Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Robert]

It is true that the FAther abandoned the Son and allowed Him to be killed by men inspired by Satan and his demons; but that does not prove that this is how the wicked will be finally destroyed, simply by God's withdrawing his protection from them.

"Allowed"? Remember Jesus became what He was not as God, sin. The humanity that Jesus assumed was our humanity under the curse [see Gal 4:4]. This wasn't a make believe humanity, it was our life indwelt with "sin in the flesh."

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do..., God did [how?] by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He [God] condemned sin [where?] in the flesh....

That word "likeness" means that Jesus as God was sinless, but as one of us he stood under the curse of the law because of "indwelling sin" - the root of all our sinning.

How did God "condemn sin in the flesh"? Well, whose flesh was it? Please don't tell me it was Christ's because that's blasphemy. He assumed us in order to redeem us from the curse. Again, see Gal 4:4.

Christ, by becoming sin, took the curse of the law upon himself. Remember the curse of the law is the 2nd death. How did God visit justice upon "sin in the flesh"? Was it passive or active? Answer: Passive. God abandoned Christ who became the sum total of all sin including unbelief.

Why would God differ towards the lost sinner? Why would God be passive towards Christ's assumed humanity, but become active towards the sinner? That doesn't make sense. Hence God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He is God, He changes not.

[Robert]

but there is much Bible and SOP evidence that God takes an active role--and not merely a passive one-- in the destruction of the wicked at the end of time.

I totally disagree. You don't understand the issue (I'm not calling you stupid here) with the two goats on the day of atonement. If you did you too would take the passive position.

The problem is we tend to pattern God after ourselves (see Psalm 50:21). "We have assumed He destroyed as we would destroy. But might not our God, knowing He has the power to prevent a disaster, feel the same burden of responsibility as if He had administered the blow Himself? In the language of Scripture He takes the blame, as He took the blame on Calvary so long ago. Satan is the accuser; God, by contrast, has always said, Let the blame fall on Me." [MM Campbell]

[Robert]

Why would God differ towards the lost sinner? Why would God be passive towards Christ's assumed humanity, but become active towards the sinner? That doesn't make sense.

The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb [Why? Because the hope of the resurrection, God, had abandoned Christ] . Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal [That's the 2nd death]. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. [DA 653]

[Guest WilloMar]

Dear John317, I’m not affiliated to any group. I’m a concerned 7th day Adventist. I’ve been a member of the church since the mid-1960. I remember very distinctly the study I had to go through for my baptism. The teacher, including myself at a later time, said that the reason the Protestants didn’t keep on advancing in the truth is because their leader, John Wesley and the others, died causing the advancement of their reformed churches to die, also. That’s been over 40 years ago. Now, what advancement has the SDA Church made in the last 40 years? Mrs. White said that truth is ever advancing, and if it’s not, it will be retrograding. Well, the church is not advancing; just listen to the sermons today, they’re all basically a hundred years old. I do think I know when probation closed for the church; it was a short time after I was baptized, when the church published her 28 beliefs for the Church. That was a creed, even though they say it wasn’t, it was, and Mrs. White warned the church not to create a creed. She said, The Bible, and the Bible only should be our Creed!

Let’s be able to welcome Jesus!

[Twilight]

What is the Loud Cry, then?

Let's be prepared for Jesus!

Righteousness by Faith in Christ's Merits alone.

Justification and Sanctification through Christ's Merits alone.

In other words, walking the walk and teaching others how to...

Mark

[Robert]

Justification and Sanctification through Christ's Merits alone.

-Several have written to me, inquiring if the message of justification by faith is the third angel's message, and I have answered, "It is the third angel's message in verity."-- Review and Herald, April 1, 1890.

JBF, not sanctification, as important as it is....

[Guest WilloMar]

Yes, Rightousness by Faith: Rev. 14:12: "Here is the patience/persistence of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD (here's the righteousness), and THE FAITH OF JESUS ( here's the faith)." The preposition, "OF" is very important because it indicates, derivation or origin, which, of course, comes directly from Jesus. Even our faith comes from Him. This all ties in with His character, which is what we must have to be one of the 144,000. And in order to receive His character, we must know what it is.

Jesus is coming soon!!!

[Lutz13]

Yes, Rightousness by Faith: Rev. 14:12: "Here is the patience/persistence of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD (here's the righteousness), and THE FAITH OF JESUS ( here's the faith)." The preposition, "OF" is very important because it indicates, derivation or origin, which, of course, comes directly from Jesus. Even our faith comes from Him. This all ties in with His character, which is what we must have to be one of the 144,000. And in order to receive His character, we must know what it is.

Jesus is coming soon!!!

Amen!

[Lutz13]

Nothing to do with comfort. It has to be the truth.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Take away justice from God's government and you have anarchy.

