Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Why do we believe God acts violently?

When He finds it necessary, yes!

"And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah"Genesis 13:10 KJV

Where do we find in the Word that the Lord stepped back to allow the devil to do the destruction? As far as the souls that were destroyed, the Lord did step back earlier to allow the free will of the Sodomites to debauch themselves, essentially destroying themselves. The destruction of their bodies by fire is properly noted to be of God.

"....but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake." Genesis 18:22-26,32 KJV

"And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:

For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it." Genesis 19:12,13 KJV

It might be argued this to be God of the OC. However was His character of Love different during that span of time?

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness."1 Corinthians 10:1-5 KJV

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."Hebrews 13:8 All underlined mine LHC

Regards!

Amen brother :-)

Mark

[Lutz13]

Quote:

When He finds it necessary, yes!

"And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah"Genesis 13:10 KJV

Where do we find in the Word that the Lord stepped back to allow the devil to do the destruction? As far as the souls that were destroyed, the Lord did step back earlier to allow the free will of the Sodomites to debauch themselves, essentially destroying themselves. The destruction of their bodies by fire is properly noted to be of God.

"....but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake." Genesis 18:22-26,32 KJV

"And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:

For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it." Genesis 19:12,13 KJV

It might be argued this to be God of the OC. However was His character of Love different during that span of time?

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness."1 Corinthians 10:1-5 KJV

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."Hebrews 13:8 All underlined mine LHC

Regards!

So Satan and God take turns destroying cities? Interesting.

"Those who see you will gaze at you, and consider you saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?"(Isaiah 14:16-17)Thankfully we are free to worship whomever we want. I choose the Creator, who doesn't destroy like men do. "Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world, If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here"(John 18:36)

[Guest WilloMar]

Probation has closed for the organizational Seventh-day Adventist Church. And, like Israel, we don’t realize it as members. E. G. White said, in 5T 211: “Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God.” (And what is the wrath of God? ---- “God gave them over,” Ron. 1:18-28. She continues: “The ancient men [Ezekiel 9:6], those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust.”

We should prayerfully read Ezek. 8:15-9:6. It tells of those who believe they’re worshiping the Creator on the Sabbath, but are actually worshiping the destroyer, the entity that represents him, ---- the sun. They’ve rejected new light: “But while the light has continued to increase, the church has not advanced proportionately. The fine gold has gradually become dim, and deadness and formality have come in to cripple the energies of the church. Their abundant privileges and opportunities have not led God's people onward and upward to purity and holiness. A faithful improvement of the talents God has entrusted to them would greatly increase those talents. Where much is given, much will be required. Those only who faithfully accept and appreciate the light God has given us, and who take a high, noble stand in self-denial and self-sacrifice, will be channels of light to the world. Those who do not advance will retrograde, even on the very borders of the heavenly Canaan. It has been revealed to me that our faith and our works in no way correspond to the light of truth bestowed.” 5T 534

Here is another example of God’s wrath: “He who presides over His church and the destinies of nations is carrying forward the last work to be accomplished for this world. To His angels He gives the commission to execute His judgments (don’t stop here). Let the ministers awake, let them take in the situation. The work of judgment begins at the sanctuary (our church). ‘And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar.’ Read Ezekiel 9:2-7. The command is, ‘Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary (the last church in the prophetic time of the 7 churches). Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.’ Saith God, ‘I will recompense their way upon their head (“God gave them up”).’” TM 431, 2

Let’s prepare to meet our Lord!

[Robert]

"And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah" Genesis 13:10 KJV

Where do we find in the Word that the Lord stepped back to allow the devil to do the destruction?

Okay...that does it! I'm dealing with spiritually ignorant folks! You guys repeating the same lame thoughts gets old.

Who told you Satan did it? Not me....The natural world is dangerous. Sin has affected our world. God is holding back the effects of sin....When He steps back things come apart just like the boy with his finger in the dike example I gave 2 billions times...

Now, who told you God didn't back off. Show me where He said, "Fire and brimstone rain down on these cities...." Yes? Yeah, big assumption just like I thought!

Again, God's wrath is passive. He retreats when He is rejected. Rob

[Robert]

Amen brother :-)

Mark

no, not amen....That's sick....So be it lord...kill'm all. Sick!

Man I can't tell the difference between Satan and the god you create....

Rob

[Robert]

Quote:

I will not destroy it for ten's sake." Genesis 18:22-26,32 KJV

I killed Saul

I hardened Pharaoh's heart

I will strike the shepherd

I will send strong delusion

You are right, God doesn't change. Where He is rejected He retreats. Why would He act different? Agape does not force neither does it kill and destroy.

