"Released from the Law"

[Guest]

Well I'm glad it left you alone.

[wayfinder]

Thank you RH, God is my strength and my best friend, I have loved Him and interacted with Him for as long as I can remember and He has never let me down.

I had an interesting experience two or three weeks ago. I was really down, seems most people think I am sadly mistaken, theologically speaking. They like me personally, but my theology they can't stand. I prayed about this, because I don't want to work against God, not at all. That night I heard a Bible text, I heard it clearly, Matthew 25:35, it was the middle of the night, I didn't know what to make of it. In the morning I got up a little early and went into my study and looked it up, WOW! God is great.

[Guest]

You heard it out loud?

[Guest]

It's late here on the east coast.

[Lutz13]

That's an interesting question. People have said the same thing about the Old Testament, of course. In fact, many say the same thing about the Gospels.

Let's admit the fact that there are many different, and even contradictory, interpretations of the teachings of Jesus, as well as of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and Zechariah, to say nothing of Moses.

Remember that it required Jesus Himself to explain the Old Testament before people could truly understand it. Luke 24: 27, 45

It begs the question, why did God have the Bible written as He did? After all, He could have had it written as plainly as the newspaper, making the prose and poetry almost transparent and eliminating all possibility of misunderstanding. Why, then, did God choose to have it written with the complexity that it contains, so that it is possible for people to misunderstand it? For instance, why were the prophecies written in symbols and not straightforwardly?

Is it possible that God had it written purposely so that those who want to doubt and reject truth will have a place to hang their doubt on?

Is that related to the question why Jesus preached in parables?

I'm going to swallow my pride and come forward and say that God taught me a very valuable lesson concerning the above. I would often twist things to my own biased opinion especially concerning the old testament. I prayed and prayed for God to teach me the truth and the whole time He was trying. I wasn't paying attention though because of my preconceived ideas. He stepped back and let me keep going until I lost all faith in scripture for a short time because I had nothing left. If I couldn't believe it for what it was...Then what did I have? Nothing...If I have to pick and choose what to believe, why believe in His word at all?

I trust that God is big enough to ensure that the bible would remain true as a whole.

[Guest]

I trust that God is big enough to ensure that the bible would remain true as a whole.

I believe that too.

[Ron Amnsn]

Ron,

Is God a God of order or a God of confusion?

[Dr. Rich]

Ron wrote: "Eve heard God's word directly from God himself" Ron, isn't this an assumption? Didn't God give the instructions to Adam?

Ok, this is a minor thing. But what IF I were to tell you that God spoke to me in a dream or vision and told me that Paul was a false apostle, then would you believe me, or Paul? It would be his word against mine-right?

[Guest]

DR, based on other things I've seen you say on here, I would still believe Paul.

[John317]

I trust that God is big enough to ensure that the bible would remain true as a whole.

Yes, I agree. For Him not to have done so would be like giving Adam and Eve mixed messages about the tree, and telling them it was their responsibility to study and find out what the "true" instructions were. I don't recall when God ever worked that way.

[Dr. Rich]

Good morning RH, I hope you had a good rest!

I have something important to state here and it may clear up much of the confusion I see posted here. The message I have been giving here is not for everyone, it is only for the end time and for those who will be among the 144k. Therefore, what you read next might clear some of this up.

A few years ago I did have a dream-but then I have many dreams, but not like this one. I actually had a vision once too, but it had to be from the evil side because as soon as I shouted, "in the name of Jesus Christ, Satan, get out of here" it vanished.

My question(s) were the same as here on this thread--what is it about faith and grace that makes them important? Here is what came to me:

We all need faith at first since we are born in darkness. Faith leads to a point of educational learning about salvation.

Each of us is on a path of life. To the right is truth, which is singular and absolute. And to the left are many lies. The path to the left gets wider and to the right it gets narrower.

Then, at some point on this path of life, a choice has to be made. When a person chooses to accept Jesus' testimony as truth, then they repent and show this publicly by baptism. At this point they are saved by justification and grace even though they do not have the full truth yet from the Holy Spirit and have not been born again by the Holy Spirit.

