"Released from the Law"

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Paul was not evil? Ok, then it must have been the demon in him that made him write confusing things. (2Cor. 12:7-9)

Rich, if someone 2000 years from now and with a totally different language and culture were to read a translation of what you've written on this forum, do you think there might be some confusion as to what you really meant? There's often confusion as to what you really mean for those of us who read your messages now in the original language and culture.

When we read Paul's letters we're reading someone else's mail, and we're getting only one side of the dialog. The original readers knew the culture, language, and the context of Paul's letters and knew what questions and situations he was addressing.

Ron,

Is God a God of order or a God of confusion? IF, as you say, God has inspired ALL of the Bible writers such that their words are the very words of God THEN did not God have the power to keep confusion out of the text by aligning the words and meanings of each with the other? IF God was capable of limiting or eliminating confusion from the various texts that make up the New Testament (particularly) THEN why is confusion still rampant, and why is there not perfect harmony in the resulting theology? And finally, IF under these conditions it is impossible to discover and define Truth for yourself without the help, guidance and council of 'experts', and IF you need to seek the help, guidance, and council of the 'experts' to know what any Bible writer really meant by what they said THEN does this mean that Jesus Christ lied when He said that the Holy Spirit will lead you into ALL truth? Is this not limiting the power of the Holy Spirit to teach you everything you need to know for your own salvation? Does this not force you to rely on human agency to discover and know the truth instead of the divine agency of God?

[Ron Amnsn]

No, I can't buy that reasoning at all.

So, do you believe that Paul should have written his letters in such a manner that they could be easily understood by a wide range of readers from different cultures, languages, and eras; and that he should have fully explained each of the situations that he was addressing so that people who were unfamiliar with the issues at hand would be able to easily understand each situation?

[Dr. Rich]

RH and John317, have either or both of you been born of the Holy Spirit? Has anyone here on this thread?

[wayfinder]

Revelation 2:1,2 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this: `I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;

Who was the apostle who started the church at Ephesus? Then would this imply that we must test all those who call themselves apostles? When they call themselves apostles, seem everyone accepts them at their word.

[John317]

That's an interesting question. People have said the same thing about the Old Testament, of course. In fact, many say the same thing about the Gospels.

Let's admit the fact that there are many different, and even contradictory, interpretations of the teachings of Jesus, as well as of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and Zechariah, to say nothing of Moses.

Remember that it required Jesus Himself to explain the Old Testament before people could truly understand it. Luke 24: 27, 45

It begs the question, why did God have the Bible written as He did? After all, He could have had it written as plainly as the newspaper, making the prose and poetry almost transparent and eliminating all possibility of misunderstanding. Why, then, did God choose to have it written with the complexity that it contains, so that it is possible for people to misunderstand it? For instance, why were the prophecies written in symbols and not straightforwardly?

Is it possible that God had it written purposely so that those who want to doubt and reject truth will have a place to hang their doubt on?

Is that related to the question why Jesus preached in parables?

[wayfinder]

RA, No, only those who are searching for the truth. If you are satisfied with what you have, you have no reason to change; but if you are honestly searching for the truth you must be prepared to have your understanding shaken to its core. In the words of the Master Teacher, you must become like a little child.

[wayfinder]

Mt 13:10

And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"

Mt 13:13

"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Da 12:10

" Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.

Those who have insight will understand. Doesn't say anything about credentials.

[Guest]

wayfinder, I know you claim to have this insight. Are you saying that since we don't see it your way that we're all wicked?

[John317]

That's true-- no mention of credentials being necessary to understand. But what is necessary is the Holy Spirit and the genuine desire to understand and put into practice the truth that God reveals. And it shows that there is a reason why the Bible was written as it was rather than in simple, straightforward language. The Bible is simple enough for children to understand it on a certain level, but it is profound and complex enough that the most intelligent student can continue to learn and gain insights as long as he lives.

When we don't understand something in Scripture, the thing we need to do is keep studying and praying, not reject it and accuse it of having been inspired by the devil.

[wayfinder]

Richard, I have never claimed to have "this insight". I do see much differently than I had for 25+ years. I may and I may not have this insight, I guess time will tell.

[wayfinder]

John317,

Without any question the Holy Spirit is the Teacher. The Holy Spirit leads us and comforts us. It may be why we (everyone on this forum) are here; because the Holy Spirit has led us here.

[John317]

Paul was not evil? Ok, then it must have been the demon in him that made him write confusing things. (2Cor. 12:7-9)

I don't find Paul confusing, although I understand that many others do. There are many people who find John Milton's poety very difficult and hard to understand. Others breeze through it. The fact that a piece of writing is difficult-- or "confusing"-- is not a sign of not being from God. Some find the book of Job difficult and confusing.

Just because the books of the Bible contain some things difficult for you to understand or because you think they contradict Jesus does not mean that you should throw those books out or encourage other Christians to reject them. You are doing exactly what 2 Peter 3: 15, 16 warns us not to do, but sadly you don't accept it because you've decided that 2 Peter is not part of Holy Scripture.

[wayfinder]

RH, I consider you a friend of mine, and you are not wicked, because you love the truth. What I am saying is that those who become like a little child (start fresh the learning process) that the truth is discoverable to anyone who is willing to particapate. We, including me, must not let our paradigms and convictions prevent us from discovering the truth. If what we know and understand right now is truth then we will confirm it through the discovery process. Take it from someone who has changed their understanding completely, when you come to know the truth it changes you. This is not something you say you must do, you just do it. The truth changes your character to be in harmony with the Son of God, Who is Truth. When Jesus prayed for us to be one with Him, He used the context of sanctification, sanctify them in the truth Thy word is truth. Sanctification is the process whereby truth replaces lies in our knowledge and understanding.

True knowledge combined with understanding the truth is wisdom. Lies combined with false understanding is foolishness.

[Guest]

I consider you a friend too, but I can't just throw out the prophet along with perfectly good scripture.

[wayfinder]

At least not yet. All you need to do is be perfectly honest with yourself, I know you can do that.

By the way, I think you said sometime back you play the guitar, so do I.

[Guest]

Really? Yes I've been playing a long time.

[wayfinder]

So have I, since 1968. I use to write songs, you would never believe the title of one of them, "You got to Live by Faith", my how things do change.

[Guest]

I still can't figure why you think you don't need any faith. Jesus talks about having faith.

[John317]

You don't believe in living daily by faith in God? Jesus said, Have faith in God.

[wayfinder]

I prefer trust, it may just be a matter of semantics, but I see faith as hope based upon nothing. I see trust as expectation based upon past performance.

[wayfinder]

I know I can trust God, based upon past performance, therefore I live daily trusting Him.

[Guest]

That's good but what about the guy who has never seen God work? Almost every time Jesus healed somebody, he would say "your faith has made you whole"

[wayfinder]

RH,

Sorry, I was to brief in by post. We all start in darkness, when we are in darkness we cannot see a thing. We must start our walk in the dark by faith. Faith is needed when we can't see a thing. As we move out of darkness into the light we no longer live by faith, because we can now see (true understanding)and we walk trusting in the light and Jesus said when we walk in the light we will become sons of the light.

John 3:19-21

"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Joh 12:35

So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes.

Joh 12:36

"While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light." These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them.

[Guest]

Hey wayfinder, how long has it been since that thing with the demon happened?

[wayfinder]

8 years.