Rob

[Lutz13]

More to think about:

God never required animal sacrifices. "But go and learn what this means: I desire mercy and not sacrifice.; For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."(Matthew 9:13)"For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."(Hosea 6:6) "Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my Soul? He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you, but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?"(Micah 6:7-8) "For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that is may be well with you.' Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward."(Jeremiah 7:22-24) "For you do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart, These, O God, You will not despise."(Psalms 51:16-17)

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Okay...that does it! I'm dealing with spiritually ignorant folks! You guys repeating the same lame thoughts gets old.

Robert...Sad as it is, what WilloMar said is very true, and is why we keep going in this circle.

Quote:

Probation has closed for the organizational Seventh-day Adventist Church. And, like Israel, we don’t realize it as members. E. G. White said, in 5T 211: “Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God.” (And what is the wrath of God? ---- “God gave them over,” Ron. 1:18-28. She continues: “The ancient men [Ezekiel 9:6], those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust.”

We should prayerfully read Ezek. 8:15-9:6. It tells of those who believe they’re worshiping the Creator on the Sabbath, but are actually worshiping the destroyer, the entity that represents him, ---- the sun. They’ve rejected new light: “But while the light has continued to increase, the church has not advanced proportionately. The fine gold has gradually become dim, and deadness and formality have come in to cripple the energies of the church. Their abundant privileges and opportunities have not led God's people onward and upward to purity and holiness. A faithful improvement of the talents God has entrusted to them would greatly increase those talents. Where much is given, much will be required. Those only who faithfully accept and appreciate the light God has given us, and who take a high, noble stand in self-denial and self-sacrifice, will be channels of light to the world. Those who do not advance will retrograde, even on the very borders of the heavenly Canaan. It has been revealed to me that our faith and our works in no way correspond to the light of truth bestowed.” 5T 534

Here is another example of God’s wrath: “He who presides over His church and the destinies of nations is carrying forward the last work to be accomplished for this world. To His angels He gives the commission to execute His judgments (don’t stop here). Let the ministers awake, let them take in the situation. The work of judgment begins at the sanctuary (our church). ‘And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar.’ Read Ezekiel 9:2-7. The command is, ‘Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary (the last church in the prophetic time of the 7 churches). Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.’ Saith God, ‘I will recompense their way upon their head (“God gave them up”).’” TM 431, 2

Let’s prepare to meet our Lord!

They are stuck and are not advancing. There is a reason God spits Laodicea out of His mouth.

[Robert]

It's like how many times do I have to repeat myself that when God retreats its not always Satan who comes in and does the damage, but those who oppose us keep ignoring this....

[Guest WilloMar]

Robert, Lutz13, it is my opinion that those who are so adamant in their belief that God is a destroyer will not repent, because they’re comfortable with their faith. It seems that no matter how much proof that is presented, they will not budge. But, let me try one more time with a question: Who were more comprehending, God’s loyal angels and holy beings on other worlds, or Moses, Abraham, Joshua and all of the other authors that people depend on to prove God is a destroyer.

“But the plan of redemption had a yet broader and deeper purpose than the salvation of man. It was not for this alone that Christ came to the earth; it was not merely that the inhabitants of this little world might regard the law of God as it should be regarded; but it was to vindicate the character of God before the universe.... It would establish the perpetuity of the law of God, and would reveal the nature and the results of sin.” (PP 68, 9)

Is it possible that we have been deceived? I mean, isn’t that what the deceiver and liar does?

“Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The arch-apostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion.

“...Lucifer had been the covering cherub. He had stood in the light of God’s presence. He had been the highest of all created beings, and had been foremost in revealing God’s purposes to the universe. After he had sinned, his power to deceive was the most deceptive, and the unveiling of his character was the more difficult, because of the exalted position he had held with the Father.

“God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan’s government. The Lord’s principles are not of this order...” DA 758, 9

Yes, this message is growing into the Loud Cry!

“The message will be carried not so much by argument as by the deep conviction of the Spirit of God.” GC 612

When I first heard it... some... years ago... I was overjoyed! It was like a great burden was lifted and I could at last see God’s Glorious Character!

Let’s prepare to welcome Jesus!

[Gerr]

It's like how many times do I have to repeat myself that when God retreats its not always Satan who comes in and does the damage, but those who oppose us keep ignoring this....

Repeating a falsehood a trillion x won't make it true.

[Woody]

It's like how many times do I have to repeat myself that when God retreats its not always Satan who comes in and does the damage, but those who oppose us keep ignoring this....

