"Released from the Law"

[Guest]

Now I understand the saying: "There are none so blind as those who will not see"

[Musicman1228]

“For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it. Deut.30:11-14.

It seems to me that by making the claim that you CANNOT obey the 10 Commandments (with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit) then you are saying to God, "You're wrong, no one can keep the Commandments."

God does not give people tasks of which they are incapable. Tell me, what is so difficult about not murdering someone, or coveting your neighbors car or wife? Why do you find it impossible to love God and not worship idols?

Are the requirements of the 10 Commandments such that keeping them is impossible? Because if this is the case then God MUST be a liar for asking His people to declare themselves His people by keeping a Covenant that He established for that purpose. This is why many people view the God of the Old Testament as different from the God of the New Testament.

If someone is righteous (defined as keeping the Covenant) then what would be the purpose of grace? Isn't grace defined as Jesus covering us so we don't have to be righteous? Grace only works where a person is unrighteous. If a person is righteous then they do not need grace. Does Jesus Christ need grace? If we are to be like Jesus Christ and we become as He is, then would we need grace as defined by Paul's gospel?

[Guest]

MM you don't know what grace is. You yourself described grace without knowing it in your 2nd paragraph:

" (with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit) "

That's what grace is. The Power to do right. That and the forgiveness of past sins.

No one said you can't keep the law. Just that you need the power of the Holy Spirit to do it. Grace.

[Guest]

And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Act 4:33

[John317]

Wow John317, are you really messed up in your thinking because someone has led you astray! NO WHERE did God say anything about the ten commandments being given to free or slaves--they were given to ONLY those that wanted to be in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Did God give Israel the Ten Commandments before they were freed from Egyptian slavery or AFTER He freed them?

Check out the preamble, found in Exodus 20: 2.

Could the people serve God while in slavery? See Exodus 9: 1.

Can we serve God while in slavery to sin? Study Romans 6 and 8.

Christ gives us liberty through His Spirit. See Gal. 5.

Without that freedom, which comes ONLY through His Spirit, we are slaves to the flesh and to sin like the children Israel were slaves in Egypt. See 1 John 3: 1-10; Romans 6: 8-23.

[Ron Amnsn]

“For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it. Deut.30:11-14.

It seems to me that by making the claim that you CANNOT obey the 10 Commandments (with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit) then you are saying to God, "You're wrong, no one can keep the Commandments."

Musicman, I agree with you on this. The amazing thing is that the passage you quoted is talking about the whole book of the law, not just the 10 Commandments. People who believe that the Law of Moses was onerous and impossible to keep, are apparently confused.

The Law of Moses has fewer regulations than NFL football, and people call football entertainment. It seems we could embrace a reasonable number of God-given regulations for something serious like life itself.

[John317]

“For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it. Deut.30:11-14.

It seems to me that by making the claim that you CANNOT obey the 10 Commandments (with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit) then you are saying to God, "You're wrong, no one can keep the Commandments."

That was my point earlier: we cannot possibly keep God's law without the Holy Spirit in our lives. With His Holy Spirit (which is a part of God's "grace"), we are empowered to keep His law and do His will. Most of the children of Israel tried to obey God on their own and they failed miserably. God told them that they could keep His law but that they couldn't do it alone; they needed help. They needed His Spirit.

Quote:

God does not give people tasks of which they are incapable. Tell me, what is so difficult about not murdering someone, or coveting your neighbors car or wife? Why do you find it impossible to love God and not worship idols?

Are the requirements of the 10 Commandments such that keeping them is impossible?

It's important to remember that the law is spiritual and that they don't refer merely to behavior but to our thinking and our motives and intentions as well. Apart from the Spirit, we can't have good motives and intentions, etc.

So we can't do it unless we're walking in the Spirit, as Paul says in Gal. 5: 16. It's through the Holy Spirit that God writes His laws on our hearts and minds. Heb. 10: 15-16. When people are living according to the flesh, it's an absolute impossibility for anyone to obey God's law. We need resurrection power in order to live righteously for God because we are born spiritually dead. That is why we MUST be born again. Compare John 3: 3-8 and Romans 8: 11-17.

[Dr. Rich]

John317--Have you ever researched as to why Israel went into slavery in Egypt? They did NOT obey God! Period! It's all about obediance. Paul said no one can obey God so that is why there needs to be grace. That's a bold faced lie--the same one the serpant gave to Eve.

In John 17 we see where Jesus said that He became sanctified so that the 12 disciples can also become sanctified. Were is grace in this? When you become sanctified why would you need grace?

You know what?--because of what Jesus said in John 17 it is absolute proof--100%--that Paul could NOT have been chosen by Jesus. Why? Because that would have made Jesus a liar and He was NOT a liar!

[Dr. Rich]

BTW--Keeping all ten of the commandments--by it's own words--means that you abide in God. You can't keep all ten without abiding in God--it is impossible! You would be breaking the first three.

