"Released from the Law"

[John317]

Have you done a word study on #5056?

Check out carefully the use of this word telos in the following verses:

Romans 6: 21, 22-- "the end of those things;" "the end, everlasting life;" (the final result);

1 Thess. 2: 16-- "uttermost"; (completely);

1 Tim. 1: 5-- "the end[telos] of the commandment"; (object, purpose, goal);

James 5: 11-- "end[telos] of the Lord"; (purpose or goal);

1 Peter 1: 9-- "the end[telos] of your faith." (ie., result of, outcome, consummation, goal)

In light of the above, please reconsider:

Have you looked at other ways that expression, "end of the law," in Romans 10:4, can be understood? There are two ways it may be understood in Paul's theology, both of which have validity:

1) Jesus Christ is the goal of the law; and 2) Christ is the end of the law for the purpose of justification and righteousness.

Consider Charles Williams' translation: "For Christ has put an end to law as a way to right standing for everyone who puts his trust in Him [Christ]."

Another good translation (Letters From Paul, Blackwelder): Indeed, Christ is the fulfillment [of everything in the whole realm] of law for righteousness to every individual who is trusting [in him]."

[Dr. Rich]

Does anyone see the confusion that was created by all of this? No wonder there are so many denominations--each believing what they want from Paul's words! It was my dad (bless his heart) that came into the SDA church because of EGW's simple book called "Steps to Christ". My mom was a second or third generation SDA. Then he started reading the rest of her books and became totally confused with many issues that he finally said--OK--I will just be a nice guy and keep the ten commandments because Jesus said to do this for salvation. Did he have faith in Jesus? NO--he had complete trust in Jesus.

Last night on 3ABN they had a great discussion on keeping the law and the need to do this--but then the ended up saying that no one is saved by keeping the law since we are saved by grace through faith. Do you know how confusing this would be to new people? By keeping the ten commandments you become beholding and righteous. This then brings you to sanctification. It's just that simple!

[wayfinder]

John317, I did on the Rom. 10:4 not on the others. I am still researching the context of this text.

[John317]

Did he have faith in Jesus? NO--he had complete trust in Jesus.

Having faith in Jesus and having complete trust in Jesus is one and the same thing biblically. It the same word for both concepts and words, pitis. If you look in a Greek-English Lexicon, it will give you the definitions: "belief, faith, trust, confidence in God." It can also mean "faithfulness, reliability, trustworthiness."

[Ron Amnsn]

Matthew 5:17, 18 and 19 vs Eph 2:8,

[John317]

Last night on 3ABN they had a great discussion on keeping the law and the need to do this--but then the ended up saying that no one is saved by keeping the law since we are saved by grace through faith. Do you know how confusing this would be to new people? By keeping the ten commandments you become beholding and righteous. This then brings you to sanctification. It's just that simple!

But no one can keep God's law without first experiencing conversion, or being born of the Spirit. A person who is unconverted can try all they want for years and years, and he will only have failure, because he will be like the man of Romans 7 who is trying to obey God in the flesh, on his own power and strength. That is Old Covenant. He is doomed to failure. So that kind of obedience doesn't bring you to sanctification but only to slavery to law and sin and finally death. That is the message of Romans 8; John 1: 12, 13; John 3: 3-18; 1 John 3: 1-10.

[wayfinder]

Gal.5:1-4 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Gal.5:11,12 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.

Just an observation. Would someone who was living a Torah-observant lifestyle, say such things about circumcision?

Who would be troubling his congregation in Galatia about circumcision, certainly not orthodox Jews, they wouldn't be caught anywhere near these Gentiles, especially Gentile Christians. No those who would even mutilate themselves, must be Messianic Jews, James and the Jerusalem church maybe.

[Ron Amnsn]

Paul's doctrine is the same doctrine of Balaam. Paul taught that eating meat sacrificed to Idols meant nothing.

