"Released from the Law"

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

Ok. I'm not in a hurry. I'm willing to look at whatever evidence you would like to present from the Bible. Paul may have stated something like what you mention. We can look at it in context.

Because we do not tend to examine the man-made assumptions and traditions that have been accepted from the Roman Church' date=' those assumptions and traditions operate in the background of our thinking coloring our interpretation of Bible passages. We must look carefully at the context. Even if Paul had equal authority as the other apostles had individually, that would not mean that he (or they) had unlimited universal authority, nor would it mean that Paul individually had equal authority to the apostles and elders acting together as a group. It is especially important to examine our own assumptions when dealing with passages that seem to disagree with earlier portions of Scripture (such as the Law and the Prophets). Neither Paul nor the other apostles had the authority to change, annul, or overturn the Old Testament.

I'm interested in avoiding the "lot of trouble" that you mention, but not if I have to accept man-made tradition or man-made doctrine to do so. Please show me from Scripture the "trouble" that you have warned me about.

[/quote']

that would not mean that he (or they) had unlimited universal authority,

Interesting statement.

Why would they not have unlimited universal authority, do you have scripture for that?

Mark :-)

Paul had no more authority than the word that he preached. What gives authority to a man is not position or talent or anything else except the truth that he preaches. The word of God is the sole authority and the Testimonies of His Spirit, of course.

sky

[skyblue888]

My thoughts, too, sky... It's funny how people with different mindsets see a set of words.

I know. It is a marvel! It seems as though every species of fanaticism is manifesting iself in these last days! We must be wide-awake, to be sure.

sky

[Musicman1228]

I am NOT slandering anyone, I am answering a statement with texts from Paul. If Paul does not mean what he (obvious to me) said then someone please explain what he did mean. Paul is very ambiguous in much of his teaching, first saying one thing and then the opposite. How am I supposed to know what he means unless I take him at his word? And while you do that would you please prove that you do know what he meant. My response was to the statement that Paul was the most humble apostle. I just don't see it, but I am willing to look at any proof that shows where I am wrong.

In humility,

MM

[skyblue888]

Just because someone thinks he sees a contradiction in the Word of God does not mean there is a contradiction there. "Thy word is truth." John 17:17. It can only be a seeming contradiction. If you do not accept this, musicman, then there is no need to have this discussion for "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." 2 Tim.3:16.

Now if all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, then there are no contradictions in the Word of God, only seeming contradictions.

The apostle Paul was a great man of God, the greatest of the apostles and some would have us believe that he is contradicting himself all the time and that he was an arrogant man!!!

I am sorry, musicman, but I will not follow you where your "spirit" is listing. First you need to understand that God does not contradict Himself in His word whether He is speaking through Paul or anyone of the prophets.

Remember, all Scripture are given by inspiration, unless all of Paul's letters are to be discarded as non-inspired but I an not ready to do this any time soon!

sky

[Musicman1228]

Sky,

Now if you are talking about the Scriptures that they had at the time the "all Scripture is given by inspiration" quote was said then I will definitely go along with you. But if you are talking about the entire Bible cover to cover I'm sorry I can't.

At the time that quote was made THE NEW TESTAMENT DID NOT EXIST. Jesus and the other disciples only had and used what we now call the Old Testament as Scripture. When Jesus used Scripture to defeat Satan in the desert He used the O.T.

I see all sorts of contradictions between the New Testament and the Old Testament. So when someone asks me "What kind of Christian are you?" I always say, "The same kind as Jesus, I am an Old Testament Christian."

[skyblue888]

I know that Abraham was a Christian and so was the apostle Paul.

The Bible, from cover to cover, is the voice of Christ.

If we are to take you seriously, then that means that the whole of the New Testament has to be discarded which I am not about to do.

Anyway, this to me is a nothing but a distraction, a pure invention, a crying baby to veer us off from the most important issues. May be I am close minded but let me tell you right now that nothing, absolutely nothing or anyone will ever convince me that Paul's letters are not inspired and that that man was arrogant. It coudn't be any further from the truth!!!

sky

[LifeHiscost]

My response was to the statement that Paul was the most humble apostle. I just don't see it, but I am willing to look at any proof that shows where I am wrong.

In humility,

MM

"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."Romans 7:18

KJV

Even humility is of the Holy Spirit and cannot be claimed as our own apart from the indwelling Christ, as also is the ability to live righteously which some deny to be possible, not withstanding the direct claims of the inspired Word.

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."2 Timothy 3:5 KJV

"Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee"

Regards!

[Ron Amnsn]

I see all sorts of contradictions between the New Testament and the Old Testament. So when someone asks me "What kind of Christian are you?" I always say, "The same kind as Jesus, I am an Old Testament Christian."

Musicman, I agree that it was the Old Testament that Paul said was all given by inspiration and all profitable. And I like the term Old Testament Christian.