Good thought Robert. We do need to pay more attention. You are right on.

[Twilight]

Robert, Lutz13, it is my opinion that those who are so adamant in their belief that God is a destroyer will not repent, because they’re comfortable with their faith. It seems that no matter how much proof that is presented, they will not budge. But, let me try one more time with a question: Who were more comprehending, God’s loyal angels and holy beings on other worlds, or Moses, Abraham, Joshua and all of the other authors that people depend on to prove God is a destroyer.

“But the plan of redemption had a yet broader and deeper purpose than the salvation of man. It was not for this alone that Christ came to the earth; it was not merely that the inhabitants of this little world might regard the law of God as it should be regarded; but it was to vindicate the character of God before the universe.... It would establish the perpetuity of the law of God, and would reveal the nature and the results of sin.” (PP 68, 9)

Is it possible that we have been deceived? I mean, isn’t that what the deceiver and liar does?

“Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The arch-apostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion.

“...Lucifer had been the covering cherub. He had stood in the light of God’s presence. He had been the highest of all created beings, and had been foremost in revealing God’s purposes to the universe. After he had sinned, his power to deceive was the most deceptive, and the unveiling of his character was the more difficult, because of the exalted position he had held with the Father.

“God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan’s government. The Lord’s principles are not of this order...” DA 758, 9

Yes, this message is growing into the Loud Cry!

“The message will be carried not so much by argument as by the deep conviction of the Spirit of God.” GC 612

When I first heard it... some... years ago... I was overjoyed! It was like a great burden was lifted and I could at last see God’s Glorious Character!

Let’s prepare to welcome Jesus!

This is not the Loud Cry my friend, not in my understanding.

Mark

[Guest WilloMar]

What is the Loud Cry, then?

Let's be prepared for Jesus!

[Gerr]

Robert, Lutz13, it is my opinion that those who are so adamant in their belief that God is a destroyer will not repent,

Repent? Is it a sin to believe God destroys evil? When it comes to truth, I keep an open mind. All I and others need is a clear "Thus says the Lord." What I have seen are some fanciful interpretations of Scripture. Since you quote from SOP, let me tell you some of her counsels that I follow:

1. "Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should dlemand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support." GC 595

2. "The Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms." Ibid.

3. "The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed. Christ has given us the promise: 'If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine.'" Jn 17:17. If men would but, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands upon thousands who are now wandering in error." GC 599.

Quote:

because they’re comfortable with their faith.

Nothing to do with comfort. It has to be the truth.

Quote:

It seems that no matter how much proof that is presented, they will not budge.

As I said, the proof presented is nothing more than fanciful hermeneutics. When war was fought in heaven, did Michael and His angels use force to kick the dragon and his angels out of heaven?

Quote:

But, let me try one more time with a question: Who were more comprehending, God’s loyal angels and holy beings on other worlds, or Moses, Abraham, Joshua and all of the other authors that people depend on to prove God is a destroyer.

Speculation. See counsel #1 & 2 above.

Quote:

“But the plan of redemption had a yet broader and deeper purpose than the salvation of man. It was not for this alone that Christ came to the earth; it was not merely that the inhabitants of this little world might regard the law of God as it should be regarded; but it was to vindicate the character of God before the universe.... It would establish the perpetuity of the law of God, and would reveal the nature and the results of sin.” (PP 68, 9)

Is it possible that we have been deceived? I mean, isn’t that what the deceiver and liar does?

“Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The arch-apostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion.

“...Lucifer had been the covering cherub. He had stood in the light of God’s presence. He had been the highest of all created beings, and had been foremost in revealing God’s purposes to the universe. After he had sinned, his power to deceive was the most deceptive, and the unveiling of his character was the more difficult, because of the exalted position he had held with the Father.

“God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan’s government. The Lord’s principles are not of this order...” DA 758, 9

Yes, this message is growing into the Loud Cry!

“The message will be carried not so much by argument as by the deep conviction of the Spirit of God.” GC 612

When I first heard it... some... years ago... I was overjoyed! It was like a great burden was lifted and I could at last see God’s Glorious Character!

Let’s prepare to welcome Jesus!

The same author you quote has this also to say:

"Those who endeavor to obey all the commandments of God will be opposed and derided. They can stand only in God. In order to endure the trial before, they must understand the will of God as revealed inn His Word; THEY CAN HONOR HIM ONLY AS THEY HAVE A RIGHT CONCEPTION OF HIS CHARACTER, GOVERNMENT, AND PURPOSES, AND ACT IN ACCORDANCE WITH THEM." GC 593.