[Dr. Rich]

John, can you please get me to understand how someone who keeps all of the Ten Commandments is not righteous? Having read them many times, it appears that if you don't have any other god before the Creator, you are totally trusting in Him--Right? This by definition and deduction would mean that you totally believe in God/Jesus. If you didn’t, then you, (again by definition) would not be keeping the Ten Commandments.

I believe John presented this picture perfectly in 1John 5:18. And this is why—Jesus was the only one during His entire life to keep all of the Ten Commandments. He told His disciples that He became sanctified in order/so that the disciples could do the same.

Jesus never said anything about Him being saved by grace because of His faith in the Father, since He had no sin in Him the grave could not keep Him. I trust in the words in Jesus when He said the only way for eternal life is through the complete obedience of what God commanded—the Ten Commandments.

These Ten Commandments are the test for everyone who wants everlasting life, or the right to eat from the tree of life, just as obeying what God had commanded Adam to do and not to do. The Ten Commandments are to us the TEST—to see if we pass it or not.

Jesus had to pass this same test and He said He did. Now it is our turn. You will have to do this on your own—because NO one is going to help you make this choice, just as no one helped Adam to make the choice.

[Guest]

Jesus said without him you can do nothing.

[Dr. Rich]

He did?

[Guest]

Jhn 15:5 .... for without me ye can do nothing.

You didn't know that?

[Dr. Rich]

RH, read the whole verse, and chapter. Jesus specifically said you must ABIDE in Him--meaning you must obey what He said to do. BTW--Chapter 14, 15, 16 and 17 Jesus was talking to His 12 disciples. It is an assumption that one makes that He was talking to you. The only way one can abide in Jesus through the 12 disciples is through their words. Luke and Paul were not among this group.

[Dr. Rich]

BTW--Paul lied when he said that no one gave him any gospel other than thru the revelations--because he heard the gospel given by Steven.

[Guest]

He said:

Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

[John317]

I trust in the words in Jesus when He said the only way for eternal life is through the complete obedience of what God commanded—the Ten Commandments.

These Ten Commandments are the test for everyone who wants everlasting life, or the right to eat from the tree of life, just as obeying what God had commanded Adam to do and not to do. The Ten Commandments are to us the TEST—to see if we pass it or not.

Jesus had to pass this same test and He said He did. Now it is our turn. You will have to do this on your own—because NO one is going to help you make this choice, just as no one helped Adam to make the choice.

Again, Dr. Rich, if you or I are thinking that we can obey the commandments in order to gain eternal life, and if we think that we can obey these commandments without Christ's help-- all I can say is that is absolutely impossible.

In order to gain eternal life through obedience to the commandments, it would be necessary to obey them all of one's life and never to have sinned-- the same way that Christ lived. The law of God offers no forgiveness and no salvation to those who've violated the law. The law can only condemn. The law shows us God's will and God's ideal but it cannot forgive us once we have disobeyed it. It requires total and complete obedience not only in behavior but in our intentions and in our thinking.

Only God can change us from the inside so that we love God's law and have it written by His Holy Spirit on our hearts and minds. That doesn't happen unless the Spirit is inside us and controlling us. He gives us new motives and new desires, those of God's Spirit. We need God's seed, or nature-- and this comes only from being born from above. See 1 John 3: 1-10, esp. v. 9.

[Dr. Rich]

RH and John317, have you been born from above? Have you been born of the Holy Spirit? If both of you have been born of the Spirit, then you would not be practicing and lie or even have a lie in your mouth, would you?

[Guest]

I don't have a lie in my mouth. Not saying I have never lied.

[John317]

I trust in the words in Jesus when He said the only way for eternal life is through the complete obedience of what God commanded—the Ten Commandments.

These Ten Commandments are the test for everyone who wants everlasting life, or the right to eat from the tree of life, just as obeying what God had commanded Adam to do and not to do. The Ten Commandments are to us the TEST—to see if we pass it or not.

Jesus had to pass this same test and He said He did. Now it is our turn. You will have to do this on your own—because NO one is going to help you make this choice, just as no one helped Adam to make the choice.

