Obedience to God's Commandments the Fruit of Faith

[LifeHiscost]

I understand what you're saying. The rewards and punishments are there-- yes.

But wouldn't Jesus have died on the cross even if He thought He might be separated from the FAther for eternity?

We're told He couldn't see through the portal of the tomb.

Most definitely. This of course, is the greatest difference between Jesus and we disciples. There is always, in my estimation, an undercurrent in fallen humanity, of "What's in it for me?". Perhaps that is why Jesus uses the rewards in the Revelation.

OTOH if there were a better way I think Jesus would have used the better way. Jesus willingness to actually trade places with me for eternal life is so mind-boggling, I can hardly get my mind around it.

It seems to me, that sacrifice was a one time circumstance since no other would suffice for the sinful human, not meant as an indictment making rewards an evil pursuit.

The same exists in our willingness to deny ourselves for the sake of the possibility of someone else's eternal security.

"Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."Luke 9:23 NIV

While the denial is specifically and primarily done for the salvation of someone's soul, it is not evil to entertain the fruit of having done well.

"His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'" Matthew 25:21 NASB

"But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”"Matthew 13:23 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: John317

God loved people so much that He gave His one and only Son so that whosoever believes and trusts in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3: 16

You know we do a lot of debating on this forum, and even arguing sometimes, but I heard it put forth just the other day by a SDA preacher that: There is enough information in that one text for a person to be saved.

Hallelujah! And if that means what I think it says, then Jesus can find a way to legally allow a legalist into His Kingdom. I believe He does everything He does, legally.

"Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." Hebrews 7:25 NKJV

Blessings!

[Richard Holbrook]

Who are you calling a legalist?

[LifeHiscost]

As long as I'm still here on this sinful earth, I'm not yet saved. I am however saved from the things I used to do. On a daily basis.

Eze 18:24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

You may not feel like you're saved, Richard, but the reality is;

"“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."John 5:24 NKJV

I'm suggesting Lucifer once had eternal life. It was when he turned into the adversary, Satan, that life escaped him. Lucifer always had eternal life. It was the adversary that lost out.

"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." John 8:44 NKJV

I can remember as a child, though not knowing Jesus from Adam's off ox, I still wanted good to prevail, even when I was suffering from the ill affects of my own sinful behavior. The above scripture does not speak to everyone born in sin. Only to those who are sinful and are happy to maintain it.

Jesus will make the separation at the harvest.

"Do you not say, 'Four months more and then the harvest'? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest." John 4:35 NIV

"... and another messenger did come forth out of the sanctuary crying in a great voice to him who is sitting upon the cloud, `Send forth thy sickle and reap, because come to thee hath the hour of reaping, because ripe hath been the harvest of the earth;'"

Revelation 14:15 YLT

Blessings!

[Richard Holbrook]

I know, but we still have to choose everyday. I could wake up tommorrow and choose to turn my back on God just like Lucifer.

Now after were sealed, we're home free.

Adam's off ox?...I've heard of Adam's house cat.

[Musicman1228]

LifeHiscost,

You are right on the money when you say that God does everything legally. God's character is reflected in the Ten Commandments. He is bound by His own Laws just as we are bound by them. If the law of God no longer applies then does God issue grace to Himself? If He holds Himself accountable to the Law why on earth would He release our accountability to the law through grace? The Law provides a way for God to find out who loves Him and is willing to obey Him or not. Salvation by grace through faith precludes Him from finding out whether ANYONE loves Him because now He has no legal way to find out. The law is done away with and He just has to guess?

Robert, it is said that God does not look on the outward appearance (law) but God looks on the heart (grace). If this is the case then tell me how does He know what your heart really looks like if grace is in the way? If all He is able to see is Jesus Christ standing in the way between the sinner and God, how can God know for sure that the sinner is repentant, regenerate, and holy?

Is all that is required that the sinner tell Jesus that he believes in Him, and then Jesus stands in for the sinner before God and tells God that the sinner has confessed the name of Jesus and claimed His blood so everything is cool? The first question God is going ask Jesus is "How do you know he means it?"

And that is my question: how does God KNOW for sure that the sinner actually means what he says? Is God to believe the word of a sinner without solid proof? Would this kind of thing stand in a court of law here on earth, or would the judge throw it out because of insufficient evidence?

[Richard Holbrook]

Musicman, People who properly understand grace do not throw out the law. You don't seem to like that word very much, maybe you just don't understand it properly. Grace is actually the power to keep the law.

Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Here's some Old Testament grace.

Exd 34:9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

Jdg 6:17 And he said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, then shew me a sign that thou talkest with me.

