"Released from the Law"

[Guest]

I know that after 1000 years in heaven we'll be coming back here, but the Bible dosn't speak about a third coming, or a secret advent.

[John317]

I would agree about faith for those not in the last generation living on this earth--including Adam and Eve. .... I am talking about what will happen to the last generation living on this earth that will have heard the truth given by the witnesses and the 144k. At this time their faith and grace will not be enough to save them, because just like the tree--they will have to make a choice to receive the mark of the beast or the seal of God. Now, does this make sense?

Righteousness by faith doesn't mean obedience to God is unnecessary. It will be because of their faith, and by God's grace, that they will obey. Wouldn't you agree that it's because of faith and by God's grace that anyone ever obeys God's commandments now? Does anyone obey God on their own and in their own strength? When Abraham was faced with his test of being willing to sacrifice his son, wasn't it his trust in God that got him through it? And isn't it the Holy Spirit who gives us power and strength to live for God every day?

The reason the last generation will be able to pass the test you refer to here is that they have truly experienced righteousness by faith. They will have learned what it means to completely trust Christ and have surrendered every aspect of their life to Him. Their experience will be like Job's. Satan's attacks won't be able to separate them from the God they've learned to know, love and trust. They will choose to die rather than sin because of their faith in God.

[Robert]

NUT!

[Robert]

Their experience will be like Job's.

I don't think you realize your inference. Job's problem was self-righteousness....The Laodicean Church, which EGW compares to the SDA denomination, has to give up her self-righteousness before the gospel can be fully restored. Those who refuse to repent will be shaken out....They will join Babylon (a symbol of all apostate religions who perpetuates all false gospels).

[wayfinder]

RH,

Sorry I didn't answer you last night I had to go to bed.

As far as how I heard what I heard. I heard it in my mind, not with my ears. The only way I can describe it is that God communicated to my mind. This has happened to me before, but only on very rare occasions. The first time it happened was when I was preparing for my Sabbath school class on a Sabbath afternoon. The subject was the second beast of Revelation 13. I needed to show that it was the kingdom setup by Satan during the great tribulation. I needed to prove it from the Bible only. I was at an impasse and my only hope was that the Holy Spirit would lead me to the information in the Bible. I bowed my head and closed my eyes and explained my situation. Just as I was opening my eyes I heard, in my mind, sixth bowl. Only two words, but I know I heard them and I knew right then how to prove the point. I told my class that next Sabbath what had happen they were all amazed. The proof was very clear to them, if you are interested I will tell you tomorrow night when I get home from work.

[Guest]

Are you on a wierd schedule?

[wayfinder]

I work 8am-4:30 pm Mon-Fri, I have to take call one day/week and one weekend/month. I try to go to bed 9:30-10:30 pm pacific time.

[Guest]

I see. It's already 12:25 here. I won't be up too much longer.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Their experience will be like Job's.

I don't think you realize your inference. Job's problem was self-righteousness....The Laodicean Church, which EGW compares to the SDA denomination, has to give up her self-righteousness before the gospel can be fully restored. Those who refuse to repent will be shaken out....They will join Babylon (a symbol of all apostate religions who perpetuates all false gospels).

I agree with you in everything here except the part about Job's problem. I have read what Jack Sequeira says about this, and I am simply not convinced that he's right about it. I believe we can take the words of the narrator and of God about the spiritual condition of Job. It doesn't mean Job was sinless; it means that Job was someone whom God could depend on, a man who had integrity. It doesn't mean that Job had no lessons to learn and no improvements to make.

The experience of the last generation will be like Job's in that they will go through terrible persecution and will remain true and faithful to God because of their trust and faith in Him.

[Dr. Rich]

After reading the posts here I now believe there is a misunderstanding on the definition of two words; “righteousness” and “legalism”. John317 provided a wonderful view of what his definition of “faith” was and it appears to be more of a trust situation then blind faith. I have been blamed for not providing enough information to communicate my posts because it is clear that some people think I am way out in left field, when the truth is I am the pitcher. People hate my speech knuckle and curve balls just as bad as the opposing team did when I played baseball.