They then move to the right by seeking truth (light) by study and investigation with the aid of the Holy Spirit. While doing this, if they get killed, they would be saved by their trust in God (yes, you could call this faith) even though they have not received all of the truth through study. This is being saved by the grace of God because of their faith.

However, if they turn around and start to follow after lies, then their faith and grace would no longer save them because of their choice, just as Adam made an unwise choice.

But if they keep seeking truth, the more truth they find will cause them to move to the right. The further the movement to the right will cause those around you to think you are nuts because you have found things that they just can’t understand. It might get lonely at this point and it isn’t much fun when others are making jokes and laughing at you.

So, the majority comes to a point on this path where they just want to stop. They have made the choice to stop because they are among people who also have made a choice to stop who they think all they need is their faith and that grace is going to save them. IN fact, they refuse to listen to anyone or to keep seeking truth because they do not want to be made fun of. They think they are in need of nothing. They falsely believe they have a personal relationship with Jesus and that His blood has washed away all of their sins.

Problem is, they have stopped in the middle of this path and have accepted lies mixed with truth, all the while thinking and through faith believe that they have reached the point where they can’t receive any more truth. They say that the prophecies in

Daniel and Revelation don’t matter because no one can understand them anyway. They just don’t want to be fed any more truth and have become happy and drunk and have become spiritually dead.

To their surprise, Jesus comes and they do not see Him come. They have to be woken up by those who have reached the far right on their path of life. At this point they will have to make another choice. They can choose to listen to those who woke them up, or chose to listen to the teachers and preachers who caused them to fall asleep in the first place.

Now, that was the dream and it naturally left me wide-awake—at 3:33 in the morning! Just remember, this is not for the nations of the world. It was directed to our SDA church and those who are attached, either as a member or by their belief. Enjoy!

[Ron Amnsn]

Ron wrote: "Eve heard God's word directly from God himself" Ron, isn't this an assumption? Didn't God give the instructions to Adam?

[Musicman1228]

Ron said, "Even so, we would need two or three witnesses before condemning Paul".

If having two witnesses is important to you in condemning Paul(rightly so) what about having two witnesses in confirming Paul? Who were the two witnesses that were with Paul on the road to Damascus that testified to his seeing Christ and hearing His voice?

[Zeta]

Does it matter who received it first? The Issue is that Eve disobeyed and committed her first sin. The sin wasn't eating the apple but, disregarding GOD'S INSTRUCTIONS.

[Ron Amnsn]

If having two witnesses is important to you in condemning Paul(rightly so) what about having two witnesses in confirming Paul? Who were the two witnesses that were with Paul on the road to Damascus that testified to his seeing Christ and hearing His voice?

The Law of Moses doesn't require two or three witnesses to confirm a person's validity. It requires witnesses when accusing and condemning a person.

So far, you haven't presented any reason for us to even start to suspect that Paul's testimony was not true.

As a youth, I never imagined that I would someday be defending Paul. I had developed a personal dislike for this man who seemed boastful. Later, after living in another culture for some time, I realized that what is considered boastful is determined by cultural norms, and that Paul lived in a different culture than the one in which I had grown up. There was no point in judging Paul by American cultural norms.

Amongst Messianic believers it is fairly common that people who have come to value God's Old Testament instructions will take a dislike to Paul (because they still believe what the lawless theologians have taught in the churches regarding Paul's writings). These folks seek to discredit Paul, and often find convincing-sounding ammunition in the writings of the Jewish anti-missionaries (Jewish folks who oppose the Christianizing of Jews).

As a result of my discussions with those who oppose Paul I have compiled an informal list of fallacies that come up repeatedly in the dialog. So far, everything that has been said against Paul on this forum rests firmly on one of the common fallacies. I can send you the list of fallacies if you're interested in knowing why folks don't accept your accusations against Paul.

[Dr. Rich]

Ya Ron, please send me the list.

