"Released from the Law"

[phkrause]

Your right Robert we are all dead under the law, isn't that why Jesus came to Die for us under that law? But if we accepted him as our Lord and saviour and tell others about him, he will tell his father about us and his death will take our place and it will be as if we never sinned? Is this not grace? Or am I wrong?

pk

[Robert]

Slavery was not an issue during Jesus's time? Why did he tell them to obey their masters?

Roman practiced slavery....It was wrong...it was immoral....Since Roman was fully behind the practice, Paul's advice to Christians was don't start a fight rather love those who do you wrong....As Christ said, "love your enemies"....If you rebelled and ran away you would be caught and crucified....

[Musicman1228]

All forms of unwilling slavery are evil; forced indenture, bondage against the will, forced submissiveness of a wife to her husband, forced conversion to a foreign idea or dogma, sex for compensation of any kind (this includes flowers and chocolates, and a nice dinner out).

God gave us free will and meant it; we ALWAYS have the right to choose. We can choose life or death, blessing or curse. This is why God could never force someone to do something for Him against their opposed will. God cannot and does not force evil agents into accomplishing His good purposes, because this would be using overwhelming and unstoppable force against a weaker diametrically opposed evil will. If He did this it would soon become evident that to directly oppose the will of God would be a death sentence, and right now. Who could stand against that kind of aggression.

That being said, there is a type of 'slavery' that God is seeking with all His heart, and that is the 'slavery' of the Bondservant. A Bondservant is a person that recognizes that without Jesus Christ paying his penalty for disobedience (from Adam forward) he would have to pay that penalty himself, and that penalty is eternal death. So that person places himself willingly into bondservitude, which says to Jesus Christ "Because you paid my penalty I owe you my life, and I will serve you willingly as a slave until such time as you release me from my commitment."

I am a Bondservant of Jesus Christ, my King. I am not His brother, or buddy, or friend (yet). I have given Him my permission to ask of me anything, and I will do whatever He says without question, without asking why, with no thought to my own comfort or pleasure, even unto my death.

I am under the penalty of death because of the Law, and I thank God everyday for that Law, for without it I would have no hope of ever having my penalty paid without me paying it. Without the Law Jesus would not be able to pay my penalty for me, which grants me the possibility of attaining to eternal life.

Release me from the Law, no sir not me. I am perfectly happy to wait for my Master to tell me when He is ready to do that. And if He should decide to never release me that is OK with me, too. For that would mean that I will spend eternity serving the King that I love, which means that I would be near Him forever, and that would be my greatest joy above all other joys.

I have no idea why people say that they want to be released from doing that forever.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Yes. Jesus was PC. He was wise. He knew that certain topics would not be received well and would only be misunderstood. It was not the rigtht time. This is why He didn't make an issue of slavery and women. The culture and politics did not make it wise.

There is a distinct difference between pandering to a minorities opinions, than showing wisdom.

The way you express it implies Jesus had weakness...

Mark

Like I said ... He was wise.

[skyblue888]

musicman, we do not have to wait for Christ to be our brother or our friend. He is all that to us now if with the simple faith of a little child we choose to rest in His merits alone, accepting His rigtheousness, and believing in His mercy. He is now our lover, our husband, our Lord and our God. Those who make it their life business to look to Him and trust in His merits for their acceptance with God, for pardon and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, are sitting with Him right now in heavenly places at the right hand of the Majesty on High. Eph.2:6.

The only way it can be said that the true children of God are "slaves" to righteousness is that by consenting, Christ will so indentify Himself with their thoughts and aims, so blend their hearts and minds into coformity to His will, that when obeying Him they shall be but carrying out their own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know Christ as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. See Desire of Ages,668.

sky

[Musicman1228]

musicman, we do not have to wait for Christ to be our brother or our friend. He is all that to us now if with the simple faith of a little child we choose to rest in His merits alone, accepting His rigtheousness, and believing in His mercy. He is now our lover, our husband, our Lord and our God. Those who make it their life business to look to Him and trust in His merits for their acceptance with God, for pardon and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, are sitting with Him right now in heavenly places at the right hand of the Majesty on High. Eph.2:6.

The only way it can be said that the true children of God are "slaves" to righteousness is that by consenting, Christ will so indentify Himself with their thoughts and aims, so blend their hearts and minds into coformity to His will, that when obeying Him they shall be but carrying out their own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know Christ as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. See Desire of Ages,668.

sky

skyblue888,

If, as you say Jesus is right now our lover, husband, and our friend please tell me when the 7 Trumpet sounded. It is only at the 7th Trumpet when the kingdom of this world becomes the Kingdom of Our Lord and of His Christ. If all is as you say and Christ has married His bride already then what of the marriage feast in Matt. 25, and the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven as a bride adorned for her husband? I guess I must have missed something, somewhere to have missed those events.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

musicman, we do not have to wait for Christ to be our brother or our friend. He is all that to us now if with the simple faith of a little child we choose to rest in His merits alone, accepting His rigtheousness, and believing in His mercy. He is now our lover, our husband, our Lord and our God. Those who make it their life business to look to Him and trust in His merits for their acceptance with God, for pardon and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, are sitting with Him right now in heavenly places at the right hand of the Majesty on High. Eph.2:6.

