]

What is Jesus telling the law oriented man? IF you wish to follow me then come live my life of no self-seeking. The result? Poverty!

Well, let's look at EGW's quote again:

"In heaven none will think of self...but ...will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Have you tried living solely for your neighbor with no thought to yourself (besides, as Paul states, "food & clothing"*)?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

He didn't lie....That was how Job viewed himself. Those who are too busy justifying themselves don't have to worry about God justifying them. The Pharisee and the publican is a good example.

[/quote']

That's my problem with your method of interpretation of Scripture. The Bible says something and even quotes God and you say, no, that's not what it or He means.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

And the LORD said unto him, "Who hath made man's mouth? Or who maketh the dumb or deaf, or the seeing or the blind? Have not I, the LORD?

[Robert]

Quote:

Instead of looking at the law, I need to look to Christ.

"So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." Rom 7:12.

And it was given to make matter worse....Now you know you are a sinner!

So the law made things worse.

Romans 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Note, not "sins, but "sin"....Sin is the love of self. All your sins is based on iniquity (your bent to self)....

Gal 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions [to turn sin into transgression], till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. ...21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin

So, as I said, the law made matters worse. Now grace doesn't look so bad, huh? That was God's purpose in the giving of the law.

[Robert]

"So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." Rom 7:12.

Yes, and to clean the universe it requires that God abandon you to the 2nd death! So that's good, but not for you, huh? teehe

[Robert]

Here on earth where there is so much lawlessness and suffering, believers don't have to obey any law.

[Robert]

I am defending the fact that there is a healthy self-love

You mean, "I am defending the fact that there is a healthy iniquity"....A healthy "bent-to-self"

[Robert]

The Bible says something and even quotes God and you say, no, that's not what it or He means.

'

Luke 22:27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table?

Okay...got me....Jesus said the one who is being served is the greater. He's the man....Go to a nice, expensive restaurant and "who's the man?"! Jesus says the big shot being served! So, I guess you are right, there's a healthy self love....

Wait, I found something else:

But I am among you as one who serves.

Hmmm?

[Just*]

Quote:

Instead of looking at the law, I need to look to Christ.

Is it possible there's still something you need to learn about the law? That the law in fact mirrors the holy, just, good, and loving character of God?

"So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." Rom 7:12.

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Rom 10:2-3

Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen. Heb 13:21

To whom coming, as unto a living stone 1 Peter 2:4

[Robert]

Agape and the Great Controversy

When Satan rebelled against God in heaven [Revelation 12:7-9], he was really rebelling against the God’s agape love the spirit of His law [Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:10; Galatians 5:13-14]. The idea that “love (agape) seeketh not her own” (i.e., self) [1 Corinthians 13:5] was too restrictive to Lucifer. Consequently he objected to it and introduced the principle of self-love or eros [Ezekiel 28:15; Isaiah 14:12-14]. Therefore, ever since his fall, the enemy of God and man (Satan) has hated the concept of agape. When this concept was restored to the human race through the preaching of the gospel, he naturally was ready to attack it with all his might [Revelation 12:10-12]. Hence, the very first thing he attacked in the Christian church was not the sabbath or the state of the dead; these truths came later, but he zeroed in first on the concept of God’s agape love.

After the disciples had passed away from the scene, the leadership of the church fell into the hands of the church “Fathers,” who were of Greek origin. Immediately the great battle to substitute eros concepts for agape began.

The Greeks were insulted that the New Testament writers ignored the highest form of love in their language (heavenly eros) and used an obscure word (agape) instead. They felt that the disciples of Christ, who were all Jews (except Luke), did not really understand their language and, therefore, a correction had to be made. The first to attempt this was Marcion (died in 160 A.D.). He was succeeded by Origen (died in 254 A.D.) who actually changed John’s sublime statement “God is agape” [1 John 4:8] to “God is eros.” However, the battle did not stop there; it continued until we come to Augustine, the fourth century bishop of Hippo (North Africa) and one of the great “fathers” of Roman Catholic theology.

