"Released from the Law"

[Robert]

But to keep knocking someone for quoting from someone you don't care for is not right.

Because I know how legalistic Adventists think....EGW is the end all, be all, of truth....

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, this true, Jack Sequeira very often quotes Ellen White as an authority.

Wrong! He quotes her as she agrees with current light....He quotes her for SDA who need validation.

Do you mean that you think Jack is quoting Ellen White to prove that Ellen White is in line with his opinions?

And do you mean that you think he only uses her for the purpose of persuading SDAs that his opinions are true?

Quote:

JOHN317: I know that Jack considers her to have been a genuine, inspired prophet of God.

Quote:

ROBERT: You've talked to him and ask him this?

He's written it in his books. He sometimes uses the term "the Spirit of Prophecy" as a synonym for Ellen White's writings.

Jack Sequeira believes in the SDA Fundamental Beliefs #18 (formerly #17) and he accepts Ellen White as a prophet. Jack wrote, "The prophetic gift is one of the important gifts which was bestowed upon Ellen G. White and played a very major part in the development of this denomination."

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, this true, Jack Sequeira very often quotes Ellen White as an authority.

Wrong! He quotes her as she agrees with current light....He quotes her for SDA who need validation.

Quote:

I know that Jack considers her to have been a genuine, inspired prophet of God.

You've talked to him and ask him this?

Was she inspired? Yes.... Did she have all light? No! Did she have unintentional errors...i.e., did she grow in her understanding? Yes...

But you guys...well, you act as if every word she uttered is infallible and you are not to question her....That's a cult in the making!

I have never read Mrs. White making any such claim although she was inspired but you, Robert, an uninspired man, are claiming to be able to tell us what is inspired and what is not inspired since, according to you, some of her writings are inspired and some not. So it is left to you to tell us what is inspired and what is not?

"There are many who cannot distinguish between the work of God and that of man. I shall tell the truth as God gives it to me, and I say, If you continue to find fault, to have a spirit of variance, you will never know the truth." 1 S.M.412.

"I understood that some were anxious to know if Mrs. White still held the same views that she did years ago when they had heard her speak in the sanitarium grove, in the Tabernacle, and at the camp meetings held in the suburbs of Battle Creek. I assured them that the message she bears today is the same that she has borne during the sixty years of her public ministry. She has the same service to do for the Master that was laid upon her in her girlhood. She receives lessons from the same Instructor. The directions given her are, 'Make known to others what I have reealed to you. Write out the messages that I give you, that the people may have them.'

"I have written many books, and they have been given a wide circulation. Of myself I could not have brought out the truth in these books, but the Lord has given me the help of His Holy Spirit. These books, giving the instruction that the Lord has given me during the past sixty years, contain light from heaven, and will bear the test of investigation." 1 S.M.35.

The Lord said to her, "Be not afraid of man, for My shield shall protect you. It is not you who speaketh: it is the Lord that giveth the messages of warning and reproof. Give the light I shall give you. The messages for these last days shall be written in books, and shall stand immortalized, to testify against those who have once rejoiced in the light, but who have been led to give it up because of the seductive influences of evil." Idem, 32.

sky

[phkrause]

I think Gerry you make a very good point. It makes a whole lot of sense.

pk

[skyblue888]

I think Gerry you make a very good point. It makes a whole lot of sense.

pk

what did Gerry say?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Twice God said he was righteous and NOT SELF-righteous.

Okay, let's test this assumption....Go to Mark 2:16-17:

When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him [Jesus] eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Now look at the immediate context....Who is Jesus referring to as "the righteous"? The context reveals it was "the teachers of the law (the Pharisees)". clearly the Pharisees were "self-righteous", but Jesus calls them "righteous".

So then, if by "righteous" Jesus was referring to the Pharisees, you are then saying He did not come to heal the Pharisees or call them to repentance?

"Pure speculation" nonsense! If Christ were referring to the Pharisees as the "righteous", why then would He tell Nicodemus, "you must be born again?"

Your favorite author said, "All have sinned....." Or are you now saying Jesus didn't know that since you say He is calling the Pharisees "righteous" and need not be "called" to repentance?

[Woody]

Quote:

"The Testimonies of Sister White should not be carried to the front. God's Word is the unerring standard. The Testimonies are not to take the place of the Word of God. . . . Let us prove all our positions from Scripture and substantiate every point they claim from the revealed Word of God" By Ellen White in Evangelism, p. 256.

[skyblue888]

Jesus simply meant that the Gospel was not for those who thought they were righteous, those who in their own eyes were rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing.

sky

[Gerr]

Or the unfallen angels who need neither healing nor repentance?

[skyblue888]

Quote:

"The Testimonies of Sister White should not be carried to the front. God's Word is the unerring standard. The Testimonies are not to take the place of the Word of God. . . . Let us prove all our positions from Scripture and substantiate every point they claim from the revealed Word of God" By Ellen White in Evangelism, p. 256.

