"Released from the Law"

[Guest]

Because they thought they were. He was making a broader point. It was more of a put down for them.

[wayfinder]

Rob,

He did not say "they" were righteous, He said He had not come to call the righteous. Where in this text does He call the Pharisees righteous? Jesus statement, it is not the healthy who need a doctor... Jesus was eating with tax collecters and sinners, because no one was paying any attention to them, how could they hear the words of righteousness if He did not tell them. The Pharisees had long since stopped up their ears to what The Son of God was saying.

[Guest]

excactly

[Robert]

Because they thought they were. He was making a broader point. It was more of a put down for them.

Then the same applies to Job....

[Guest]

No it dosn't. Two totally different situations. And like wayfinder said, he didn't really call them righteous. God called Job righteous by name more than once.

[Robert]

Rob, He did not say "they" were righteous, He said He had not come to call the righteous. Where in this text does He call the Pharisees righteous?

Mark 2:16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they [the Pharisees] asked his [Christ's] disciples: "Why does he [Christ] eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" 17 On hearing this [the question asked by the Pharisees], Jesus said to them [the Pharisees], "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

The Pharisees ask the disciples why Christ ate with sinners? Jesus overheard the Pharisees' question and responded to them, "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Now, who was Jesus eating with? "Sinners and tax collectors"

Who did Jesus refer to as "the righteous"? The Pharisees....

If you can't see that I doubt if you can read either....

Rob

[Robert]

No it dosn't. Two totally different situations. And like wayfinder said, he didn't really call them righteous. God called Job righteous by name more than once.

Thou shall not bear false witness.

[wayfinder]

Rob,

Jesus was answering the question asked by the Pharisees. The implication is quite obvious, "why is Jesus eating with tax collecters and sinners (instead of those who are righteous). The Pharisees would never eat with such people, they wouldn't even give them the time of day (so to speak). Jesus was not socializing, He was teaching and sharing with those who were hungry for the words of salvation.

[Guest]

The arguement was between God and Satan. It wasn't about Job per se,

He was just the battle ground. Just like we are the battleground in the great controversy.

[Robert]

Rob, Jesus was answering the question asked by the Pharisees.

And He referred to the Pharisees as "the righteous"....

[Robert]

The arguement was between God and Satan. It wasn't about Job per se...

...the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless...."

Sounds like it's about Job to me....

[Robert]

"So do you think Job does all that out of the sheer goodness of his heart? Why, no one ever had it so good! You pamper him like a pet, make sure nothing bad ever happens to him or his family or his possessions, bless everything he does - he can't lose!" [MSG]

In other words Job is hanging with God because of all the goodies he gets: Riches, protection, etc.

So outwardly Job looks obedient, but inwardly all that he does is for self-centered reasons. Is that law keeping? Well, what does the Bible say?

The Bible says, "Love (agape) is the fulfillment of the law". You can't keep the law through the love of self. The only way to fulfill the law is through agape love. That's because "agape is not self-seeking" (1 Cor 13:5 NIV). Let's look at this in detail:

"If I give all I possess to the poor, but have not love [agape], it [the act] is meaningless." [1 Cor 13:3]

Does EGW agree (this is for doubting SDA)?

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ [His agape love] shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

Did you get that? A man can do seemingly good things outwardly, but if motivationally he is doing for self-centered reasons, well, then that's not agape. And since only agape fulfills the law then Job wasn't a perfect man after all.

They why does God say Job is perfect? Could it be God is merely presenting Job's view of himself before Satan? Yes! That's why when a 4th man steps in, Elihu, he points out the issue:

So these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God. [in other words instead of God justifying Job, Job was justifying himself before God and His law] 3 He was also angry with the three friends, because they had found no way to refute Job, and yet had condemned him.

That's Job's problem. He thinks he is righteous, but in reality he is self-centered and therefore isn't fulfilling the law after all. Again, only "agape (a selfless love) fulfills the law". The fact he is justifying himself before God proves beyond a doubt that this man is self-righteous.

Elihu has pin-pointed Job's problem. So God is presenting Job's view of himself. Why? Because that's what Job is presenting before God. He is justifying himself before God.

Now Job ends up repenting and so do Job's 3 friends. They were accusing him of some secret sin. They were also misrepresenting God's character. That's why at the end of the book of Job you see Job and his 3 friends repenting, but not Elihu! Why? He spoke the truth!!!!

[Guest]

He knew Job could pass the test, but it was between God and Satan really. Satan's position is that God's law is unjust and can't be kept. So God said, well have you seen this one here.

[Robert]

Satan's position is that God's law is unjust and can't be kept.

Why do you bear false witness (lie)? Where does it say this BS? I can't find this in the book of Job?

[Guest]

Don't call me a liar. If I'm wrong on something it dosn't mean I'm lying.

[Robert]

Don't call me a liar. If I'm wrong on something it dosn't mean I'm lying.

Okay, I stand corrected....It means you don't know...

[Robert]

"So these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God. [in other words instead of God justifying Job, Job was justifying himself before God and His law] 3 He was also angry with the three friends, because they had found no way to refute Job, and yet had condemned him.

Job's three so-called friends drove Job crazy with accusing him of some sin, but in the end they found no way to refute him, yet they condemned him. Elihu didn't like this....

On the other hand, Elihu, places his finger squarely on the problem: " for justifying himself rather than God"....Some versions read, "for justifying himself instead of God"....

[Guest]

Thank you for cleaning that up.

[skyblue888]

The patience of the Lord never ceases to amaze me. It would seem that those who do not believe in the true message of righteousness by faith think they have every right to be unkind, intolerant, rude, and mean with those who disagree with them. But if one who believes in righteousness--obedience--through faith in the merits of Christ happens to falter, these same self-righteous individuals will be the first ones to make sure everyone knows about it. In that they are emulating their master, the accuser of the brethren.

Will they ever wake up before it is too late?

sky

[Woody]

One intolerance does not deserve another.

[John317]

And to add to that John, what I see at the very end is that, after the fact, God restores to Job all that was taken from him. Not because he did what he did for any gain but because he loved God with all his heart even though all along he thought that God was punishing him for being a bad person. To me its like when Jesus comes to get us, not because we did anything to deserve being with him but because we love him and he covered us with his perfect live.

pk

I completely agree with you. I like how you put that and the association you make between Job's reward and the reward of the righteous when Jesus comes. No one will be thinking they deserve it any more than Job thought he deserved God's restoration.

[skyblue888]

Thank you for cleaning that up.

Richard, there are times when it is appropriate for the servant of God to justify (defend himself) against opponents,,, this was one of those times with Job but did u notice that he did not try to justify himself when God addressed him?

Mrs. White makes that very plain in Testimonies, Vol.3, p.509.

sky

[Guest]

That's right

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

The arguement was between God and Satan. It wasn't about Job per se...

...the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless...."

The Hebrew word that "blameless" or "perfect" are translated from is Strongs#8535, Tam, with the "a" pronounced long. It never means sinless. "It means complete, whole, upright (always in a moral sense, Job 1: 1; 8: 20; 9: 20-22).... simple, pious, innocent, sincere, undefiled, having integrity (Ps, 37: 37)." (See p. 2381 of The Complete Word Study of the Old Testament)

[Just*]

Problem Gal.-The justification: the cross of Christ + our obedience

Problem Job- The justification: the cross of Christ +the works of Christ in us

The justification is only...???