Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Twilight]

Quote:

Just turn to 1 Cor 13 & Ex 20:1-18, if you think that what I described above is merely human love.

Gerry, what I have a hard time with is. This love you keep describing is saying God is going to raise up people who He has already burned, just to burn them up again. How is this even close to love?

Also, I don't see where it says love is going to destroy evil. You see, the way love destroys evil is. When you show compassion on your enemies, they have a change of heart. Yet, because love never uses means of force, it sometimes just has to walk away and let that evil self destruct. Which it will do. Look at the world today and you will see it. Look at the suicide rate in the world. Look at how many drunk drivers die due to their self indulgence of alcohol. Look at the death rate of smokers.(God took that evil and tossed it into the sea for me) Look at the cause of STDs out there. That is the result of sin.

Why does this world keep going? Technically it could have ended when Christ died on the cross. That is when Satans character was revealed to the unfallen worlds. He was judged at that point. Yet we still continue. Because God knows the day is coming when all will reject Him except for His saints. He guards them, and gives up the rest to their own destruction.(Romans 1:18-25)

Who by seeking can find out God?

When we start to label Gods Character with a human sentiment (like pacificism), then we are ourselve guilty of the crime of Judging God.

The whole point of God and His counsels, is that sometimes they do not make much sense to us.

There are some things He does, that we do not understand.

Hence the thousand years of judgement (millenium).

Let us not assume, because we cannot fit God into our minds, that we can judge Him, or attribute characteristics to Him that we want Him to have...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a direct source for how Satans destruction is accomplished.

Notice, who is where and who does what:

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

The only argument against this is to argue that Ezekiel was not inspired...

But then that places us as infidels, not allowing the bible to interpret itself, but applying our own reasoning to it.

Mark

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

I was always taught that this was Satan's deception.

If we could keep His commandments on our own we wouldn't need a Savior.

i think if humans had used the power available from God to help us obey His law then we would not have needed a savior.

i thought 2/3 of the heavenly host have always kept Gods laws. and I thought somebody also said that all the populations of all other inhabited planets have always kept God's laws. and i always thought that if one can do it, so can another. i think there is a difference between what we can do and what we do, and it is because of what we did that we need a savior. it is true that if there was no sin then we wouldn't need to be saved, but i thought Jesus proved by His life as human that humans could live without sinning. I think just because we do sin doesn't mean we have to sin. and i think needing the Holy Spirit to help keep us from sinning is not the same as needing a savior.

[Robert]

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

The only argument against this is to argue that Ezekiel was not inspired...

Mark

Nope, that's not the ONLY argument. Where have you been the last week, sleeping?

Who sends a lying spirit?

One Perspective

The Lord said, “Who will persuade Ahab to go up that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?” . . .A spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said . . . “I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all the prophets” (1 Kings 22:20, 22).

Another Perspective

It is impossible for God to lie . . . God . . . cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18; Titus 1:2).

Who led David to number Israel?

One Perspective

The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and He moved David . . . to . . . number Israel and Judah (2 Sam. 24:2).

Another Perspective

Now Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel (1 Chron. 21:1)

Who killed Saul?

One Perspective

So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance, but he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore, He [God] killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David, the son of Jesse (1 Chron. 10:13, 14).

Another Perspective

Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it” . . . But his armorbearer would not. . . . Therefore, Saul took a sword and fell on it. . . . So Saul . . . died (1 Chron. 10:4, 6).

Who hardened Pharoah's heart?

One Perspective

And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharoah which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go” (Exodus 4:21).

Another Perspective

But when Pharoah saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said . . . But Pharoah hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go (Exodus 8:14,32)

Is God furious?

One Perspective

I am full of the fury of the Lord (Jeremiah 6:11).

Another Perspective

Fury is not in Me [says the Lord] (Isaiah 27:4).

Who killed the firstborn of Egypt?

One Perspective

God speaking: “For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord” (Exodus 12:12).

Another Perspective

For the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians: and when He sees the blood on the doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you (Exodus 12:23; emphasis supplied).

What was the Father's role in the death of Jesus?