[Richard Holbrook]

Act 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

2Cr 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

[wayfinder]

Ga 3:10

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

[Richard Holbrook]

But God does not use His grace to make His law of none effect, or to take the place of His law. . . . God's grace and the law of His kingdom are in perfect harmony; they walk hand in hand. His grace makes it possible for us to draw nigh to Him by faith.

By receiving it, and letting it work in our lives, we testify to the validity of the law; we exalt the law and make it honorable by carrying out its living principles through the power of the grace of Christ; and by rendering pure, whole-hearted obedience to God's law, we witness before the universe of heaven, and before an apostate world that is making void the law of God, to the power of redemption. {AG 10.3}

Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

[John317]

Ga 3:10

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

Ga 3:10

Paul is here saying that "as many as rely on the works of law" to be set right with God, or justified, are under a curse. Why? Because by the law shall no man be justified, or put right with God (Gal. 2: 16). In terms of justification, the law can only condemn. The law provides no forgiveness. To be justified by law is an impossibility, because in order to be justified by law, it is necessary to obey the law perfectly. For the purpose of justification, the law requires flawless obedience, of the kind that Jesus Christ alone rendered.

Gal. 3: 17, 18 show that the law is not at odds with God's promise (grace). According to Gal. 2: 21, if we attempt to be justified by works of law, we nullify, or set aside, the grace of God. Nullifying God's grace is obviously only condemning ourselves to eternal death.

[Richard Holbrook]

Self reliance is something that God actually hates.

[Richard Holbrook]

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I understand what you're saying. The rewards and punishments are there-- yes.

But wouldn't Jesus have died on the cross even if He thought He might be separated from the FAther for eternity?

We're told He couldn't see through the portal of the tomb.

Most definitely. This of course, is the greatest difference between Jesus and we disciples. There is always, in my estimation, an undercurrent in fallen humanity, of "What's in it for me?". Perhaps that is why Jesus uses the rewards in the Revelation.

The 1888 Message is that God is waiting for His people to have the same agape-love that Jesus had. That motive will be the motive of the last generation to be sealed and obedient to God's commandments under threat of death.

Agape/love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13: 10. It really means that unconditional, unselfish love is the only fulfillment of the law.

This hasn't been fully grasped by protestants up to now. That is what's very different between the Adventist view of righteousness by faith and the view of the protestant reformers. True obedience is motivated by agape/love. This love, once it is understood and applied by the Holy Spirit, will cause God's people to obey all of God's commandments even under the most trying circumstances that the world has ever seen.

[Richard Holbrook]

Wasn't it around 1888 when Jones and Wagoner came around?

[Just*]

The 1888 Message is that God is waiting for His people to have the same agape-love that Jesus had. That motive will be the motive of the 144,000 to be sealed and obedient to God's commandments under threat of death.

the motive of the 144,000:

Psalm 63:3 Because thy lovingkindness is better than life,

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[John317]

Yes, that's right.

Here are some of the statements that Ellen White made about A.T. Jones and E.J. Waggoner and their message--

When I stated before my brethren that I had heard for the first time the views of Elder E. J. Waggoner, some did not believe me. I stated that I had heard precious truths uttered that I could respond to with all my heart, for had not these great and glorious truths, the righteousness of Christ and the entire sacrifice made in behalf of man, been imprinted indelibly on my mind by the Spirit of God? Has not this subject been presented in the testimonies again and again? When the Lord had given to my brethren the burden to proclaim this message I felt inexpressibly grateful to God, for I knew it was the message for this time. {1888 217.2}

The third angel's message is the proclamation of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ. The commandments of God have been proclaimed, but the faith of Jesus Christ has not been proclaimed by Seventh-day Adventists as of equal importance, the law and the gospel going hand in hand. I cannot find language to express this subject in its fullness. {1888 217.3}

"The faith of Jesus." It is talked of, but not understood. What constitutes the faith of Jesus, that belongs, to the third angel's message? Jesus becoming our sin-bearer that He might become our sin-pardoning Saviour. He was treated as we deserve to be treated. He came to our world and took our sins that we might take His righteousness. Faith in the ability of Christ to save us amply and fully and entirely is the faith of Jesus.

