Twilight Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 Quote: In this system that is being offered to us here Gerry, you would also not be able to discipline your children. Maybe you just let them misbehave, break up your furniture, smash your computer, steal your car and plow into a crowd of children, killing them. How do you deal with that? With this version of justice you would just tell them how bad they have been and pacifly sit by whilst they destroy everyone elses lives. Then you just let them bare their own "consequences"... What parent would do that? There are wonderful parents out there that do a fantastic job raising their kids. Without laying a finger on them. I have never smacked my daughter beyond one light tap on the hand to get her attention when she was a baby. But that does not mean I do not bring consequence on the child. What you are proposing here is that God does not actively bring any consequence. That all the consequences are passive on His part. Yet we know that He destroys the wicked with the brightness of His Coming. How? He reveals Himself fully in all of His glory and sin is destroyed. That is an active choice on His part, not a passive one. Your thoughts? Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 3, 2009 Moderators Posted June 3, 2009 Enjoy your destructive god Gerry. My God is not only loving; He is ALSO JUST! Interesting how someone resort to taunting when he can't argue with the truth! Let me ask you again, were you saying that to reject your picture of God is to choose death? Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted June 3, 2009 Moderators Posted June 3, 2009 p.s. I suppose you consider the capacity to feel pain as a curse rather than one of God's most precious gifts? Quote
Robert Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 You can keep playing your games, Lutz, but my Bible is too plain for me to misunderstand. Gerry...back off Lutz....The character of God is in question here....No games....Your view of God makes Satan look like a choirboy. Quote
Robert Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 Quote: Not to mention Satan has already stomped around our world "is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed its cities, who did not open the house of his prisoners?"(Isaiah 14:16-17) Was it Satan who brought in the Flood? Satan's creation, sin, caused the flood....When God was universally rejected sin had its way because God retreated. Sin paid in death. Quote
Robert Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 "Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him." Prov 13:24 ESV. "If you refuse to discipline your children, it proves you don't love them; if you love your children, you will be prompt to discipline them." [NLT] "The rod" doesn't necessarily mean a stick to beat your kids with. Many times "the rod" refers to discipline and/or authority, but I think you think child abuse is the way to do it....That's why your view of God is somewhat warped and needs corrected. I hope we can help! Quote
Robert Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 My God is not only loving; He is ALSO JUST! And we saw how God's justice works against sin in the death of Christ. Did God, 1] Actively punish Christ, who became sin, who personally knew no sin? Or 2] Did God abandon Christ, which is a passive act? Right, # 2. Why would God act differently towards the sinner? Why would God be passive towards Christ, but actively punish the sinner? Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted June 4, 2009 Moderators Posted June 4, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Quote: Not to mention Satan has already stomped around our world "is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed its cities, who did not open the house of his prisoners?"(Isaiah 14:16-17) Was it Satan who brought in the Flood? Satan's creation, sin, caused the flood....When God was universally rejected sin had its way because God retreated. Sin paid in death. Sin can create a flood, huh? Sin must be a very powerful god!!! Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted June 4, 2009 Moderators Posted June 4, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo "Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him." Prov 13:24 ESV. "If you refuse to discipline your children, it proves you don't love them; if you love your children, you will be prompt to discipline them." [NLT] "The rod" doesn't necessarily mean a stick to beat your kids with. Many times "the rod" refers to discipline and/or authority, but I think you think child abuse is the way to do it....That's why your view of God is somewhat warped and needs corrected. I hope we can help! Help me twist Scripture? No, thank you! Quote
BobRyan Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 Enjoy your destructive god Gerry. Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Twilight Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Quote: Not to mention Satan has already stomped around our world "is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed its cities, who did not open the house of his prisoners?"(Isaiah 14:16-17) Was it Satan who brought in the Flood? Satan's creation, sin, caused the flood....When God was universally rejected sin had its way because God retreated. Sin paid in death. That is stated as factual Robert. Is there even "one" text to support this view? If not, then we have to consider that the bible's plain statement is in fact true, with this as a possibility only, not as a fact. Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Lutz13 Posted June 5, 2009 Author Posted June 5, 2009 Quote: is That the God Gerry speaks of? Yeah, that one. The one Jesus speaks of too. "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a like he speaks from his own resources"(John 8:44) What murders are Jesus talking about? Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the Old Testament only show god and his people killing? You know, those deceived people who thought they were special? They thought they were better but in reality "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus."(Galatians 3:28) God doesn't play favorites. God loved them just as much as He loved the people they slaughtered in the name of God. Sounds like a certain angel took the Lords name in vain...But oh well, God gives us the freedom to choose whom we will worship. So, enjoy your god. Quote
oldsailor29 Posted June 5, 2009 Posted June 5, 2009 I believe the Lord creates, but I'm not sure anything is ever really destroyed. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall
Robert Posted June 5, 2009 Posted June 5, 2009 Sin can create a flood, huh? Sin must be a very powerful god!!! Did God make tornadoes? How about floods? Or is this the result of sin? Now try using your head.... Rob Quote
Robert Posted June 5, 2009 Posted June 5, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert "If you refuse to discipline your children, it proves you don't love them; if you love your children, you will be prompt to discipline them." [NLT'] "The rod" doesn't necessarily mean a stick to beat your kids with. Many times "the rod" refers to discipline and/or authority, but I think you think child abuse is the way to do it....That's why your view of God is somewhat warped and needs corrected. I hope we can help! Help me twist Scripture? No, thank you! Then beat your kid....They might stay in school, even get a great job with lots of $, but they'll spend their lives running from God because they'll think God is like our earthly fathers....Fear is not God's way....Again, your view of God is corrupted. Quote
