Obedience to God's Commandments the Fruit of Faith

[Just*]

What is the difference, if any, between works of faith and works of law?

Aren't "works of law" always legalism?

1.And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do. Ex 24:3

O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! Deut 5:29

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Rom 10:3

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2.A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. Ezek 36:26-27

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. Deut 30:6

[it is] God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect. Ps 18:32

[Just*]

Under law you must be perfect, just as God is perfect. Under grace you are perfect "in Christ". The growth you experience is demonstrative, not meritorious. But, as long as life shall last, there'll be sins in your life. You'll be falling short...so please don't judge because when you do you place yourself back under law. In other words, make one rule a condition of salvation and you must keep all the law....

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mk 16:16

So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Heb 3:19

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom 3:24

We then, [as] workers together [with him], beseech [you] also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 Cor 6:1

That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 5:21

[Just*]

You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt.5:48.

[LifeHiscost]

What kind of works did Christ do-- works of faith or works of law?

Since Jesus said He did nothing without His Father, I would suggest it would be works of faith. He then accomplished that which glorified our Father in heaven, which is only what He asks of us.

"So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me." John 8:28 NASB

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Robert, are you always this condescending?

ahh yes. Sorry Robert.

[LifeHiscost]

For by one offering he hath 1)perfected for ever them that are 2)sanctified. Heb 10:14

1)And ye are complete in him, Col 2:10

2)And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.1 Thessalonians 5:23

"Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”"Revelation 12:10-12 NKJV

Praise God! :Jesusfish:

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

What is the context?

You tell me....Open your Bible and mind....

Yes he is, Richard.

[LifeHiscost]

HEY ROBERT

WHEN I said JESUS would make up the difference

what I mean is JESUS is covering HIS followers

with HIS rightiousness and giving HIS followers

access to the HOLY SPIRIT

dgrimm60

[LifeHiscost]

I see "works of the law" as distinct from works of faith. Works of law come out of a desire to obey law because of either fear of punishment or in order to gain a reward. Those are done under the Old Covenant or in a mind-set of the Old Covenant.

While I believe the ideal is of accomplishing for love, nowhere in the Bible that I'm aware of, is it ever implied that it is a grievous sin(or even a small sin) to work for reward. The Truth about the seven last churches in Revelation is that reward is held out as a positive reason for overcoming. And even Jesus, in His great sacrifice for us, gave us this information about His own attitude in receiving the fruits of His labor of love.

"Of the labour of his soul he seeth -- he is satisfied, Through his knowledge give righteousness Doth the righteous one, My servant, to many, And their iniquities he doth bear.

Therefore I give a portion to him among the many, And with the mighty he apportioneth spoil, Because that he exposed to death his soul, And with transgressors he was numbered, And he the sin of many hath borne, And for transgressors he intercedeth. "Isaiah 53:11,12 YLT

...looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."Hebrews 12:2 NKJV

Blessings!

[Robert]

You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt.5:48.

Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” Matt.19:21.

So Robert, are you are saying that Jesus did not mean what He said? Where else did Jesus say anything He did not mean?

Yes, He meant exactly what He said within the context of your quote. Now, why did God give the Jews the OC? He knew they couldn't keep it, but He gave it anyway! Why?

[Robert]

But I think selfish fear is primary.

Bad,...very bad!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Would you also have us stop loving our wives, Robert, as Jesus gave us example in how He loves the church, the body of Christ.

Jesus loved the church, His people, even when they committed spiritual adultery. In fact on the cross Christ was willing to say goodbye to life forever so that "the church" might have heaven in His place.

Would you love your wife if she slept with other men? Not just a mistake, but deliberately! Would you still love her if she gave you AIDS in the process?

Well, Christ loved His own even though His own placed Him on a Roman cross. He loved her when she (Israel) was a whore. That's "loving your neighbor (even your enemy) as yourself."

You did put that beautifully, Robert. So well in fact, that I happen to agree with you almost completely.

At the risk of responding with the same mind that Peter had when he said to Jesus; "Though all these others leave you, Master, I won't!",

it is my good intention to do whatever is necessary to give my wife the best of my love, whatever she designs to do. Hopefully God will answer my prayer to keep her in His love, so I won't ever have to face that kind of circumstance. So far our Father has never disappointed me in my expectations re: to her faithfulness or any other request I've made of Him.

You need to know that when God chose my present wife for me, I had already come to the conclusion that God wanted me to be the right person, rather than waiting for the right person. This, of course, required a great deal of patience on the Lord's part, while He waited for me to accept His sanctified life as a husband to be. Not all, you understand, but what I was able to receive up to this point of time.

OTOH, you haven't answered my question underlined above.