Take away justice from God's government and you have anarchy. Take away love & mercy from His government and you have tyranny. That God is not only love but also just are themes that run from Gen to Rev. That God is also just is much too obvious and clear for me to overlook.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

"And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah" Genesis 13:10 KJV

Where do we find in the Word that the Lord stepped back to allow the devil to do the destruction?

Okay...that does it! I'm dealing with spiritually ignorant folks! You guys repeating the same lame thoughts gets old.

Your assumption of spiritual superiority and condescending attitude reminds me of someone.

Quote:

Who told you Satan did it? Not me....The natural world is dangerous. Sin has affected our world. God is holding back the effects of sin....When He steps back things come apart just like the boy with his finger in the dike example I gave 2 billions times...

Sooooooo, what's the difference between God holding the forces of nature back and then take away His hand so that nature destroys the wicked, from God causing the forces of nature to do so? Splitting hairs!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gerr]

Probation has closed for the organizational Seventh-day Adventist Church. And, like Israel, we don’t realize it as members.

Have you received some kind of vision or message from above to make that kind of pronouncement?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

It's like how many times do I have to repeat myself that when God retreats its not always Satan who comes in and does the damage, but those who oppose us keep ignoring this....

Repeating a falsehood a trillion x won't make it true.

So stop already teehe

[Guest WilloMar]

It's in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy, but don't just take my word for it ---- STUDY IT OUT FOR YOURSELF! Ok, this is a clue, we are told that probation closes for the church BEFORE it closes for the world. Can't you see that that time is just before us?

Prepare to meet Jesus!

[Robert]

Take away justice from God's government and you have anarchy.

Justice was served at the cross. Jesus became sin, who as God, knew no sin. How did God visit justice upon sin in the flesh? He abandoned Christ's humanity, which is our humanity. Hence that is how God's justice works.

I'm sorry you don't have the capacity to understand such! It shows how much you are steeped in traditionalism! You have been bought and sold a bill of goods that has no value. Bluntantly speaking, you are assisting Lucifer in his attack on the character of God. That calls for repentance....

ROb

[John317]

Probation has closed for the organizational Seventh-day Adventist Church.

I agree that probation will close for Seventh-day Adventists before it closes for the rest of the world, and I also agree that time is short, and we need to do everything we can spiritually to be prepared. But I don't believe that probation has already closed for the church.

I know of some groups who teach this, though. Shepherds Rod and ALF are two examples of organizations who teach this.

What is your most convincing evidence that probation has closed for the organizational church? What is the clearest statement you know of either in the Bible or in the Spirit of Prophecy that supports your view?

[Robert]

Sooooooo, what's the difference between God holding the forces of nature back and then take away His hand so that nature destroys the wicked, from God causing the forces of nature to do so? Splitting hairs!!!!!!!!!!!

First I wouldn't call it the forces of nature. More like the effects of sin.

Again, God's wrath against sin is passive. Passive...not active...not causing....

[Robert]

What is your most convincing evidence that probation has closed for the organizational church?

Can you guys take this elsewhere? This one will get deep....

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Take away justice from God's government and you have anarchy.

Justice was served at the cross. Jesus became sin, who as God, knew no sin. How did God visit justice upon sin in the flesh? He abandoned Christ's humanity, which is our humanity. Hence that is how God's justice works.

I'm sorry you don't have the capacity to understand such! It shows how much you are steeped in traditionalism! You have been bought and sold a bill of goods that has no value. Bluntantly speaking, you are assisting Lucifer in his attack on the character of God. That calls for repentance....

Isn't it enough simply to present the truth as you believe it, and let people make up their own minds, without making it appear that people who don't see it your way are helping the Devil or don't have "the capacity to understand"?

The truth is that there is evidence on both sides of this question, and there are intelligent and highly spiritual people who believe either way.

It is true that the FAther abandoned the Son and allowed Him to be killed by men inspired by Satan and his demons; but that does not prove that this is how the wicked will be finally destroyed, simply by God's withdrawing his protection from them. Yes, God does finally withdraw His protection from them, but there is much Bible and SOP evidence that God takes an active role--and not merely a passive one-- in the destruction of the wicked at the end of time.

But let each man (or woman) be persuaded in his own mind.

[Robert]

Isn't it enough simply to present the truth as you believe it, and let people make up their own minds, without making it appear that people who don't see it your way are helping the Devil or don't have "the capacity to understand"?

Yes, but my nature prompted me to fight back against this same type mentality from the my opponents. Their natures are busy too....So I agree...let's all stop the accusations. I'm guilty....