Getting back to basics, the word ‘righteousness’ must be fully understood if we want to argue about it. My definition for righteousness is ‘right doing’, or doing what God demands or commands.

God made Adam out of the earth then placed him into the garden and gave him one command, to not touch or eat of the tree of the learning the difference between good and evil. But let’s go back a bit. Was Adam made “righteous”? If you say yes, then what was it that made Adam righteous? If you say that Adam was evil because he was flesh, then what made him evil? I believe that Adam was neither—he was neutral. He didn’t know the difference between good and evil because he had not eaten from the tree yet. He was mortal and was going to die even IF he never ate from the tree of learning good and evil—right? Dying a natural death was not the penalty God said would happen on the day they ate from the learning good and evil tree. God said He would kill or execute them on that day and that would be the end—the 2nd death.

Angels are created spiritual beings. Adam and Eve were human beings. Angels live forever while humans are mortal and have to die eventually. While all beings have a choice, humans were given the choice to live forever or be dead forever when God placed the tree of life and the tree of learning good and evil in the midst of the garden.

When Adam ate from this tree, he quickly learned the difference. He knew that evil was not doing what God commanded from him. He knew that good was doing something—obeying God. This is NOT legalism; it is a choice.

But God did not kill Adam on that day because a plan for redemption had already been in place. If Adam had been killed, then there would not have been any offspring. So Adam did not pay this penalty.

This same type of test is for every human today. Jesus paid the penalty for Adam, but we must pass the test first before this penalty can also be removed from us. All of us have a choice to DO something. This is called “deeds” in Revelation and is the same as works. Bondservants are not free. They are the ones who have accepted the fact that Jesus bonded them from the penalty (paid the price) so that you belong to Him and must DO what He commanded to do.

[Ron Amnsn]

Rich, I agree with much of your definition of Righteousness. There are also a few concepts for me to ponder.

[Ron Amnsn]

As a result of my discussions with those who oppose Paul I have compiled an informal list of fallacies that come up repeatedly in the dialog. ... I can send you the list of fallacies if you're interested in knowing why folks don't accept your accusations against Paul.

As I was re-reading the list of fallacies before sending it out, I noticed that I'd used one of the fallacies to support a minor point in one of my earlier posts.

[John317]

My definition for righteousness is ‘right doing’, or doing what God demands or commands.

This is a basic meaning of righteousness. It refers to conformity to the will, or the moral law, of God. Adam and Eve were created in complete conformity to God's will. They were perfect in the day that they were created.

Quote:

Was Adam made “righteous”? If you say yes, then what was it that made Adam righteous?

Adam was definitely not evil at the time of his creation. He was "indeed very good." Gen. 1: 31.

Quote:

He was mortal and was going to die even IF he never ate from the tree of learning good and evil—right?

The Bible doesn't teach this. It says that he would die if he ate the fruit from the tree that God commanded him not to eat from. Adam and Eve were created with conditional immortality. That means they would have continued to live indefinitely if they hadn't disobeyed God. It was their disobedience (sin) that brought death.

The proof of this is Gen. 3: 22-24 where it tells us that if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, they would have continued to have access to the tree of life, which would have enabled them to live forever. They were exiled from the Garden for the purpose of keeping them from the tree, and this was in order to prevent them from living forever. Otherwise, they wouldn't have died.

Notice also that at the time the tree of life is restored to mankind, there will be no death. Humans will be given immortality.

Finally, Romans 5: 17; 6: 23 says that death came on the human race as a result of the sin of Adam.

[Guest]

Dr. Rich, You're not the pitcher if someone has to explain to you a point this plain and this simple. You don't seem to have a proper understanding of the most basic Biblical facts.

Keep that left field covered.

[Guest]

So Adam did not pay this penalty.

Adam did pay a penalty. He died. Had he not eaten of the fruit, he would still be alive today. Jesus paid the price so that Adam and the rest of us would not have to die the second death.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I don't think you realize your inference. Job's problem was self-righteousness....The Laodicean Church' date=' which EGW compares to the SDA denomination, has to give up her self-righteousness before the gospel can be fully restored. Those who refuse to repent will be shaken out....They will join Babylon (a symbol of all apostate religions who perpetuates all false gospels).