Blessings!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What kind of works did Christ do-- works of faith or works of law?

Since Jesus said He did nothing without His Father, I would suggest it would be works of faith. He then accomplished that which glorified our Father in heaven, which is only what He asks of us.

"So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me." John 8:28 NASB

Excellent answer. Thanks.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I see "works of the law" as distinct from works of faith. Works of law come out of a desire to obey law because of either fear of punishment or in order to gain a reward. Those are done under the Old Covenant or in a mind-set of the Old Covenant.

While I believe the ideal is of accomplishing for love, nowhere in the Bible that I'm aware of, is it ever implied that it is a grievous sin(or even a small sin) to work for reward. The Truth about the seven last churches in Revelation is that reward is held out as a positive reason for overcoming. And even Jesus, in His great sacrifice for us, gave us this information about His own attitude in receiving the fruits of His labor of love.

I understand what you're saying. The rewards and punishments are there-- yes.

But wouldn't Jesus have died on the cross even if He thought He might be separated from the FAther for eternity?

We're told He couldn't see through the portal of the tomb.

Moses was willing to give up all hope of reward for the salvation of the rebellious, unloving Hebrew people he loved. That was agape/love-- unconditional love.

Did Jesus require the rewards in order to die for us?

Check this out:

Even doubts assailed the dying Son of God. He could not see through the portals of the tomb. Bright hope did not present to him his coming forth from the tomb a conqueror, and his Father's acceptance of his sacrifice. The sin of the world with all its terribleness was felt to the utmost by the Son of God. The displeasure of the Father for sin, and its penalty, which was death, were all that he could realize through this amazing darkness. He was tempted to fear that sin was so offensive in the sight of his Father that he could not be reconciled to his Son. The fierce temptation that his own Father had forever left him, caused that piercing cry from the cross "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" {ST, February 15, 1883 par. 3}

Faith and hope trembled in the expiring agonies of Christ, because God had removed the assurance he had heretofore given his beloved Son of his approbation and acceptance. The Redeemer of the world then relied upon the evidences which had hitherto strengthened him, that his Father accepted his labors and was pleased with his work. In his dying agony, as he yields up his precious life, he has by faith alone to trust in Him whom it has ever been his joy to obey. He is not cheered with clear, bright rays of hope on the right hand nor on the left. All is enshrouded in oppressive gloom. Amid the awful darkness which is felt even by sympathizing nature, the Redeemer drains the mysterious cup even to its dregs. Denied even bright hope and confidence in the triumph which will be his in the near future, he cries with a loud voice, "Lord into thy hands I commit my spirit." {ST, February 15, 1883 par. 5}

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And what does being released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not the old way?

Does it mean you can keep on stealing or stop stealing? Keep on fornicating or stop fornicating? Meaner or kinder? Hater or lover?

More rebellious or more obedient?

That's the question you have been dodging whenever you talk about growth in the Christian. Somehow I have the distinct impression that to you obedience = legalism.

Under law you must be perfect, just as God is perfect. Under grace you are perfect "in Christ". The growth you experience is demonstrative, not meritorious. But, as long as life shall last, there'll be sins in your life. You'll be falling short...so please don't judge because when you do you place yourself back under law. In other words, make one rule a condition of salvation and you must keep all the law....

You are still dodging the question!!!!!! When you grow in grace, what does it mean? Do you become meaner or kinder? Continue stealing or stop stealing? Continue fornicating or stop fornicating? Less loving or more loving? More rebellious or more obedient?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

it becomes very obvious to me that the Bible must be talking about TWO levels of keeping the commandments. 1) Perfect obedience in the ultimate meaning of "perfect" which only ONE Person has ever attained to, 2) Less than "perfect" obedience to which believers can attain.

The watered down version? Hmmm? Interesting....

What you call the "watered-down version" is grace in operation! Per your definition of obedience which must mean #1 because in your view nobody "measures up," everybody is "falling short." But as I pointed out, the Apostle John refer to a people "who keep the commandments of God," and claimed, "whoever abides in Him does not keep on sinning." And Jesus himself said, "Go and sin no more."

So either you expand your view of what it means to keep the commandments or the Scripture is in error.

[Richard Holbrook]

But wouldn't Jesus have died on the cross even if He thought He would be separated from the FAther for eternity?

I think Jesus would have done it anyway, or did do it anyway. This is something we cannot understand, because that kind of love is infinite and we are finite. Sister white says that he would have died even if just one of us would have been saved by it, which also is pretty amazing.