One Perspective

I [God] will strike the Shepherd. . . . We esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God (Mark 114:27; Isaiah 53:4).

Another Perspective

My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? (Mark 15:34).

[MM Campbell]

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Who told you I reject her? She's not infallible, and according to her own writings, she had limited light. So in with the good, out with the bad (as Redwood states)....

Inspiration by pick and mix?

Is there not a danger of picking and choosing those things that appeal to our carnality and rejecting those that do not?

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

If we could keep His commandments on our own we wouldn't need a Savior.

i think if humans had used the power available from God to help us obey His law then we would not have needed a savior.

i thought 2/3 of the heavenly host have always kept Gods laws. and I thought somebody also said that all the populations of all other inhabited planets have always kept God's laws. and i always thought that if one can do it' date=' so can another. i think there is a difference between what we can do and what we do, and it is because of what we did that we need a savior. it is true that if there was no sin then we wouldn't need to be saved, but i thought Jesus proved by His life as human that humans could live without sinning. I think just because we do sin doesn't mean we have to sin. and i think needing the Holy Spirit to help keep us from sinning is not the same as needing a savior. [/quote']

Try this:

God sent His Son.

His Son sent the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit brings Gods Love into our hearts.

The first Justifies us.

The second and third Sanctifies us.

Mark :-)

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Who by seeking can find out God?

When we start to label Gods Character with a human sentiment (like pacificism), then we are ourselve guilty of the crime of Judging God.

The whole point of God and His counsels, is that sometimes they do not make much sense to us.

There are some things He does, that we do not understand.

Hence the thousand years of judgement (millenium).

Let us not assume, because we cannot fit God into our minds, that we can judge Him, or attribute characteristics to Him that we want Him to have...

Hey Twilight,

The things is, God wants us to seek Him out and to learn of Him. "Let us know, let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord. His going forth is established as the morning; He will come to us like the rain, like the latter and former rain to the earth"(Hosea 6:3)He wants us to know Him. He doesn't expect us to worship Him blindly and not knowing who He is. Jesus came to represent who God truly is.

Quote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a direct source for how Satans destruction is accomplished.

Notice, who is where and who does what:

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

The only argument against this is to argue that Ezekiel was not inspired...

But then that places us as infidels, not allowing the bible to interpret itself, but applying our own reasoning to it.

How do you know that is to be taken literal? "Because you speak this word, behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them"(Jeremiah 5:14) Did God turn people into wood? Did Jeremiah breath fire out of his mouth and devour them? Not in a literal sense.

"They shall throw you down into the Pit, and you shall die the death of the slain in the midst of the seas. Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am a god'? but you shall be a man and not a god, in the hand of him who slays you."(Ezekiel 28:8-9)

Here God says Satan is pulled down to the pit, and tries to claim he is a god to these people. But these people see him differently now. Notice He says "will you still say" Satan claims to be a god here on earth.

So which is it?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

The only argument against this is to argue that Ezekiel was not inspired...

Mark

Nope, that's not the ONLY argument. Where have you been the last week, sleeping?

Who sends a lying spirit?

One Perspective

The Lord said, “Who will persuade Ahab to go up that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?” . . .A spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said . . . “I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all the prophets” (1 Kings 22:20, 22).

Another Perspective

It is impossible for God to lie . . . God . . . cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18; Titus 1:2).

Who led David to number Israel?

One Perspective

The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and He moved David . . . to . . . number Israel and Judah (2 Sam. 24:2).

Another Perspective

Now Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel (1 Chron. 21:1)

Who killed Saul?

One Perspective

So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance, but he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore, He [God] killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David, the son of Jesse (1 Chron. 10:13, 14).

Another Perspective

Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it” . . . But his armorbearer would not. . . . Therefore, Saul took a sword and fell on it. . . . So Saul . . . died (1 Chron. 10:4, 6).

Who hardened Pharoah's heart?

One Perspective

And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharoah which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go” (Exodus 4:21).

Another Perspective

But when Pharoah saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said . . . But Pharoah hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go (Exodus 8:14,32)

Is God furious?

One Perspective

I am full of the fury of the Lord (Jeremiah 6:11).