Augustine realized how futile it was to substitute eros for agape. Instead he did a very smart thing. By using Greek logic, he took the concepts of agape as well as eros and married the two together, producing a synthesis which he called caritas (Latin) and from which we get our English word charity, the word that is often used in our KJV for agape. This word caritas was not only accepted by Christendom but became the key word to define divine and Christian love in Roman Catholic theology. Its meaning was a mixture of agape and eros so that the gospel was perverted from “Not I, but Christ” [Galatians 2:20] to “I plus Christ,” a concept of the gospel still prevalent today. The moment the pure meaning of agape was corrupted, the gospel became perverted with self-love, and the Christian church lost its power and was plunged into darkness. It was not until the Reformation (16th Century) that Luther realized the problem and tried to break the synthesis. However, the church today is to a large degree still groping in darkness as to the true meaning of the gospel. [Jack Sequeira]

[LifeHiscost]

Huh? Sorry, God doesn't force the will (as in predetermined). That's an attribute of Satan. Re-read those two statements:

God, being able to see in the future and knowing David's nature of wishing to please the Lord, had no intention of forcing David to do as he (David) had chosen. Watching the responses of some makes it easy to determine those who thrive in cooperative efforts, such as David and God together, and those who are bound and determined to have their own way dominate, such as King Saul and God, irregardless of the end result.

Just as God did not force King Saul to do as he had been instructed, considering the hearts earnest intent, just so God allowed the choices of both men to develop in the manner that brought about the eternal consequences of each man's choice.

"...God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."" 1 Samuel 16:7 NASB

Regards!

[Robert]

?

Too deep for me, LifeHisCost.

Rob

[Robert]

Gerry, read this:

Sin Defined

The Bible uses some 12 different Hebrew words in the Old Testament to define sin and about five Greek words in the New Testament. These can be combined into three basic concepts. All three are expressed in Psalm 51:2,3: “Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin. For I know my transgressions, and my sin is always before me” (emphasis supplied).

1. Iniquity.

The root meaning of this word is “crooked” or “bent.” Scripture uses it to describe our natural spiritual condition. The term iniquity does not primarily refer to an act of sin but to a condition of sinfulness. As a result of the Fall, men and women are by nature spiritually “bent.” Love of self is the driving force of our natures. Paul defines this as “the law of sin and death” that is at work in our lives [Romans 8:2; cf. 7:23]. It is this condition that underlies all our sinning and makes us slaves to sin [see Romans 3:9-12; 7:14]. The following texts describe our spiritually bent condition.

* Psalm 51:5. “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” Since David was physically handsome [see 1 Samuel 16:12], he is speaking here of his spiritual condition. From his very conception and birth, he was shaped in iniquity. We are born with a nature that is bent toward sin or self.

* Isaiah 53:6. “We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.” This verse makes two points. First, everyone of us has gone astray because we have all followed the natural bent to our “own way.” Second, this bent to follow our own way, this self-centeredness, is the iniquity that was laid upon Christ, our Sin Bearer. When He “condemned sin in sinful man” on the cross [Romans 8:3], it was his bent to sin that He condemned. Hence, in spite of our sinful state, there is “no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” [Romans 8:1].

* Isaiah 64:6. “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.” Because we are “sinful at birth” [Psalm 51:5], all the righteousness we produce through our own efforts is like a filthy rag before God; it is polluted with self-love. In contrast to the filthy garments of our own self-righteousness [see Zechariah 3:3,4], Christ offers us the white robe of His righteousness so that we may be truly clothed and that “cover [our] shameful nakedness” [Revelation 3:18].

* Matthew 7:22,23. “Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” The judgment will expose as iniquity our self-righteous acts, even those done in the name of Christ. Jesus will clearly identify such works motivated by self-love as works of iniquity. Do our works originate from Christ and, therefore, spring from the motive of self-sacrificing love? Or do they originate from self, “to make a good impression outwardly” [Galatians 6:12]? Are they works of faith, the result of a genuine relationship with Christ? Or are we working in His name without really knowing Him?