Justice was served at the cross. Jesus became sin, who as God, knew no sin. How did God visit justice upon sin in the flesh? He abandoned Christ's humanity, which is our humanity. Hence that is how God's justice works.

If justice was served at the Cross for everyone and that all debts were paid at that time for believers and the unrepentant alike, then no one should be lost. The Bible clearly teaches not all will be saved. And if not all are saved, then their debt was NOT paid, otherwise, there is double jeopardy.

Quote:

I'm sorry you don't have the capacity to understand such! It shows how much you are steeped in traditionalism!

Your hubris never stops to amaze me. It's a common debate trick, that when your position is weak, attack the other person, belittle them. So all that your personal attacks tell me is how tenuous your arguments are.

[Gerr]

Quote:

"and the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."(Jude 6)

God never uses force, those who claim He does need to take a closer look.

Never uses force? Did they leave heaven voluntarily? Shall I close my eyes and turn off my brain when I read passages of Scripture like these?

"No war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was THROWN down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world - he was THROWN DOWN to the earth, and his angels were THROWN DOWN with him." Rev 12:7-9 ESV.

Does that sound like a friendly dance?

Quote:

Take away justice from God's government and you have anarchy. Take away love & mercy from His government and you have tyranny. That God is not only love but also just are themes that run from Gen to Rev. That God is also just is much too obvious and clear for me to overlook.

Once again, you are confusing God with this world. Jesus said if He came from this world, He would fight like this world does. How is it that you miss that? "My kingdom is not of this world, if it were of this world my servants would fight"(John 18:36) The justice of this world is not the same as God justice. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways' Says the Lord."(Isaiah 55:8) You are thinking inside the box(this world). Our Creator is infinite, if there is such a God that can pull this off without killing anyone, He can. To say otherwise limits Him to our ways.

Those aren't my thoughts or my words, my friend, they are God's revealed thoughts and words.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Justice was served at the cross. Jesus became sin' date=' who as God, knew no sin. How did God visit justice upon sin in the flesh? He abandoned Christ's humanity, which is our humanity. Hence that is how God's justice works. [/quote']

If justice was served at the Cross for everyone and that all debts were paid at that time for believers and the unrepentant alike....

Gerry, as usual you are missing the point. Justice was served on the humanity of Christ, which is our humanity. How? God abandoned Christ....That's passive. If God's wrath was releasing Christ to the surrounding destruction, then why would He reverse this and act differently with the unbeliever?

[Robert]

my friend

And, John, this isn't my flesh: Gerry, you are an enemy of the gospel. I will continue to oppose your legalistic, hell & damnation views.

Rob

[Robert]

If justice was served at the Cross for everyone and that all debts were paid at that time for believers and the unrepentant alike, then no one should be lost.

Oh boy....This is pure nonsense. This is anti-gospel.

When did Christ pay the debts of the world?

Romans 5:8 ...God demonstrates his own love [agape] for us in this: While we were still sinners [his enemies], Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Did you get that? When we were sinners...when we were His enemies, God reconciled the human race unto Himself through Christ.

Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins [spiritually dead, not born again], 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.... But because of his great love [agape] for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus...

Romans 5:18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.

Just as all men stand condemned "in Adam", all men have been justified unto life "in Christ"....Christ has reversed the human race's condemnation through His act of righteousness.

However, not all men will accept His doing and dying, but that doesn't mean that Christ didn't accomplish what He set out to do. He has saved the whole world in Himself.

[Gerr]

Has it ever occurred to you that YOU are missing the point?

When the debt is paid, the debtor goes free!!! What is there about that principle that YOU don't understand?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

my friend

And, John, this isn't my flesh: Gerry, you are an enemy of the gospel. I will continue to oppose your legalistic, hell & damnation views.

Rob

"My friend" was not addressed to you. You made it clear some time back I'm no friend of yours!!! And you can be sure I will not be cozying up your so-called good news. I have no doubt where it was brewed from.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

If justice was served at the Cross for everyone and that all debts were paid at that time for believers and the unrepentant alike, then no one should be lost. The Bible clearly teaches not all will be saved. And if not all are saved, then their debt was NOT paid, otherwise, there is double jeopardy.

There is only grace in this life. Every sin ever committed by everyone who ever lived is forgiven in this life. The problem is, is that when we are raised up. We have the same character as when we died. If we have the character of this world, then we will sin again when there is no grace. That is why in this life, it is important to attain the character of Christ.

[Lutz13]

Never uses force? Did they leave heaven voluntarily? Shall I close my eyes and turn off my brain when I read passages of Scripture like these?

"No war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was THROWN down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world - he was THROWN DOWN to the earth, and his angels were THROWN DOWN with him." Rev 12:7-9 ESV.