Another Perspective

Fury is not in Me [says the Lord] (Isaiah 27:4).

Who killed the firstborn of Egypt?

One Perspective

God speaking: “For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord” (Exodus 12:12).

Another Perspective

For the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians: and when He sees the blood on the doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you (Exodus 12:23; emphasis supplied).

What was the Father's role in the death of Jesus?

One Perspective

I [God] will strike the Shepherd. . . . We esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God (Mark 114:27; Isaiah 53:4).

Another Perspective

My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? (Mark 15:34).

[MM Campbell]

Robert, the whole basis of your argument is that Satan does what is attributed to God.

That is true in many cases, because God permits Satan to do it.

But here, the roles are clearly set out.

Unless you are saying that Ezekiel is saying that Satan is talking here, but thinks it is the LORD?

God destroys satan here, the text is plain.

Mark

[Lutz13]

"'Is not My word like a fire?' says the Lord, 'and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces'?"(Jeremiah 23:29) What is Gods word? Well it can't be a lie so it must be truth. Just like the truth that came out of Jeremiahs mouth which devoured[not literally] those people. The same thing happens here with Satan.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Who by seeking can find out God?

When we start to label Gods Character with a human sentiment (like pacificism), then we are ourselve guilty of the crime of Judging God.

The whole point of God and His counsels, is that sometimes they do not make much sense to us.

There are some things He does, that we do not understand.

Hence the thousand years of judgement (millenium).

Let us not assume, because we cannot fit God into our minds, that we can judge Him, or attribute characteristics to Him that we want Him to have...

Hey Twilight,

The things is, God wants us to seek Him out and to learn of Him. "Let us know, let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord. His going forth is established as the morning; He will come to us like the rain, like the latter and former rain to the earth"(Hosea 6:3)He wants us to know Him. He doesn't expect us to worship Him blindly and not knowing who He is. Jesus came to represent who God truly is.

Quote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a direct source for how Satans destruction is accomplished.

Notice, who is where and who does what:

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

The only argument against this is to argue that Ezekiel was not inspired...

But then that places us as infidels, not allowing the bible to interpret itself, but applying our own reasoning to it.

How do you know that is to be taken literal? "Because you speak this word, behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them"(Jeremiah 5:14) Did God turn people into wood? Did Jeremiah breath fire out of his mouth and devour them? Not in a literal sense.

"They shall throw you down into the Pit, and you shall die the death of the slain in the midst of the seas. Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am a god'? but you shall be a man and not a god, in the hand of him who slays you."(Ezekiel 28:8-9)

Here God says Satan is pulled down to the pit, and tries to claim he is a god to these people. But these people see him differently now. Notice He says "will you still say" Satan claims to be a god here on earth.

So which is it?

The issue is not that we should seek God out.

The issue is when we start claiming we have "sought" God and that our view of His nature is the only possible correct one and we fully understand Him.

What you and Robert have done here is stated that unless God fits your view of His character, God is a sinner.

That is a very strong position to take.

Because if you are wrong, you are in danger of being lost by claiming such a thing.

-----------------------------------------

As to the Ezekiel text, you have to get rid of the plain meaning to make it fit your viewpoint, does that not set any alarm bells ringing at all?

That every text that goes against your view becomes a parable or "symbolic"?

That is not the way Adventists study the bible, Catholics yes, Adventists no...

We do not attempt to make the scripture fit our views, no matter how troubling the scripture might be because of our inability to understand everything that God does...

God bless my friend.

Mark

[Lutz13]

Fair enough. So I guess God turned people into wood...And Jeremiah burned them up with his mouth...

Quote:

because if you are wrong, you are in danger of being lost by claiming such a thing.

Interesting. So when I say God doesn't kill, I am going to be lost because of it? For trying to prove Him innocent, I am going to be lost?

Yes, it is a strong position to take. God sees my heart and my intentions. To say I am in danger of being lost because of this, is telling me to be afraid of God. Sorry I will not do this. He doesn't want me to be afraid of Him.

Quote:

As to the Ezekiel text, you have to get rid of the plain meaning to make it fit your viewpoint, does that not set any alarm bells ringing at all?