[/quote']

I agree with you in everything here except the part about Job's problem. I have read what Jack Sequeira says about this, and I am simply not convinced that he's right about it. I believe we can take the words of the narrator and of God about the spiritual condition of Job. It doesn't mean Job was sinless; it means that Job was someone whom God could depend on, a man who had integrity. It doesn't mean that Job had no lessons to learn and no improvements to make.

The experience of the last generation will be like Job's in that they will go through terrible persecution and will remain true and faithful to God because of their trust and faith in Him.

John317, I agree with you and there is enough revealed in the Bible and the SOP to know that Job was not a self-righteous man. On the contrary. In Ezekiel 14:14 he is mentioned among the righteous few. "Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness, says the Lord." Of course "their righteousness" was the Lord's as it is written, "Their righteousness is of Me, says the Lord." Isa.54:17.

"You have heard of the perseverance of Job..." James 5:11.

"They could understand the mystery of His mission no more than the friends of Job could understand his humiliation and suffering." D.A.88.

"Job's professed friends were misrable comforters, making his case more bitter and unbearable, and Job was not guilty as they supposed." T.M.350.

"There is wickedness in our world, but all the suffering is not the result of a perverted course of life. Job is brought distinctly before us as a man whom the Lord allowed Satan to afflict. The enemy stripped him of all he possessed; his family ties were broken; his children were taken from him. For a time his body was covered with loathsome sores, and he suffered greatly. His friends came to confort him, but they tried to make him see that he was responsible, by his sinful course, for his afflictions. But he defended himself, and denied the charge, declaring, Miserable comforters are ye all. By seeking to make him guilty before God, and deserving of His punishments, they brought a grievous test upon him, and represented God in a false light; but Job did not swerve from his loyalty, and God rewarded His faithful servant." E.G. White, MS 22,1898.

sky

[John317]

Yes, what you say about Job is very true. He was a righteous but not a self-righteous man. Some people take his words to mean that he was saying he was sinless, but that is taking them out of context. For instance, he said, "Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me. My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go." Job 27: 5, 6; see also 32: 1; 33: 9; 35: 2.

There he is simply talking about the fact that he knows he didn't commit the sins of which his "friends" accuse him.

[Robert]

The experience of the last generation will be like Job's in that they will go through terrible persecution and will remain true and faithful to God because of their trust and faith in Him.

Okay...I'll buy that...

[Robert]

Yes, what you say about Job is very true. He was a righteous but not a self-righteous man.

Of course I disagree....Don't forget the 4th man, Elihu....But I'm sure you don't want to go down that road....It will take us off subject....

[wayfinder]

Strong's Number: 4191 Muwth

1.to die, kill, have one executed

a.(Qal)

1.to die

2.to die (as penalty), be put to death

3.to die, perish (of a nation)

4.to die prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct)

b.(Polel) to kill, put to death, dispatch

c.(Hiphil) to kill, put to death

d.(Hophal)

1.to be killed, be put to death 1d

e.to die prematurely

Ge 2:17

but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die (muwth)."

The meaning of the word is beyond doubt, God said, "in the day you eat of it you will be put to death (executed). This did not happen for Adam and Eve continued to live. The died because they no longer had access to the Tree of Life. The question of their mortality is clear, they needed access to the Tree of Life to live forever. The only explanation for the placement of the Tree of Life in the garden, is they were mortal, otherwise the Tree of Life would not have been needed. If the penalty for eating of the "tree" was to die eventually (mortal) then Adam and Eve paid their own penalty when they died. The Son of God paid the penalty for Adam and Eve when He was executed on the cross. He was executed and did not die of "natural causes". He was executed by His Father; which was demonstrated in the "test of faith" when Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son Isaac. The ram caught in the thicket was executed in the place of Isaac. The wicked at the end of time are executed for disobedience to the will of God. Execution by God is the second death, it is the penalty for choosing to stand against God.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, what you say about Job is very true. He was a righteous but not a self-righteous man.