Did God say it was His plan for Israel to become wicked so that Gentiles could be saved? No

Did God ever say that the Ten Commandments is not important for anyone? No

Dod God ever say we are saved by His grace? No

Did God ever say that righteousness was by faith? No

Did God say eating food offered to idols was ok? No

Did God say salvation comes through the gentiles? No

Did God say there were two ways for salvation? No

[Musicman1228]

I do find it interesting, Ron, that you choose to defend a man who is without a doubt a misogynist. For me a big reason that I distrust Paul is because Paul chose to treat women with hostility and disrespect shows me that he is outside of the will of God. And don't give me any of the "he was a product of his culture" stuff. Jesus was a product of His culture and yet He treated women with respect, just as He did everyone that demonstrated respect for Him.

[Jeannieb43]

Are you calling Paul the apostle a misogynist??!

I can't find anything in Scripture to bear out that opprobrium. If you think his saying "Be like me, unmarried" means he hated women, then I seriously disagree. I believe he perhaps might have felt having a family would impede his [traveling] ministry. We just don't know. At any rate, the Bible is silent on Why. So your strange accusation just does not ring true.

...Or maybe I'm wrong on which Paul you were referring to.

[John317]

Dod God ever say we are saved by His grace? No

Did God give Adam and Eve the promise of a Savior because of their works or because of His grace and love?

Did God save the Hebrews out of Egyptian slavery because of their worthiness or because of his grace?

Did God give His one and only Son because of your worthiness or because of His grace?

Quote:

Did God ever say that righteousness was by faith? No

Righteousness by faith (trust) in God is taught all through the Bible. Look at Ge. 3: 15; 15: 6; Ps. 32: 1. 2; Ps. 51; Isaiah. 53; Jeremiah 31: 33, 34; Hosea; Job; Hab. 2: 4; Matt. 1: 22; 3: 15; John 1: 12, 13; 3: 14, 15; 5: 24; 6: 29, 39, 40; 1 John 1: 9; 2: 1-2; 4: 9, 10; 5: 4, 5, 11-13; Rev. 3: 18; 7: 14; etc.

[Guest]

Excellent study John. Faith as found in the Old Testament.

"Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith. Hab 2:4

[phkrause]

Good post Ron. Paul was most definitely an apostle of Jesus and on fire for him to the Jews and the Gentiles.

pk

[Ron Amnsn]

I do find it interesting, Ron, that you choose to defend a man who is without a doubt a misogynist. For me a big reason that I distrust Paul is because Paul chose to treat women with hostility and disrespect shows me that he is outside of the will of God. And don't give me any of the "he was a product of his culture" stuff. Jesus was a product of His culture and yet He treated women with respect, just as He did everyone that demonstrated respect for Him.

If Paul was a misogynist, why is it that the regions of the world most influenced by Paul's kind of Christianity are the regions where women now have the right to champion women's rights?

How is what Paul said about women different than what other Jewish teachers were saying at the time? How is it different than Roman and Greek teachers were teaching at the time?

How is what Paul said about women different than what the Old Testament said about women?

[Dr. Rich]

I would agree about faith for those not in the last generation living on this earth--including Adam and Eve. I have no problem with that because they have not and could not have heard the full truth that will presented by the 144 thousand when they are sealed.

Perhaps this is the real misunderstanding between us. I am talking about what will happen to the last generation living on this earth that will have heard the truth given by the witnesses and the 144k. At this time their faith and grace will not be enough to save them, because just like the tree--they will have to make a choice to receive the mark of the beast or the seal of God. Now, does this make sense?

This means I could care less if anyone is a SDA member or not. But when the SDA church is woken up when Jesus comes like a thief, please don't be surprised, as many will, that think Jesus will only come at the end of the 7th trumpet in the clouds.

You do not have to believe me--time will prove what is the truth.

[Guest]

So now you're saying there will be a 2nd and a 3rd coming?

[Dr. Rich]

Come on--you know this--don't you? If not, I will send you the info. Let me know. For starters, you might want to read the condition of the world at the time of the coming in the clouds. (Rev. 9) Then you can answer how there could be a chance to change at this time as found in Matthew 25?

You see, when Jesus comes in the clouds, one third of the population will have been killed. But the important thing, is that there will be no more time for making a choice. People will have either taken the Mark of the Beast or have already been sealed by God.

RH, this is so easy to see that I am dumbfounded why others have not discovered their error yet. If you have problems with this, give em to me.