No it doesn't. Not at all. Do you know why? Because the bible is full of metaphors, and not everything is to be taken literal. Jesus spoke of this. Also, you are ignoring Ezekiel 28:8-9. It is plain text.

Quote:

That is not the way Adventists study the bible, Catholics yes, Adventists no...

We do not attempt to make the scripture fit our views, no matter how troubling the scripture might be because of our inability to understand everything that God does...

Interesting. Most people twist scripture to justify their actions. I am not doing that. I am learning that God doesn't kill anyone that everyone will have killed themselves. This message actually glorifies God, instead of bringing Him down to our level. Which you do when you say Gods love is like your love and that He would do what you would do.

[Twilight]

Fair enough. So I guess God turned people into wood...And Jeremiah burned them up with his mouth...

Quote:

because if you are wrong, you are in danger of being lost by claiming such a thing.

Interesting. So when I say God doesn't kill, I am going to be lost because of it? For trying to prove Him innocent, I am going to be lost?

Yes, it is a strong position to take. God sees my heart and my intentions. To say I am in danger of being lost because of this, is telling me to be afraid of God. Sorry I will not do this. He doesn't want me to be afraid of Him.

Quote:

As to the Ezekiel text, you have to get rid of the plain meaning to make it fit your viewpoint, does that not set any alarm bells ringing at all?

No it doesn't. Not at all. Do you know why? Because the bible is full of metaphors, and not everything is to be taken literal. Jesus spoke of this. Also, you are ignoring Ezekiel 28:8-9. It is plain text.

Quote:

That is not the way Adventists study the bible, Catholics yes, Adventists no...

We do not attempt to make the scripture fit our views, no matter how troubling the scripture might be because of our inability to understand everything that God does...

Interesting. Most people twist scripture to justify their actions. I am not doing that. I am learning that God doesn't kill anyone that everyone will have killed themselves. This message actually glorifies God, instead of bringing Him down to our level. Which you do when you say Gods love is like your love and that He would do what you would do.

Remember my friend, it is your view that requires us to completely re-interpret the bible and throw some sections out as "un-inspired".

Your view of God, calls Him evil and a sinner if it is incorrect.

I would urge you my friend to consider that.

Remember that no one is disagreeing with many things you say, but when it is taken too far and preached as the "only truth" or "acceptable viewpoint", you are claiming infallibility for your view and understanding.

I will not go further than scripture permits, as much as I may desire to.

Do you think God is going to condemn me for staying within the constraints of scripture, trusting that I do not understand everything about His character, but at the same time not expecting to?

When you make such bold claims about God being this way that you present or that He is evil, you have set the judgement on His character.

You are saying that God goes this far and no more.

That this is the definition of "love" and if God goes beyond that He is a sinner.

THAT is using human understanding to measure God.

When I come to the scripture, I have to leave my opinions and ideas behind and allow God to speak to me.

I love my God, but that does not give me the right to define Him in some totalitarian manner that you and Robert have assumed the right to do here.

God bless,

Mark

[aldona]

Quote:

Inspiration by pick and mix?

Is there not a danger of picking and choosing those things that appeal to our carnality and rejecting those that do not?

Ever heard of "Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good"? (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Is that "inspiration by pick and mix"?

E.G. White is not the Bible. She was a human being. She is not exempt from this instruction.

aldona

[Robert]

Inspiration by pick and mix?

Is there not a danger of picking and choosing those things that appeal to our carnality and rejecting those that do not?

Mark

Look, do you want the quotes again? Your argument is with her.

Secondly, the greatest danger within Adventism is making EGW the measuring stick of truth.....

Rob

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Remember my friend, it is your view that requires us to completely re-interpret the bible and throw some sections out as "un-inspired".

Re-interpret the bible? Do you mean to give up traditional thought when a new truth comes? I'm not throwing out anything. I'm trying figure out who my God really is.(That is how relationships are formed if you are wondering) When I see things like... Saul fell on a sword...Then later seeing "God killed Saul" "In My wrath I killed Saul" I tend to wonder what is going on. So I take a closer look at Gods wrath and I see what He really did.