Of course I disagree....Don't forget the 4th man, Elihu....But I'm sure you don't want to go down that road....It will take us off subject....

OK, just this comment, then back on topic.

I don't believe Elihu is entirely reliable, just like the other 3 friends are not reliable. Elihu puts words in Job's mouth that we never hear him say, and if he said those things, we'd see them quoted by the narrator. I believe the reason God does not reprimand Elihu is that (1) he was young and immature; and (2) he didn't accuse Job in the same way that his other 3 friends did. In that sense, Elihu was closer to the truth and at least he was trying sincerely and honestly to speak in defense of God. In other words, his intentions were right, and that's very important to God.

The bottom line is that the narrator and God are reliable. The book has a serious problem if the narrator is unreliable or if God is not telling us the truth about Job.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Of course I disagree....Don't forget the 4th man, Elihu....But I'm sure you don't want to go down that road....It will take us off subject....[/quote']

OK, just this comment, then back on topic.

I don't believe Elihu is entirely reliable, just like the other 3 friends are not reliable.

But God never corrects Elihu, as He did Job and His 3 friends....True, they weren't corrected for the same things, but again Elihu was never corrected....

teehe

[John317]

Strong's Number: 4191 Muwth

1.to die, kill, have one executed

a.(Qal)

1.to die

2.to die (as penalty), be put to death

3.to die, perish (of a nation)

4.to die prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct)

b.(Polel) to kill, put to death, dispatch

c.(Hiphil) to kill, put to death

d.(Hophal)

1.to be killed, be put to death 1d

e.to die prematurely

Ge 2:17

but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die (muwth)."

The meaning of the word is beyond doubt, God said, "in the day you eat of it you will be put to death (executed). This did not happen for Adam and Eve continued to live.

They would have died that very same day if Christ had not offered to die eternal death in their place. But the truth is that on that very day, Adam and Eve did begin to die. The literal reading of the sentence was, "dying you shall die."

The meaning of the Hebrew word simply means to die and does not necessarily signify "execution." But if we compare Gen. 2: 17 with Gen. 26: 11, we find that they are saying the same thing, so I tend to agree that Gen. 2: 17 signifies more than mere natural death. It seems to be saying that God would see to it that Adam and Eve died. And I've no doubt that this this would have happened had Christ not volunteered to come and die as the Messiah, the Lamb slain from the foundations of the earth.

Quote:

The died because they no longer had access to the Tree of Life. The question of their mortality is clear, they needed access to the Tree of Life to live forever. The only explanation for the placement of the Tree of Life in the garden, is they were mortal, otherwise the Tree of Life would not have been needed.

I think we both agree that the only reason Adam and Eve died was that they sinned and lost access to the Tree of Life. God could not allow rebellious creatures to become immortal, and therefore God took away their access to the Tree. That seems very clear from the last three verses of Gen. 3.

[Dr. Rich]

John317, Yes, we agree that being removed from access to the tree of life would not allow Adam to live forever-so Adam had to have been mad mortal. This is against what many believe, but evidence proves it to be true.

The tree of learning was for good and evil. Therefore, by implication, Adam did not know good and could not have been made righteous. Yes, until he ate from the tree, he was doing what God told him to do and could be called righteous. But for how long did this go on, we don't know.

This thread is about the law. My point here is that Adam was not placed into the garden without a law. Yes, it was simple, but one that he could have done. It was not impossible for him to do, as God never commands us to do anything that is impossible. The ten commandments were not impossible to keep. What people today are confused about is the issue of 'works' vs 'grace'. All I am pointed out is that God's people have this same test--to choose righteousness.

RH-I was never a fielder. I did play shortstop, third base and second base, but I was a pitcher ever since early little league. I was also the captain or co-captain on almost every team I played on. When I was given an invite to attend to pitchers training for the St. Louis Cardinals it broke my heart because I could go—I got drafted in the Army instead.

So no, I never was a fielder. BTW-Little league title play is now going on here in San Bernardino! I love it!

[Guest]

I agree with most of what you said.