In the parable of the Lost Sheep the shepherd goes out to search for one sheep,--the very least that can be numbered. So if there had been but one lost soul, Christ would have died for that one. {ST, December 16, 1903 par. 1}

Even though but few accept the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, their work will not be in vain; for one soul is precious, very precious, in the sight of God. Christ would have died for one soul in order that that one might live through the eternal ages. {8T 72.3}

[Musicman1228]

The bottom line question is this:

What on earth did Jesus Christ die for?

[John317]

God loved people so much that He gave His one and only Son so that whosoever believes and trusts in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3: 16

[Richard Holbrook]

God loved people so much that He gave His one and only Son so that whosoever believes and trusts in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3: 16

You know we do a lot of debating on this forum, and even arguing sometimes, but I heard it put forth just the other day by a SDA preacher that: There is enough information in that one text for a person to be saved.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

God loved people so much that He gave His one and only Son so that whosoever believes and trusts in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3: 16

You know we do a lot of debating on this forum, and even arguing sometimes, but I heard it put forth just the other day by a SDA preacher that: There is enough information in that one text for a person to be saved.

I agree with that.

Notice that the verb, "believes," is present tense, which means it signifies continuous trust/confidence, reliance in Christ.

[Woody]

Quote:

"Notice that the verb, "believes," is present tense"

True. Which is why it is good for us to be able to proclaim that we "Are saved". We can know that for certain. Just last Sabbath Doug Bachlor encouraged people to proclaim this to the Christian world.

Jesus did this frequently. He would proclaim things to be such and such ... when in the end ... it was conditional. And so is our saved status. It is conditional upon us still wanting the Salvation that we have accepted.

[Just*]

What on earth did Jesus Christ die for?

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.Romans 3:19

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us:Galatians 3:13

he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Heb 2:9

Who gave himself a ransom for all,1 Timothy 2:6

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:Romans 3:24

[John317]

Quote:

"Notice that the verb, "believes," is present tense"

True. Which is why it is good for us to be able to proclaim that we "Are saved". We can know that for certain. Just last Sabbath Doug Bachlor encouraged people to proclaim this to the Christian world.

Peter's fall was not instantaneous, but gradual. Self-confidence led him to the belief that he was saved, and step after step was taken in the downward path, until he could deny his Master. Never can we safely put confidence in self or feel, this side of heaven, that we are secure against temptation. Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved.

[NOTE: IT IS THE PRIVILEGE OF THE CHRISTIAN TO KNOW THAT ON HIS ACCEPTANCE OF CHRIST HE IS SAVED FROM HIS SINS AND CAN REJOICE IN THIS SALVATION. BUT NEITHER THE SCRIPTURES NOR THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY WRITINGS SUPPORTS THE POPULAR TEACHING: "ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED." A PERSON MAY BE SAVED TODAY, BUT FAILING TO KEEP HIS EYES ON JESUS AND TO GROW DAILY IN HIM, MAY BECOME SELF-CONFIDENT AND BE LOST TOMORROW. THE APOSTLE PAUL DECLARED, "I DIE DAILY." IN A SENSE, CONVERSION IS A DAILY EXPERIENCE. {NL 42.1}

STUDY CAREFULLY THE WARNING DRAWN FROM THE LESSON IN PETER'S LIFE. READ IT IN ITS FULL CONTEXT AND IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE SIMILAR STATEMENT THAT FOLLOWS. YOU WILL FIND THE PERPLEXING PASSAGE TO BE SELF-EXPLANATORY. OUR LORD WOULD HAVE EACH CHRISTIAN REJOICE FREELY IN HIS THE SALVATION HE ENJOYS DAILY. AND WHEN ASKED, "ARE YOU SAVED?" HE CAN WITH ASSURANCE ANSWER YES. HE WILL EXPLAIN THAT THIS EXPERIENCE IS ONE THAT RESULTS IN CONSTANT DEPENDENCE ON GOD AND IN DAILY CHRISTIAN GROWTH.--WHITE TRUSTEES.]

This is misleading. Every one should be taught to cherish hope and faith; but even when we give ourselves to Christ and know that He accepts us, we are not beyond the reach of temptation. God's Word declares, "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried" (Dan. 12:10). Only he who endures the trial will receive the crown of life (James 1:12).

Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves. They lose sight of their own weakness and their constant need of divine strength. They are unprepared for Satan's devices, and under temptation many, like Peter, fall into the very depths of sin. We are admonished, "Let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor. 10:12). Our only safety is in constant distrust of self, and dependence on Christ. [CHRIST'S OBJECT LESSONS, PP. 154, 155.] {NL 42.2}

[Richard Holbrook]

As long as I'm still here on this sinful earth, I'm not yet saved. I am however saved from the things I used to do. On a daily basis.

Eze 18:24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.