Of course, there are many statements like these. She says not to carry them to the front. What does that mean? I would suggest she is talking about preaching from the pulpit. Then she would write: "The testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture. Many will read with eargerness the messages reproving wrong, that they may learn what they may do to be saved... Light will dawn upon the understanding, and the Spirit will make an impression on minds, as Bible truth is clearly and simply presented in the messages that since 1846 God has been sending His people. These messages are to find their place in hearts, and transformations will take place." Letter 73,1903; 1 S.M.42.

sky

[skyblue888]

Or the unfallen angels who need neither healing nor repentance?

"The gospel is to be preached to the poor. Not to the spiritually proud, those who claim to be rich and in need of nothing, is it revealed, but to those who are humble and contrite. One fountain only has been opened for sin, a fountain for the poor in spirit. The proud heart strives to earn his salvation but both our title to Heaven and our fitness for it are found in the righteousness of Christ." D.A.300.

"Faith is the condition upon which God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners. Not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited, but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin." F.W.100,101.

"Righteousness is obedience to the law. The law demands righteousness. This the sinner owes to the law; but he is incapable of rendering it. The only way in which he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ." F.W.101.

The merits of Christ are the fountain that has been opened for sin.

sky

[phkrause]

Skyblue here is what I was posting to from Gerry's post:

"So then, whenever God calls a man righteous in the Bible, we are really to understand then that God is saying they are "self-righteous?" And that when God through Ezekiel said, "Even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver but their own lives by their righteousness, declares the Lord GOD," Ez 14:14 ESV, He is saying that Daniel & Noah were merely self-righteous just like Job?

That when Luke said of Zechariah & Elizabeth, "And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord," Lk 1:6 ESV, he was saying they just thought they were righteous and that they were really just being "self-righteous?"

I'm guessing you missed this post by Gerry. He was commenting to Robert.

pk

[skyblue888]

sorry but I can't read it,,, can u change the colour? thanks

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The Pharisees' date=' according to Christ, were righteous....After close inspection you realize that they were "self-righteous" a term the NT didn't use in the days of Christ. The same is true of Job, but it's hard to break through to your mind seeing that's it's encased in traditionalism.

[/quote']

So then, whenever God calls a man righteous in the Bible, we are really to understand then that God is saying they are "self-righteous?"

It's up to you to read the context and study it out....When I read the Book of Job I find that he was indeed self-righteous. What did EGW say? The more we understand God's agape the more we see ourselves as sinners. Here's another one:

"Those who live nearest to Jesus discern most clearly the frailty and sinfulness of humanity, and their only hope is in the merit of a crucified and risen Saviour."

Now, let's look at Job:

Job 31:1 "I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl. 2 For what is man's lot from God above, his heritage from the Almighty on high? 3 Is it not ruin for the wicked, disaster for those who do wrong? 4 Does he not see my ways and count my every step? 5 "If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit-- 6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless-- 7 if my steps have turned from the path, if my heart has been led by my eyes, or if my hands have been defiled, 8 then may others eat what I have sown, and may my crops be uprooted.

9 "If my heart has been enticed by a woman, or if I have lurked at my neighbor's door, 10 then may my wife grind another man's grain, and may other men sleep with her. 11 For that would have been shameful, a sin to be judged. 12 It is a fire that burns to Destruction; it would have uprooted my harvest. 13 "If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants when they had a grievance against me, 14 what will I do when God confronts me? What will I answer when called to account? 15 Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?

16 "If I have denied the desires of the poor or let the eyes of the widow grow weary, 17 if I have kept my bread to myself, not sharing it with the fatherless-- 18 but from my youth I reared him as would a father, and from my birth I guided the widow-- 19 if I have seen anyone perishing for lack of clothing, or a needy man without a garment, 20 and his heart did not bless me for warming him with the fleece from my sheep, 21 if I have raised my hand against the fatherless, knowing that I had influence in court, 22 then let my arm fall from the shoulder, let it be broken off at the joint. 23 For I dreaded destruction from God, and for fear of his splendor I could not do such things.

24 "If I have put my trust in gold or said to pure gold, 'You are my security,' 25 if I have rejoiced over my great wealth, the fortune my hands had gained, 26 if I have regarded the sun in its radiance or the moon moving in splendor, 27 so that my heart was secretly enticed and my hand offered them a kiss of homage, 28 then these also would be sins to be judged, for I would have been unfaithful to God on high. 29 "If I have rejoiced at my enemy's misfortune or gloated over the trouble that came to him-- 30 I have not allowed my mouth to sin by invoking a curse against his life-- 31 if the men of my household have never said, 'Who has not had his fill of Job's meat?'-- 32 but no stranger had to spend the night in the street, for my door was always open to the traveler--

33 if I have concealed my sin as men do, by hiding my guilt in my heart 34 because I so feared the crowd and so dreaded the contempt of the clans that I kept silent and would not go outside-- 35 ("Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense--let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; like a prince I would approach him.)-- 38 "if my land cries out against me and all its furrows are wet with tears, 39 if I have devoured its yield without payment or broken the spirit of its tenants, 40 then let briers come up instead of wheat and weeds instead of barley." The words of Job are ended.