God never changes, and I believe it when He says that. Which means, God doesn't need to change to snuff out a sin problem. Just because you a finite being thinks that God must destroy. Our God who knows all can pull it off without killing anyone. Because He is just that amazing.

Quote:

Your view of God, calls Him evil and a sinner if it is incorrect.

God wants us to be like Him. Which is why He wants us to study Him and find out what He is like. His Character is revealed in His law. His Character was revealed at the cross. Jesus said if He was from this world, His servants would fight. But because He doesn't come from a world of destruction, He doesn't use the same means as this world does. He can conquer sin another way, and to say He can't is to limit our amazing God.

Quote:

Remember that no one is disagreeing with many things you say, but when it is taken too far and preached as the "only truth" or "acceptable viewpoint", you are claiming infallibility for your view and understanding.

I still question a lot as I go. I ask God what this means, or why that happened. I am always led to more evidence, or as I am reading it just jumps out at me and I am led to write it down.

Quote:

When you make such bold claims about God being this way that you present or that He is evil, you have set the judgement on His character.

Breaking the law is considered evil. When I see God breaking His own law, alarm bells go off, and God does want me to question it and study who He really is. Jesus said "learn of Me" Many times throughout the bible we are called to seek out the knowledge of God. Jesus made it clear who was doing all the killing. "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." I was not willing to accept that Jesus was being a hypocrite. So I was led to dig deep, and find out what happened. Before the cross, even unfallen beings questioned God, and they saw the truth when Christ said "it is finished"

Quote:

When I come to the scripture, I have to leave my opinions and ideas behind and allow God to speak to me.

I would hope so. Interestingly enough, I do the same.

Quote:

I love my God, but that does not give me the right to define Him in some totalitarian manner that you and Robert have assumed the right to do here.

I have a strong desire to love Him too. Since He was willing to lose everything to give us all a chance at life. It showed what true love is. God loves us more than Himself. He deserves to be bowed down to because of that. The God that I know and understand now, would have me be passive all the time and to never ever think any violence upon someone, because He never would.

[Robert]

Robert, the whole basis of your argument is that Satan does what is attributed to God.

[Robert]

What you and Robert have done here is stated that unless God fits your view of His character, God is a sinner.

That is a very strong position to take.

Because if you are wrong, you are in danger of being lost by claiming such a thing.

And if we are right then you are driving unbelievers from God. You also are placing on Him sinful attributes and thereby are in danger of being lost by claiming such at thing.

Two can play that game,

Rob

[Robert]

That every text that goes against your view becomes a parable or "symbolic"?

Tell you what, Mark....You are like the atheist who wants me to prove God. I can give evidence, but absolute proof of God? No!

The same with this issue. If I'm in error it's because I would rather side with God's love then His so called wrath. The latter doesn't fit the God I know. Hence,

1 Cor 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully....

If you look at the context and subject of the above chapter it is "agape". Why do we "see but a poor reflection as in a mirror" when it comes to His agape love? It's because we have those statements, especially in the OT, that make God look like anything but loving His enemies.

Rob

[Robert]

God sees my heart and my intentions.

I've got bad news for most Adventist concerning the judgment. In the IJ God's doesn't look at your acts, He looks at your motives.

Let me explain: To prove one's faith Jesus will use the believer's works, not to prove one's righteousness (because there is none righteous), but to prove one's faith. So it's not the quantity of good works that God investigates, but rather the quality. Again, what do I mean?

Simply this: We are told that "love is the fulfillment of the law." That word for love is "agape". In other words the key ingredient for genuine good works is "agape".

Hence, if God is doing something through you,

1] You probably will not even be aware of the deed

and

2] the deed will be free of any self-interests or payback.

For example,

Let’s say we have two different believers in the judgment. Both do the same deed. Both help a little old lady across the street. Outwardly they are following the golden rule.

So outwardly both look like their faith is genuine, but God doesn’t judge the act, He judges the motive. He judges the secrets of man’s hearts.

The first believer does it because he has the assurance of salvation. He has nothing to prove....He has heaven in Jesus Christ and therefore his motive is clean of self-concerns. He is free to allow God to work in him!