The only way it can be said that the true children of God are "slaves" to righteousness is that by consenting, Christ will so indentify Himself with their thoughts and aims, so blend their hearts and minds into coformity to His will, that when obeying Him they shall be but carrying out their own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know Christ as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. See Desire of Ages,668.

sky

skyblue888,

If, as you say Jesus is right now our lover, husband, and our friend please tell me when the 7 Trumpet sounded. It is only at the 7th Trumpet when the kingdom of this world becomes the Kingdom of Our Lord and of His Christ. If all is as you say and Christ has married His bride already then what of the marriage feast in Matt. 25, and the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven as a bride adorned for her husband? I guess I must have missed something, somewhere to have missed those events.

Before Christ estalishes His Kingdom of glory we must have His kingdom of grace established within us. "The Kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20. "The kingdom of God is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Rom.14:21.

There are two marriages. We must first be married to Christ before we may be guests at the marriage supper of the Lamb. The first marriage takes place here on earth. "For your Maker is your husband. The Lord of hosts is His name." Isaiah 54:5. The other marriage takes place in Heaven and the New Jerusalem is the bride and the saints will be the guests.

sky

[Robert]

I am a Bondservant of Jesus Christ, my King. I am not His brother, or buddy, or friend (yet). I have given Him my permission to ask of me anything, and I will do whatever He says without question, without asking why, with no thought to my own comfort or pleasure, even unto my death.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

I am a Bondservant of Jesus Christ, my King. I am not His brother, or buddy, or friend (yet). I have given Him my permission to ask of me anything, and I will do whatever He says without question, without asking why, with no thought to my own comfort or pleasure, even unto my death.

You sound like Job....I hear the flesh, not a humble person....I hear Peter when he said, "i will never forsake you"....You need to have less confidence in yourself. Just put your faith in Christ and then you can have assurance....

Quote:

Release me from the Law, no sir not me. I am perfectly happy to wait for my Master to tell me when He is ready to do that.

The rantings of a true self-righteous hypocrite....If you are under law you are under the death sentence, for, as Paul states, "cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law."

Are you ready for this Robert?

...Amen

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

You sound like Job....I hear the flesh, not a humble person....I hear Peter when he said, "i will never forsake you"....You need to have less confidence in yourself. Just put your faith in Christ and then you can have assurance....

Quote:

Release me from the Law, no sir not me. I am perfectly happy to wait for my Master to tell me when He is ready to do that.

The rantings of a true self-righteous hypocrite....If you are under law you are under the death sentence, for, as Paul states, "cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law."[/quote']

Are you ready for this Robert?

...Amen

TU

[LifeHiscost]

Jesus Christ, my King. I am not His brother, or buddy, or friend.

Musicman1228, is it because you don't wish to be what Jesus has offered you, or you just don't feel comfortable in such an august Presence?

"Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”

But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers!"Matthew 12:47-49 NKJV

"No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you."John 15:15 NASB

"Little children, I shall be with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come,’ so now I say to you." John 13:33 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Release me from the Law, no sir not me. I am perfectly happy to wait for my Master to tell me when He is ready to do that.

The rantings of a true self-righteous hypocrite....If you are under law you are under the death sentence, for, as Paul states, "cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law."

Robert, no one on this forum has ever expressed themselves in so highly a judgmental attitude as you in this post, that I am aware of. Perhaps, like Mary, you should go back and sit at the feet of Jesus until you are prepared to meet those who Jesus came to save.

"But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”" Matthew 9:13 NKJV

"...how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye."Luke 6:42 NASB

"Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" Matt 7:1-3 KJV

Blessings in the Word, Robert!

[Musicman1228]

Robert and Richard,

Did I make any statement saying that you must use the same approach to our King as do I? Have I in any way declared to you that if you don't believe in Jesus Christ the same way that I do that you would be lost? Have I ever made any statement to you that showed that I harbored any resentment or animosity toward your particular understanding of Scripture and prophecy?

Had I done those things you would have the right to question my motives and criticize my behavior. As I have done none of those things it is incumbent upon me now to call you on your error. You have no right under God to chastise me for merely revealing to you how I view my own personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and my own understanding of how salvation is accomplished. My salvation is my own responsibility and is none of your business. I have never voiced my opinion as to your understanding or lack thereof concerning your theology and your view of God.