{1888 217.4}

There is salvation for the sinner in the blood of Jesus Christ alone, which cleanseth us from all sin. The man with a cultivated intellect may have vast stores of knowledge, he may engage in theological speculations, he may be great and honored of men and be considered the repository of knowledge, but unless he has a saving knowledge of Christ crucified for him, and by faith lays hold of the righteousness of Christ, he is lost. Christ "was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed" (Isa. 53:5). "Saved by the blood of Jesus Christ," will be our only hope for time and our song throughout eternity. {1888 218.1}

Then the question was asked whether I thought the matter better drop where it was, after Brother Waggoner had stated his views of the law in Galatians. I said, "By no means. We want all on both sides of the question." But I stated that the spirit I had seen manifested at the meeting was unreasonable. I insisted that there should be a right spirit, a Christlike spirit manifested, such as Elder E. J. Waggoner had shown all through the presentation of his views; and that this matter should not be handled in a debating style. I urged that this matter should be handled in a Christlike spirit and that there should be no thrust made against the brethren who differed with them. As Elder E. J. Waggoner had conducted himself like a Christian gentleman they should do the same, giving the arguments on their side of the question in a straightforward manner. {1888 219.3}

Elder Waggoner had taken a straightforward course, not involving personalities, to thrust anyone or to ridicule anyone. He conducted the subject as a Christian gentleman should, in a kind and courteous manner. This was acknowledged to be the case by those who were holding opposite views. If only Elder _____ had done the same, and had entered, upon the work without these preliminaries before a large congregation, many not of our faith being present! Their course of action and their expressed ideas and objections against presenting these subjects before even our own people did not harmonize. {1888 222.2}

The Lord was testing and proving His people who had had great light, whether they would walk in it or turn from it under temptation, for but few know what manner of spirit they are of until circumstances shall be of a character to test the spirit which prompts to action. In many the natural heart is a controlling power, and yet they do not suppose that pride and prejudice are entertained as cherished guests, and work in words and actions against light and truth. {1888 226.2}

God.... has given these men [A. T. Jones and E. J. Waggoner] a work to do, and a message to bear which is present truth for this time. They knew that wherever this message comes its fruits are good. A vigor and a vital energy are brought into the church, and where the message is accepted, there hope and courage and faith beam in the countenances of all those who open their eyes to see, their understanding to perceive and their hearts to receive the great treasure of truth. {1888 228.1}

Holding up Christ as our only source of strength, presenting His matchless love in having the guilt of the sins of men charged to His account and His own righteousness imputed to man, in no case does away with the law or detracts from its dignity. Rather, it places it where the correct light shines upon and glorifies it. This is done only through the light reflected from the cross of Calvary. The law is complete and full in the great plan of salvation, only as it is presented in the light shining from the crucified and risen Saviour. This can be only spiritually discerned. It kindles in the heart of the beholder ardent faith, hope, and joy that Christ is his righteousness. This joy is only for those who love and keep the words of Jesus, which are the words of God. Were my brethren in the light the words that the Lord gave me for them would find a response in the hearts of those for whom I labored.

{1888 228.2}

I wished to meditate, to pray, [that I might know] in what manner we could work to present the subject of sin and atonement in the Bible light before the people. They were greatly needing this kind of instruction that they might give the light to others and have the blessed privilege of being workers together with God in gathering in and bringing home the sheep of His fold. What power must we have from God that icy hearts, having only a legal religion, should see the better things provided for them--Christ and His righteousness! A life-giving message was needed to give life to the dry bones.--Ms. 24, 1888. ("Looking Back at Minneapolis," written in November or December, 1888.)

[Richard Holbrook]

Thanks for posting that

[Robert]

You are still dodging the question!!!!!! When you grow in grace, what does it mean? Do you become meaner or kinder?

A change proves your faith, not your righteousness. The law gives no credit....Therefore to be under law is death.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The watered down version? Hmmm? Interesting.... [/quote']

What you call the "watered-down version" is grace in operation! Per your definition of obedience which must mean #1 because in your view nobody "measures up," everybody is "falling short." But as I pointed out, the Apostle John refer to a people "who keep the commandments of God," and claimed, "whoever abides in Him does not keep on sinning." And Jesus himself said, "Go and sin no more."

So either you expand your view of what it means to keep the commandments or the Scripture is in error.

As usual you lift quotes out of their context to present perfectionism. You can't be a sinner and a law keeper simultaneously. As to falling short re-read 1 John 1:8 for starters....

[Robert]

The bottom line question is this:

What on earth did Jesus Christ die for?

Because you had to die...and you did in the body of Christ....See Romans 6:6, 7:4 for starters....The law demands your death....If you didn't die "in Christ" the law has not been satisfied and you still remain under law. Re-read Gal 4:4

[Robert]

As long as I'm still here on this sinful earth, I'm not yet saved.

Bull! If you have Christ you have salvation now....Otherwise you must place your confidence in your righteousness, which is filthy rags....

[Robert]

I know, but we still have to choose everyday. I could wake up tommorrow and choose to turn my back on God just like Lucifer.

It doesn't happen overnight....Besides, if you want to be lost get into legalism....

[Robert]

In terms of justification, the law can only condemn.

To be "just" means to be righteous before God. In terms of sanctification the law can only condemn too because it accepts nothing short of Christ's life....

[Just*]

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 11:6 otherwise grace is no more grace.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

2 Timothy 1:9 not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,