The second believer doesn’t have the assurance of salvation, so automatically he feels like he must do something to prove his faith. It’s what Paul calls “a fare show of the flesh”. His motive isn't controlled by agape and therefore he is doing it either for a reward or out of fear of punishment. The reward might also included the little old lady remembering him in her will! Notice that this is self-love, not agape. That’s because agape is free of self-interests.

So, if you are keeping the law outwardly to get to heaven, then in reality you are keeping sin! How so? The key ingredient, agape, is missing and therefore it’s your nature trying to act all holy. This is called self-righteousness or filthy rags. Such a believer will be condemned in the judgment because his faith is in reality a sham.

[Robert]

Quote:

Inspiration by pick and mix?

Is there not a danger of picking and choosing those things that appeal to our carnality and rejecting those that do not?

Ever heard of "Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good"? (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Is that "inspiration by pick and mix"?

E.G. White is not the Bible. She was a human being. She is not exempt from this instruction.

aldona

Oh....I'm in love teehe ....Someone that thinks like me....

You hit the nail smack dab on the head! TU

[Robert]

God's doesn't look at your acts, He looks at your motives.

Want to begin having the right motives? Have the assurance of salvation! It is a law of human nature that insecurity destroys assurance. If you're insecure about your salvation "in Christ" then,

1] Your faith is weakening

and

2] Your works are filthy rags.

And another thing....

You can keep the wrong day as your rest day, but be doing it for the right motive. Also, you can be keeping the correct day, but be doing it to be saved. The latter is either for a reward (due to insecurity) or fear of God (which is really what the topic should be here)

Since God looks at the motive the Sunday keeper, in this example, goes to heaven. Not because of his works, but because his work is free of self-concerns and is hence motivated by agape.

This ought to get some folks all worked up!

Rob

[LifeHiscost]

One Perspective

Another Perspective

Another Perspective

There are many perspectives about God, among believer and non-believer. The best perspective I can think of is "God is Love".

Being fashioned in the likeness of a sinful father(Adam), I depend highly on the grace and love of Jesus, as well as the Father, for giving me any hope at all for the future(or the present). Praise God I don't have to depend on my perfect understanding of Them to find full assurance of the fulfillment of all His promises, if not here and now, then certainly in the future where no one will desire to question His authority or love.

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope."Jeremiah 29:11 NKJV

"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you."John 14:2 NASB

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

God sent His Son.

His Son sent the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit brings Gods Love into our hearts.

The first Justifies us.

The second and third Sanctifies us.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

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Remember my friend, it is your view that requires us to completely re-interpret the bible and throw some sections out as "un-inspired".

Re-interpret the bible? Do you mean to give up traditional thought when a new truth comes? I'm not throwing out anything. I'm trying figure out who my God really is.(That is how relationships are formed if you are wondering) When I see things like... Saul fell on a sword...Then later seeing "God killed Saul" "In My wrath I killed Saul" I tend to wonder what is going on. So I take a closer look at Gods wrath and I see what He really did.

God never changes, and I believe it when He says that. Which means, God doesn't need to change to snuff out a sin problem. Just because you a finite being thinks that God must destroy. Our God who knows all can pull it off without killing anyone. Because He is just that amazing.

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Your view of God, calls Him evil and a sinner if it is incorrect.

God wants us to be like Him. Which is why He wants us to study Him and find out what He is like. His Character is revealed in His law. His Character was revealed at the cross. Jesus said if He was from this world, His servants would fight. But because He doesn't come from a world of destruction, He doesn't use the same means as this world does. He can conquer sin another way, and to say He can't is to limit our amazing God.

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Remember that no one is disagreeing with many things you say, but when it is taken too far and preached as the "only truth" or "acceptable viewpoint", you are claiming infallibility for your view and understanding.

I still question a lot as I go. I ask God what this means, or why that happened. I am always led to more evidence, or as I am reading it just jumps out at me and I am led to write it down.

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When you make such bold claims about God being this way that you present or that He is evil, you have set the judgement on His character.