Robert Posted June 5, 2009 Posted June 5, 2009 Originally Posted By: Lutz13 Enjoy your destructive god Gerry. Do you mean "this" one?? Quote: Great Controversy - 673 Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673 lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2} Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1} Quote: EW 294 The Second Death Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1} Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but 295 also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2} Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain. is That the God Gerry speaks of? in Christ, Bob Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.) The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401] We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37] Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted June 6, 2009 Moderators Posted June 6, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Help me twist Scripture? No, thank you! Then beat your kid....They might stay in school, even get a great job with lots of $, but they'll spend their lives running from God because they'll think God is like our earthly fathers....Fear is not God's way....Again, your view of God is corrupted. "Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him." Prov 22:15 ESV. Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol." Prov 23:13-14 ESV "The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother. " Prov 29:15 ESV. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight." Prov 9:10 ESV Quote
Robert Posted June 6, 2009 Posted June 6, 2009 "Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him." Prov 22:15 ESV. Quote
LifeHiscost Posted June 7, 2009 Posted June 7, 2009 When did Christ pay the debts of the world? Jesus continues to pay the price of man's continuous sinful ways. The only way to stop the price of sin is for the total destruction of those who continue to hold on to their willful sinful practices. "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame." NKJV And that's the new Covenant. In case it would discourage some, more is revealed in a more contemporary paraphrase. "For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit, And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come, If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance--[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace."Hebrews 6:4-6 AMP Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted June 7, 2009 Posted June 7, 2009 Indeed. If I only had the Old Testament as my guide, I would truly believe in a destructive God. Yet since we have the New Testament and saw who God truly was, we have a light that exposes much of what happened in the old. Our Father speaks in the language to which His creation will listen. A large portion of the old covenant was written to individuals who were use to the slaves lash, as provided by the Egyptians. Until their experience should develop beyond the force of the evil one, it was necessary to help them walk in circumspect ways until such time as it made logic to them that the rules their Father in heaven laid down in love, were for their own good. That took place under both the OC and the New Covenant. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people"Hebrews 8:10 KJV That's the New Covenant repeated and fulfilled, as taken from the Old Covenant. "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Jeremiah 31:33 NKJV Even the New Covenant people are in need of accepting the promise if they wish to share in that which Jesus is desiring to grant. Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted June 7, 2009 Posted June 7, 2009 Well Gerry, the bible is full of contradictions. Did it ever occur to you, Lutz13, that contradictions only occur because of our misunderstandings, and not because our Father deliberately allowed the texts of His Word to be confusing? " For God is not the author of confusion..."1 Corinthians 14:33 KJV "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."Matthew 4:4 KJV "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD."Isaiah 55:8 KJV "...guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are God my Savior, and my hope is in you all day long."Psalm 25:5 NIV Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted June 7, 2009 Posted June 7, 2009 Here’s one, “Thou shalt not kill (Ex. 20:13).” I think that’s very “Clear!” I use to be concerned about that one. So concerned that when I witnessed the death of an animal (I grew up on a farm) it tore at my heart. It was only later that I learned the Law was given to thinking human beings. Then I was still troubled about how men continued to kill each other. When angry I faced the reality that under the right circumstances, killing another person was not above me. However I had another question. When an innocent defenseless person was in danger of being killed by another intent on grave bodily harm, how just was it for the innocent to be tried for murder while defending him/herself? That was when I learned that more contemporary translations were more true to the spirit of the law. Otherwise our Father could be accused of breaking His own principles. " See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."Deuteronomy 32:39 KJV "“You shall not murder." Exodus 20:13 NKJV Kill can mean to eliminate life when no other solution can be seen to absolve a problem, with no malicious intent to deprive one of legal rights. Murder means to take life with malicious intent, to deprive another of whatever legal right they have to maintain life rightfully given them. Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted June 7, 2009 Posted June 7, 2009 It gets to the point where there is nothing more God can do. He doesn't force Himself on us. True! However He does do what is necessary to protect those who look to Him for protection as they do the best they know how in serving Him in obedience. "A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee."Psalm 91:7 KJV For those who forsake obedience to cater to their fallen nature, there will be an accounting, even though, by the grace of Christ, they may at last be saved. "I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:5 NASB Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted June 7, 2009 Posted June 7, 2009 In Romans 3 Paul says that God IS JUST and the JUSTIFIER of those who diligently seek HIM. But many today like to "imagine" that He is "just the Justifier -- and no longer JUST". Makes for good Calvinism - but horrible Arminianism. In Romans 3:31 Paul says "Do we then ABOLISH the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" -- But some like to imagine that Rom 3:31 just does not exist. In 1Cor 7:19 Paul says "But what MATTERs is keeping the commandments of God" But some like to imagine that Paul says "But what absolutely does NOT matter for us Christians is keeping the Commandments of God". My point is that the "imaginary Bible" is not as reliable as the real one. in Christ, Bob So good to hear the voice of reason via Holy Scripture. And all New Covenant Truth. Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
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