Does this sound like a man close to Christ or does it sound like a braggart who is defending his own righteousness? I don't see any humbleness....I don't see "I am the chief of sinners"....Or as Daniel said, “My comeliness [glory] was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength."

No, this is man that believes in God, but who thinks he can meet God eyeball to eyeball and say, "You give me your rules and I'll keep'em."

Let's read on:

Job 32:1 So these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job because he [Job] justified himself rather than God. "

Again, Job was like the man who said, "Thank God I'm not like other men...I tithe, I..I..I...I...!" In that story who went home justified? Not the one justifying himself before God, but instead the sinner....

So Job was NOT a humble man until after He met God....What does He say after a visit with God? Does he defend his righteousness? No, he places his hand over his mouth as if to say "shut up Job"...and he repents...He calls himself "vile"....What changed? Job, after he met God....

[phkrause]

Skyblue, I've changed the color back to black. Sorry about that. Hope you can read it now.

pk

[Robert]

Quote:

"The Testimonies of Sister White should not be carried to the front. God's Word is the unerring standard. The Testimonies are not to take the place of the Word of God. . . . Let us prove all our positions from Scripture and substantiate every point they claim from the revealed Word of God" By Ellen White in Evangelism, p. 256.

TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU

[John317]

let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless-- 7 if my steps have turned from the path, if my heart has been led by my eyes, or if my hands have been defiled, 8 then may others eat what I have sown, and may my crops be uprooted.

...

So Job was NOT a humble man until after He met God....What does He say after a visit with God? Does he defend his righteousness? No, he places his hand over his mouth as if to say "shut up Job"...and he repents...He calls himself "vile"....What changed? Job, after he met God....

If read in context, Job is here saying that he is not guilty of the sins that he's being accused of. He is not saying he's never sinned.

Notice at the end that Job does not say that his friends were right and that he wasn't a blameless man. Remember that "blameless" means having integrity. Does Job say, "I have no integrity"? No.

He calls himself "vile" in comparison with God. He doesn't say that he's guilty of the sins he's been accused of.

Compare the word in Job 42: 6 with its use in Job 7: 5. Spiritually he acknowledges himself broken and loathsome as his skin is broken and loathsome.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless-- 7 if my steps have turned from the path, if my heart has been led by my eyes, or if my hands have been defiled, 8 then may others eat what I have sown, and may my crops be uprooted.

...

So Job was NOT a humble man until after He met God....What does He say after a visit with God? Does he defend his righteousness? No, he places his hand over his mouth as if to say "shut up Job"...and he repents...He calls himself "vile"....What changed? Job, after he met God....

Job is saying that he is not guilty of the sins that he's being accused of.

Show me where Job's 3 friends accuse him of all the sins he speaks to in chapter 31....yes?

Now I know they were accusing him, but not of any specific sin....Their argument was God must be punishing you because of some secret sin in your life. They condemned him, as Elihu states, but without proof....However, it is Job who shows his true colors when he brags of his righteousness....He justified himself to God....

[Robert]

He calls himself "vile" in comparison with God. He doesn't say that he's guilty of the sins he's been accused of.

And who is the measuring stick of righteousness? God!

Again, what sins is he being accused of by these 3 fellows....?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

"The Testimonies of Sister White should not be carried to the front. God's Word is the unerring standard. The Testimonies are not to take the place of the Word of God. . . . Let us prove all our positions from Scripture and substantiate every point they claim from the revealed Word of God" By Ellen White in Evangelism, p. 256.

TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU TU

Thanks for all those thumbs up ... but I do have to give some of the credit to Ellen White. She done good here.

[skyblue888]

Skyblue, I've changed the color back to black. Sorry about that. Hope you can read it now.

pk

thanks!!! appreciated! :)

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

He calls himself "vile" in comparison with God. He doesn't say that he's guilty of the sins he's been accused of.

And who is the measuring stick of righteousness? God!

Again, what sins is he being accused of by these 3 fellows....?

Since you admit God is the measuring stick of righteousness, why then do you make Him a liar by not believing His testimony about Job? And believe the testimony of a man over His?

[Guest]

Good point Gerry

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I am willing to disprove that.

You are not willing to subject yourself to the same test however.

As moderator:

No need to prove anyone's ID here.

You and sky are not the same person and neither are Redwood and Robert.

Now:

Thank you for clarifying that, I assume you have performed an IP test to ascertain that information?

Just curious :-)

[Robert]

Since you admit God is the measuring stick of righteousness, why then do you make Him a liar by not believing His testimony about Job? And believe the testimony of a man over His?

1] That man, Elihu, was put in the Bible for a reason, Gerry. Talk about selective reading....

2] Jesus called the Pharisees righteous, does that make him a liar?