Does that sound like a friendly dance?

[Gerr]

Quote:

If justice was served at the Cross for everyone and that all debts were paid at that time for believers and the unrepentant alike, then no one should be lost. The Bible clearly teaches not all will be saved. And if not all are saved, then their debt was NOT paid, otherwise, there is double jeopardy.

There is only grace in this life. Every sin ever committed by everyone who ever lived is forgiven in this life. The problem is, is that when we are raised up. We have the same character as when we died. If we have the character of this world, then we will sin again when there is no grace. That is why in this life, it is important to attain the character of Christ.

Do you mean that AFTER the Second Coming or the resurrection, God ceases to be love?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Never uses force? Did they leave heaven voluntarily? Shall I close my eyes and turn off my brain when I read passages of Scripture like these?

"No war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was THROWN down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world - he was THROWN DOWN to the earth, and his angels were THROWN DOWN with him." Rev 12:7-9 ESV.

Does that sound like a friendly dance?

You are still looking at this from earthly perception. Do they fight in heaven? Jesus says no. That is not how things are done there. So why is this any different? You must put everything together as a whole. If you take one verse, must like this one. Then compare it next to "My kingdom is not of this world, if My kingdom were of this world my servants would fight"(John 18:36)

When Jesus came to this earth, He did not come with a retinue of angels. So they could not fight for Him. You are asking me to shut me eyes and turn off my brain to follow a line of interpretation that does violence to Scripture. Sorry, I can't do that.

]

[Lutz13]

Do you mean that AFTER the Second Coming or the resurrection, God ceases to be love?

You misunderstand what I was saying. God never ceases to be love. "For I am the Lord, I change not;"(Malachi 3:6) "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever"(Hebrews 13:8) He won't force people into heaven. Man was deceived and fell. If there was never a promise of redemption they would have died there in the garden. Yet because God is love, He gave us another chance and defeated death for us. This would give us a chance to learn of Him and allow Him to restore us to His image. It bridged the gap between God and man. This is why we are still alive, this is why we do good things, because we hear His voice. If this wasn't done, we would be pure evil and would have /wrist or something.

What we do in this life, is entirely up to us. We can seek Him, or live for ourselves and die. Everyone gets raised up though because of what He did. God is still love because He doesn't force them to follow Him. "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient"(Romans 1:28) Since they used up their first life, there isn't another. There are no more continues, game over...They will remain wicked and will not change no matter what.

[Lutz13]

When Jesus came to this earth, He did not come with a retinue of angels. So they could not fight for Him. You are asking me to shut me eyes and turn off my brain to follow a line of interpretation that does violence to Scripture. Sorry, I can't do that.

You know, I think it is pointless to continue with you.(My patience isn't that of a saint.) There are angels all over in this world. Jesus could have called an army down at any moment...In fact, one angel could have taken out Pilot and his whole army...I fail to see your logic here...

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

When Jesus came to this earth, He did not come with a retinue of angels. So they could not fight for Him. You are asking me to shut me eyes and turn off my brain to follow a line of interpretation that does violence to Scripture. Sorry, I can't do that.

You know, I think it is pointless to continue with you.(My patience isn't that of a saint.) There are angels all over in this world. Jesus could have called an army down at any moment...In fact, one angel could have taken out Pilot and his whole army...I fail to see your logic here...

When He came, He took the form of a servant, not a king. He did not come to establish a kingdom as the Jews were expecting. In heaven He was King. He had His servants. And they did fight for Him. Look at the original Greek for the word "cast out" or "thrown out". It is not a gentle tap on the shoulder!

Like I said before, when it comes to truth, I don't shut my eyes or turn my brain off. I'd be the first to admit that I don't have all the light or the truth. It was someone else that brought me into this church and its treasures of truth. If you think you have truth, let it be square with Scripture. So far I don't see it. Too many Scriptures that contradict what you are advocating.

[Lutz13]

When He came, He took the form of a servant, not a king. He did not come to establish a kingdom as the Jews were expecting. In heaven He was King. He had His servants. And they did fight for Him. Look at the original Greek for the word "cast out" or "thrown out". It is not a gentle tap on the shoulder!

Like I said before, when it comes to truth, I don't shut my eyes or turn my brain off. I'd be the first to admit that I don't have all the light or the truth. It was someone else that brought me into this church and its treasures of truth. If you think you have truth, let it be square with Scripture. So far I don't see it. Too many Scriptures that contradict what you are advocating.

Well Gerry, the bible is full of contradictions. I'm not willing to close my eyes and pretend they are not there. That is why I am taking this journey and trying to understand them. Jesus said to learn of Him.

[Robert]

In heaven He was King. He had His servants. And they did fight for Him.

Your on crack...

Rob