Either the both of you are correct in your understanding of salvation, justice and the Kingdom of Heaven or you are wrong. The same applies to me, either I am right or I am wrong. Both sides could be wrong, but both sides cannot be right. Because of this all of us are betting our lives on our understanding of God through Scripture, and other sources, and soon we will find out who is right and who is wrong. We will live or die eternally based on our choices.

Yet even if I am wrong and you are right does not give you the authority to judge my motives and my understanding such that you would say the things that you said. It is not up to you to try to convince me that I am in error (if such I be), that is the job of the Holy Spirit. By making the judgment that you did about me you assumed that you have the authority over me that only the Spirit of God has in directing my life toward salvation. You are not the Holy Spirit. Be very careful about placing yourself in the place of God in making judgments on others, and in trying to redirect others toward your idea of salvation. Frankly, I don't have the courage to put myself in the place of God as you have done by your statements, and assume authority that does not by right belong to me. Not that you need it but you have my permission to believe anything you want about anyone you want. It truly does not matter to me as I do not take the fact that you disagree with me personally. I will respect your choices and decisions. Please have the courtesy to do the same for me.

[Guest]

Oh please MM, Robert talks like that to everybody he thinks is wrong. And nobody said anything about your motives, not even Robert. We have to put up with Dr. Rich telling us what dimwits we are, blind, ignorant, uninformed, pretty much anything that pops into his head, and I don't see you repremanding him. Ever. So please stop your whining and give me a break.

[LifeHiscost]

Oh please MM, Robert talks like that to everybody he thinks is wrong. And nobody said anything about your motives, not even Robert. We have to put up with Dr. Rich telling us what dimwits we are, blind, ignorant, uninformed, pretty much anything that pops into his head, and I don't see you repremanding him. Ever. So please stop your whining and give me a break.

No doubt we all succumb to our weaker side now and then, if not more often. However I find it more Christlike and useful to the building up of the body of Christ, to sit in judgment

upon one's self rather than trying to denigrate each other as a spectacle to others who might have taken steps toward Jesus, were it not for the testimony so marred by another spirit.

We reveal far more about our difference between ourselves and Jesus when we make effort to denigrate others, than when we find fault with ourselves.

As Ghandhi said and I paraphrase according to my memory,

"I would have become a follower of Christ if I had ever met one". Maybe someone out there can improve on what I remember.

Regards!

[Ron Amnsn]

IF you believe that the writer of 1st Tim. was inspired by God, then why is it that you allow women to speak in church?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

IF you believe that the writer of 1st Tim. was inspired by God, then why is it that you allow women to speak in church?

I believe that Paul was led by God, but I am not a follower of Paul, nor do I believe that Paul's writings carry the same weight as the words of Jesus or the Old Testament Law and prophets. God called Paul to be an apostle in his time to preach the gospel and provide leadership to the congregations where he labored. Because of his calling, Paul had authority within the area of responsibility God gave to him. But I don't believe that God gave Paul authority over all other congregations of believers in all subsequent time periods.

Congregational leaders would be wise to consider Paul's example of leadership and his counsel. But Paul is now dead. He can not be responsible for leadership in today's congregations. Today's leaders need to lead today's congregations.

The reason I allow women to talk in "church" is because I don't attend "church". We worship at home and I do not believe Paul's writings should be treated as edicts to be obeyed by all followers of Jesus.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

You people are a bunch of wimps! You either obey the instructions given in 1st Tim. or not--period!

Where is a Scripture passage to support the notion that all followers of Jesus are required to "obey" the counsel that Paul wrote to a young man named Timothy almost 2000 years ago for Timothy to implement in the congregations where Timothy had responsibility? It seems perhaps that you have accepted the Roman church's model of over-inflated church authority. I prefer to follow the Berean model of authority, where Paul's teachings were tested by Old Testament Scripture. I don't imagine that the Bereans ever put Paul's utterances or writings above Old Testament Scripture, or that they relinquished to Paul all authority for what happened in their congregation. God calls apostles, but He also calls elders and teachers and other people to provide on-going long-term leadership within specific congregations.

It is possible that we are wimps. But it is also possible that we are using our God-given wisdom to discern that Paul's authority over ancient congregations has legitimate limits. Today's leaders do not derive their authority from Paul as if Paul was some kind of pope.

But it is also possible that we are using our God-given wisdom to discern that Paul's authority over ancient congregations has legitimate limits

Do you have a scriptural basis for this belief?

Mark

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

I believe that Paul was led by God, but I am not a follower of Paul, nor do I believe that Paul's writings carry the same weight as the words of Jesus or the Old Testament Law and prophets. God called Paul to be an apostle in his time to preach the gospel and provide leadership to the congregations where he labored. Because of his calling, Paul had authority within the area of responsibility God gave to him. But I don't believe that God gave Paul authority over all other congregations of believers in all subsequent time periods.