Breaking the law is considered evil. When I see God breaking His own law, alarm bells go off, and God does want me to question it and study who He really is. Jesus said "learn of Me" Many times throughout the bible we are called to seek out the knowledge of God. Jesus made it clear who was doing all the killing. "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." I was not willing to accept that Jesus was being a hypocrite. So I was led to dig deep, and find out what happened. Before the cross, even unfallen beings questioned God, and they saw the truth when Christ said "it is finished"

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When I come to the scripture, I have to leave my opinions and ideas behind and allow God to speak to me.

I would hope so. Interestingly enough, I do the same.

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I love my God, but that does not give me the right to define Him in some totalitarian manner that you and Robert have assumed the right to do here.

I have a strong desire to love Him too. Since He was willing to lose everything to give us all a chance at life. It showed what true love is. God loves us more than Himself. He deserves to be bowed down to because of that. The God that I know and understand now, would have me be passive all the time and to never ever think any violence upon someone, because He never would.

I am just urging caution my friend.

Do not be so dogmatic in your views would be my counsel.

Allow that you can be led wrongly, but listen to the objections people make to your arguments. Do not assume because they do not agree, that they are all axe wielding maniacs that want to chop everybodies head off.

My point is this, we cannot fully understand God's Character as finite beings, but He has revealed enough that we can trust Him.

If something is difficult to understand, we do not throw God out, but we allow for ourselves to have fallible minds.

I asked you this before, forgive me if I did not see your reply.

But you point to the Leading of the Holy Spirit as your "safety net", but you have a problem here.

If Moses could not discern the leading of the Holy Spirit (because he did not know who he was talking to as you claim), then how can you be sure that you are lead by the Holy Spirit and not the enemy?

The same goes when Paul says that "God is a consuming fire". When you say He is not, are you not claiming inspiration above Paul?

In love,

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

What you and Robert have done here is stated that unless God fits your view of His character, God is a sinner.

That is a very strong position to take.

Because if you are wrong, you are in danger of being lost by claiming such a thing.

And if we are right then you are driving unbelievers from God. You also are placing on Him sinful attributes and thereby are in danger of being lost by claiming such at thing.

Two can play that game,

Rob

I will go no further than the whole of Scripture Robert.

You have gone further than that.

God will not condemn me for caution that rests on the principle of Sola Scriptura.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

God sees my heart and my intentions.

I've got bad news for most Adventist concerning the judgment. In the IJ God's doesn't look at your acts, He looks at your motives.

Let me explain: To prove one's faith Jesus will use the believer's works, not to prove one's righteousness (because there is none righteous), but to prove one's faith. So it's not the quantity of good works that God investigates, but rather the quality. Again, what do I mean?

Simply this: We are told that "love is the fulfillment of the law." That word for love is "agape". In other words the key ingredient for genuine good works is "agape".

Hence, if God is doing something through you,

1] You probably will not even be aware of the deed

and

2] the deed will be free of any self-interests or payback.

For example,

Let’s say we have two different believers in the judgment. Both do the same deed. Both help a little old lady across the street. Outwardly they are following the golden rule.

So outwardly both look like their faith is genuine, but God doesn’t judge the act, He judges the motive. He judges the secrets of man’s hearts.

The first believer does it because he has the assurance of salvation. He has nothing to prove....He has heaven in Jesus Christ and therefore his motive is clean of self-concerns. He is free to allow God to work in him!

The second believer doesn’t have the assurance of salvation, so automatically he feels like he must do something to prove his faith. It’s what Paul calls “a fare show of the flesh”. His motive isn't controlled by agape and therefore he is doing it either for a reward or out of fear of punishment. The reward might also included the little old lady remembering him in her will! Notice that this is self-love, not agape. That’s because agape is free of self-interests.

So, if you are keeping the law outwardly to get to heaven, then in reality you are keeping sin! How so? The key ingredient, agape, is missing and therefore it’s your nature trying to act all holy. This is called self-righteousness or filthy rags. Such a believer will be condemned in the judgment because his faith is in reality a sham.

You keep drawing on arguments that nobody is disagreeing with you.

The point is Robert, the bible states that God destroys sin ultimately, how He does that seems to be the issue here.

All these other points do not back up your view...

Mark :-)