[Guest]

Paul said no one can obey God without the help of the Spirit. Gal 5:16, Rom 8:13

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

[oldsailor29]

I think a lot of people are still following Moses and not Jesus. Jesus makes it quite clear that following Him is not the same as following Moses.

[Guest]

DR, You misunderstand what grace is. It is the power to do RIGHT.

[John317]

Paul said no one can obey God so that is why there needs to be grace. That's a bold faced lie--the same one the serpant gave to Eve.

But the Devil didn't tell Eve that no one could obey God and therefore they need grace. He said that God lied, just as you are saying that Paul lied.

Please quote the verse where you believe the apostle told "a bold faced lie."

In Paul's letters, the Holy Spirit inspired the apostle to write that without the Spirit in the life no one can keep the law of God. And Paul certainly did write that no one except Christ has kept the law perfectly. We all are sinners and condemned by the law of God. That is why Jesus needed to come if we were ever to have Eden restored to us.

God's grace is given to us in the following ways:

a) God forgives me of my sins.

When I place my trust and confidence in Christ, He credits me with all of the righteousness of Christ. I receive that as a gift. I cannot possibly earn it.

c) He gives me the gift of the Holy Spirit to be with me and in me, to teach me and guide me and convict me of my sins and to keep pointing me to Christ as my sin-bearer and High Priest.

d) He empowers me through His in-dwelling Spirit so that I can resist temptations to sin and do His will.

e) He gives me the beautiful promises and assurances found in 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6.

[John317]

BTW--Keeping all ten of the commandments--by it's own words--means that you abide in God. You can't keep all ten without abiding in God--it is impossible! You would be breaking the first three.

Can anyone abide in God without the Spirit of God abiding in him?

"Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." Rom. 8: 9, 14.

How does the Holy Spirit "abide" in us?

Through God's putting His seed, or nature, within us by the new birth. See 1 John 3: 9; Romans 8: 11.

And if we are not under the control of God, under whose control are we?

[Dr. Rich]

RH wrote "Paul said no one can obey God without the help of the Spirit. Gal 5:16, Rom 8:13"

If this was true then God lied to Israel as musicman so nicely pointed out. I really hate Paul for what he did! I totally abhor evil and I can't think of anyone more evil then Paul was. No wonder he changed his name to a pagan/greek name!

The Kingdom of Heaven in the last days will be the ones who totally keep the ten commandments and obey the testimony of Jesus.

[Guest]

Paul was not evil, but those who preach another gospel from Paul and Jesus are.

[olger]

A rather hearty Amen from..

g

[Dr. Rich]

Paul was not evil? Ok, then it must have been the demon in him that made him write confusing things. (2Cor. 12:7-9)

[Guest]

Ol Ger...

[Ron Amnsn]

I think a lot of people are still following Moses and not Jesus. Jesus makes it quite clear that following Him is not the same as following Moses.

OldSailor, maybe you could quote some of the passages where Jesus makes that clear.

Didn't Jesus live according to the Law of Moses? If he hadn't, wouldn't he have been a sinner?

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

I think a lot of people are still following Moses and not Jesus. Jesus makes it quite clear that following Him is not the same as following Moses.

OldSailor, maybe you could quote some of the passages where Jesus makes that clear.

Didn't Jesus live according to the Law of Moses? If he hadn't, wouldn't he have been a sinner?

Ron - Just read the quotations of Jesus, printed in red in many New Testaments, and if you don't find the clear statements to which I refer, then there is nothing to which I can point that will say to you what it says to me.

Jesus reinterpreted the law and the prophets and lived according to His reinterpretations. And He said we should follow Him.

[Ron Amnsn]

Paul was not evil? Ok, then it must have been the demon in him that made him write confusing things. (2Cor. 12:7-9)

Rich, if someone 2000 years from now and with a totally different language and culture were to read a translation of what you've written on this forum, do you think there might be some confusion as to what you really meant? There's often confusion as to what you really mean for those of us who read your messages now in the original language and culture.

When we read Paul's letters we're reading someone else's mail, and we're getting only one side of the dialog. The original readers knew the culture, language, and the context of Paul's letters and knew what questions and situations he was addressing.

[Ron Amnsn]

Ron - Just read the quotations of Jesus, printed in red in many New Testaments, and if you don't find the clear statements to which I refer, then there is nothing to which I can point that will say to you what it says to me.

OldSailor, you're bluffing now aren't you? Ok, go ahead. We'll let you off this time in deference to your age. But now you know-- when you tell us we're wrong and that you're right and that it's clear in the Scriptures, we're gonna expect you to provide some evidence to back up your bluster.

[Dr. Rich]

No, I can't buy that reasoning at all.

[Guest]

He's right DR, we have a hard time making any sense at all out of what you say now.