Congregational leaders would be wise to consider Paul's example of leadership and his counsel. But Paul is now dead. He can not be responsible for leadership in today's congregations. Today's leaders need to lead today's congregations.

The reason I allow women to talk in "church" is because I don't attend "church". We worship at home and I do not believe Paul's writings should be treated as edicts to be obeyed by all followers of Jesus.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

You people are a bunch of wimps! You either obey the instructions given in 1st Tim. or not--period!

Where is a Scripture passage to support the notion that all followers of Jesus are required to "obey" the counsel that Paul wrote to a young man named Timothy almost 2000 years ago for Timothy to implement in the congregations where Timothy had responsibility? It seems perhaps that you have accepted the Roman church's model of over-inflated church authority. I prefer to follow the Berean model of authority, where Paul's teachings were tested by Old Testament Scripture. I don't imagine that the Bereans ever put Paul's utterances or writings above Old Testament Scripture, or that they relinquished to Paul all authority for what happened in their congregation. God calls apostles, but He also calls elders and teachers and other people to provide on-going long-term leadership within specific congregations.

It is possible that we are wimps. But it is also possible that we are using our God-given wisdom to discern that Paul's authority over ancient congregations has legitimate limits. Today's leaders do not derive their authority from Paul as if Paul was some kind of pope.

[/quote']

But it is also possible that we are using our God-given wisdom to discern that Paul's authority over ancient congregations has legitimate limits

Do you have a scriptural basis for this belief?

Mark

I'd like to see that scriptural evidence myself.

thanks

sky

[Musicman1228]

Richard, If Robert talks like that to everyone on the forum then he is setting a shining example for the rest of us to follow. (That is irony, in case you missed it.) Gerry has it right from my view point in that following the example of Jesus Christ should be our goal, not trying to make others look small. Doing that only makes the one who attempts it look more successful in becoming small than the one he called small in the first place.

As to Dr. Rich, I have mentioned my feelings about this to him a number of times in PM's, but as with Robert or you I cannot and will not force him into my method of doing things. That would be an abuse of his (and your) free will, and that I will not do. That does not mean that I approve of the method.

I am an adult and have been given (and taken) much higher quality vitriol than either Robert or you have flung my way. Compared to some of the comments I have received from other people you both are still amatures (thank God).

Good luck converting people to your point of view using this particular method of persuation.

[Guest]

Musicman, The only thing I ever said in any of this was "amen". I didn't feel I should have to be repremanded by you for saying amen. Robert is on a 90 day time out for what he said. At least I assume that's the reason. He has called me worse things than that more than once.

The thing I said amen to was this: "....I hear the flesh, not a humble person"

As far as converting people to a particular point of view goes, That is what you are trying to do, not me. And judging from your viewpoints, you have your work cut out for you.

Most Adventists already believe what I believe.

[Musicman1228]

Richard,

Just because you believe the way in which 'most' Adventists believe does not make your belief correct, or my beliefs false. Time and evidence will tell. My only criticism in this is that some (not many, praise God) take their beliefs so personally that when someone disagrees with them on Scriptural grounds they become offended and attack the messenger not the message.

I have no problem with you challenging me on any of my current understanding. I appreciate the challenge because WHAT I believe is still formative in nature; I still have a LOT to learn. But just as with you WHO I believe in is set in marble or stone. I have never, and will never question your loyalty to Jesus Christ, even if I question at times your method or your understanding.

EGW said that we have much to learn and many, many things to unlearn. I have spent a good deal of time unlearning some things that I have believed to be true but turned out to be false. No one that I know likes going through this process but in the end it will be worth it.

[Guest]

I know she said that. But the things we will have to unlearn are not the pillars or the foundation of our faith.

She also said this:

Not a pin is to be moved from the foundations of our faith. Truth is still truth. Those who become uncertain will drift into erroneous theories and will finally find themselves infidel in regard to the past evidence we have had of what is truth. The old waymarks must be preserved, that we lose not our bearings.--Letter 395, 1906,

[Woody]

Righteousness By Faith is one pillar that many do not understand and will be one issue that many will need to learn and unlearn many of their previous notions.

[Twilight]

Righteousness By Faith is one pillar that many do not understand and will be one issue that many will need to learn and unlearn many of their previous notions.

Indeed.

But I will take what the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy has to say on that and other inspired counsel.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Righteousness By Faith is one pillar that many do not understand and will be one issue that many will need to learn and unlearn many of their previous notions.

Indeed.

But I will take what the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy has to say on that and other inspired counsel.

This is an interesting statement. Just a few hours ago ... I asked my pastor a question about tithe etc. The pastor quickly quoted a verse. I indicated that I didn't understand what some of the words meant. The pastor responded that the quote was clear.

This is a problem. The quote was not clear to me. Words mean something different to each person and we have to determine what the words meant to the author. For that .... we need the Holy Spirit.