Once we understand all that is involved in iniquity, we will realize that nothing good dwells in us [see Romans 7:18]. We will then begin to hunger and thirst after the righteousness of Christ offered to us so freely in the gospel.

Iniquity, therefore, is simply the desire to seek our own way. We are born with this bent. It is this condition that makes it impossible for us, apart from a Savior, to be genuinely righteous, because God’s law requires even our motives to be pure and unselfish [see Matthew 5:20-22, 27, 28].

[LifeHiscost]

"For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us."

2 Corinthians 1:20 KJV Underlined mine LHC

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation"2 Corinthians 5:17 NIV

Regards! peace

I believe there are people out there with this love. I know for a fact I do not have it yet. However, I am not focusing on that. What is important is for me to keep my eyes up on Jesus. Then He can mold me into Him.

[teresaq]

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Just turn to 1 Cor 13 & Ex 20:1-18, if you think that what I described above is merely human love.

Gerry, what I have a hard time with is. This love you keep describing is saying God is going to raise up people who He has already burned, just to burn them up again. How is this even close to love?

a little bit of study shows that God doesnt burn anyone up at the second coming, which this seems to refer to. at the second coming the people turn on each other and there is a massive slaughter.

[Robert]

The Bible says something and even quotes God and you say, no, that's not what it or He means.

Here's what the Scholars say on the book of Job:

General Information

The Book of Job, in the Old Testament of the Bible, is a complex wisdom writing that uses a blend of prose and poetry in dramatic form .... The principal figure of the book is Job, a pious Jew afflicted with disease and stripped of all his goods. The free and imaginative transformations of the Job figure are literarily and intellectually comparable to Shakespeare's treatment of Hamlet and Goethe's use of Faust. The identity of the author, usually dated 600 - 400 BC, is completely unknown.

Throughout the drama, Job asserts his innocence of wrong, thereby rejecting the traditional view that suffering is the result of sin. The humble and patient Job who bears his sufferings as proofs of piety, however, becomes the raging and insistent Job pressing relentlessly for divine vindication in the dialogue that forms the main part of the book (chaps. 3 - 31). The argument is pursued through three cycles of speeches in which Job's three friends - Eliphaz, Bilbad, and Zophar - chide the hero and he, in answering them, challenges God. Job's final self defense and call upon the deity is answered by God's speech from a whirlwind in which Job is invited to trust in the divine omniscience and power.

Okay, given that, let's look at Job:

Job:1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the Lord, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

Okay, lets think this out...Wouldn't God know where Satan came from? Yes....Then why the question? Anyway, it's written like a play.

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

Now wait...that's the dialog? Just, "where did you come from" and the very next question, "Have you considered my servant Job?" Isn't something missing here? Yes...it's like a play and we don't know what the full story is until we've read the whole thing.

So anyway, Satan pops up from nowhere and God asks him where he is from. Then God brings up Job out of the blue. Why?

So far we have,

1] (God to Satan) Where did you come from?

2] (Satan to God) From planet earth

3] (God to Satan) What about righteous Job?

4] (Satan to God) Yeah, but all the things he does is because you bless him. He is doing it all for self-centered reasons. Abandon him and he'll curse you to your face.

5] (God to Satan) Okay, I'll back off....

The thing is why did God so easily back off? That's why you have to read and understand the whole book.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

theses texts were not at the beginning of the book.

So? Do you just discount them because they don't agree with a few misunderstood statements at the beginning of the book of Job?

this comment was taken out of context, nor were my other comments dealt with. since this appears to be more about you forcing your view on others than any kind of discussion i will leave it to any others who wish to engage with you. i dont.

if you are coming from the "character of God" perspective, believe me you are doing the movement a great disservice. they do not twist and manipulate texts to go contrary to the great God of heaven.