Are you serious, that you think Jesus means for you to get eternal life by "complete obedience to the Ten commandments"?

And you mean that you are going to do it on your own without ANY one helping you?

When are you going to start?

I do believe that with God's Spirit we can obey God's commandments, but NOT IN ORDER to gain eternal life. You have that all wrong, Dr. Rich.

Let me ask you: Did God give the law to slaves? Or did He first set the slaves free and then give them His law?

God doesn't expect slaves to obey Him. He knows slaves can't obey Him. He sets us free first and gives us His Spirit to be with us and IN US and fill us.

How can you understand this if you don't understand or haven't experienced the new birth, and are confused about what it means to "die daily"?

[John317]

You have some serious misunderstanding about these things, Dr. Rich. All I would say is stay with us and keep coming back. Keep an open mind like you say we should have, and keep praying for us as we pray for you.

I have to go to bed now. I'm trying to improve my health habits, including sleeping like normal people do. Maybe talk tomorrow.

[Guest]

Ditto

[John317]

Give your cute doggie a hug and a kiss for me.

And so to bed, as Mr. Samuel Pepys once said.

[Ron Amnsn]

Circumcision--1Cor 7:18,19 Gal 5:1-6

[Lutz13]

John, can you please get me to understand how someone who keeps all of the Ten Commandments is not righteous? Having read them many times, it appears that if you don't have any other god before the Creator, you are totally trusting in Him--Right? This by definition and deduction would mean that you totally believe in God/Jesus. If you didn’t, then you, (again by definition) would not be keeping the Ten Commandments.

I believe John presented this picture perfectly in 1John 5:18. And this is why—Jesus was the only one during His entire life to keep all of the Ten Commandments. He told His disciples that He became sanctified in order/so that the disciples could do the same.

Jesus never said anything about Him being saved by grace because of His faith in the Father, since He had no sin in Him the grave could not keep Him. I trust in the words in Jesus when He said the only way for eternal life is through the complete obedience of what God commanded—the Ten Commandments.

These Ten Commandments are the test for everyone who wants everlasting life, or the right to eat from the tree of life, just as obeying what God had commanded Adam to do and not to do. The Ten Commandments are to us the TEST—to see if we pass it or not.

Jesus had to pass this same test and He said He did. Now it is our turn. You will have to do this on your own—because NO one is going to help you make this choice, just as no one helped Adam to make the choice.

Good luck with that...If you can do it, you're a much better person than myself. I tried and failed miserably. So I asked God for help, because I realized I couldn't do it on my own.

[Dr. Rich]

Wow John317, are you really messed up in your thinking because someone has led you astray! NO WHERE did God say anything about the ten commandments being given to free or slaves--they were given to ONLY those that wanted to be in the Kingdom of Heaven. It makes no difference what nationality or race someone comes from--all that matters is that they obey the law of the land of the Kingdom--the Kingdom of God. And there were not given ONLY to Israel--God said many times that anyone could come in and be in the Kingdom, but FIRST they had to obey the law(s)!

And Ron wrote: "When Christians read Paul's statements about circumcision in the normal out-of-historical-context manner it certainly does look like Paul contradicts both himself and the Old Testament."

Ron, I consider myself a highly educated man who should be able to fully understand what is written in the bible by Paul. I know the history backwards and forwards for that time. There is nothing--and I mean nothing lacking here--Paul simply stated that circumcision was a useless act.

We are arguing over this because of the confusion Paul caused--PERIOD! Hello??? Where is everybody here? Paul would say one thing--then he would vacillate and say the opposite so everyone would debate and argue over what he said. I seriously believe this was intentional—so much so that now we have a world full of people who call themselves “Christians” and all of them have different opinions of what that means. Well-so much for Jesus’ pray for unity in John 17—right?

I am telling you and warning you and I can’t make it strong enough that the ONLY way for unity among those who want to be on the narrow road and enter the narrow gate is to go back to the real foundation (Matthew 7) and that is the words of Jesus ONLY which was given to us by His eyewitnesses.