Virtually all of the contradictions between the NT and the OT can be resolved by putting the NT writings back into their actual historical context. Words mean different things in different contexts. If you said, "I really like people," it would mean something quite different than if a cannibal said, "I really like people." But if I had grown up in a cannibal society and read where you wrote that you "liked people", it would be natural for me to assume (incorrectly) that your liking for people was the same as my culture's liking of people. Then when I became a Christian and gave up cannibalism I could continue to assume (falsely) that you were still a cannibal and that when you said, "I like people," you meant that you liked to eat people. I think that's what you're doing to Paul -- interpreting his writings by your native culture. Instead of judging you (falsely) as a cannibal I should go back and learn about your culture to find out what you meant in your culture when you said, "I like people."

You and I grew up in a culture that interpreted the NT as if it was written by and for proto-Adventists or proto-protestants (folks like us who lived before there were Adventists or Protestants). But that way of interpreting the NT is based on an historical fantasy. The first-century believers were still Jewish in thought and practice. They hadn't "converted" to Christianity, they had simply accepted Jesus as the Jewish Messiah that had been foretold in the Jewish scriptures. With the help of the Holy Spirit they were diligently living the same Old Testament lifestyle that Jesus lived. They were debating the issues that caused differences between the various sects within Judaism and how to properly bring Gentiles into the Jewish congregations (where in some towns the various sects met together). Christianity at that time was a sect within Judaism. When we read where Paul says (paraphrasing), "It doesn't matter what day you keep", we assume that he's talking about Sabbath vs Sunday because that's what Christians have debated in our culture. But in Jewish culture that has never been an issue (because Sabbath is clearly defined in the OT). They have, however, debated which days should be kept as fasts (such as the ninth of Av), and other issues that are not clearly defined by Scripture.

It is good that you have now personally grown to the place where you no longer accept the NT interpretations that disagree with the OT. But rather than insisting that your former understanding of the NT is the authentic interpretation (which should be rejected), you should go back now and learn how those NT passages that seem to disagree with the OT would have been interpreted within first-century Judaism. I think you'll find, as many of us have, that Paul too would utterly reject the NT interpretations that you have rejected, and that Paul too was an Old Testament Christian, like Jesus.

[wayfinder]

skyblue888,

Abraham was a Christian? He lived and died around 2000 BC (Before Christ)

[Musicman1228]

Ron, Thanks, I will definitely think on the things you have said. I am aware of the cultural differences and I'm going to have to work on how God gets the information He wants for us to know through those cultural differences. What you are doing is giving me something to work on which I appreciate, rather than just saying I'm wrong and leaving me swinging in the breeze.

I thought of another analogy; Can a masochist function under the Golden Rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

[Ron Amnsn]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

that would not mean that he (or they) had unlimited universal authority,

Interesting statement.

Why would they not have unlimited universal authority, do you have scripture for that?

In a perfect world, the burden of proof would be on you to show that Paul and the other apostles had, as individuals, unlimited universal authority. However, I realize that this is not a perfect world because modern Christianity has largely accepted (without questioning or testing it) the tradition-based teaching of the Roman Church regarding the authority of the apostles and the meaning of the word "apostle" itself.

I have already shared some passages that showed that Paul and his contemporaries did not view Paul's authority as universal within Christianity. There are more. In Acts 11:25 we see Paul taking direction from Barnabas (rather than giving it). In Acts 15:36-39 Barnabas shows rather clearly that he did not believe that Paul had universal authority.

Modern Christians already show by their actions and policies that they do not believe Paul's authority was universal-- they believe that Paul's authority was limited by time and place. For example, Paul instructed the believers (in four separate passages) to greet each other with a holy kiss, yet I have met only a handful of people who obeyed Paul in this matter. The rest of modern Christians have determined (correctly) that Paul's authority over how we greet other believers was not universal.

Another example is 1 Corinthians 14:29 where Paul says, "Let two or three prophets speak and let the others weigh what is said." I have never seen this instruction of Paul's followed in an Adventist congregation. Adventists have somehow determined that Paul's authority in this matter does not apply to Adventist congregations. If Paul' authority was truly universal, there should be a time allotted in the congregation when prophets are allowed to speak, and time for the people to weigh what was said. The lack of this practice in the Adventist churches may show that Adventists understand the limits of Paul's authority, or it may merely show that Adventists have accepted the traditions of the mother Roman Church regarding who may speak up in the congregation.

[Musicman1228]

Again, good stuff.

[Just*]

I know that Abraham was a Christian and so was the apostle Paul.

Amen.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Galatians 3:16.17 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

John 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

I know that Abraham was a Christian and so was the apostle Paul.

Amen.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Galatians 3:16.17 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

John 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

Amen!

"Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow." 1 Peter 1:10,11.

sky

[Musicman1228]

How could Abraham be a Christian since 1) Abraham did not know Jesus by that name, and 2) the title Christian was not used until Paul created it after Jesus had already gone back to Heaven. Abraham was not a Christian by any stretch of the imagination.

[Guest]

Dosn't matter what his name was, it was the same Jesus/Son of God that created the worlds.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. John 8:56

[Gerr]

Guys, you are using semantics. Technically speaking, Wayfinder is correct. The label "Christian" did not come until over a thousand years after Abraham. But in principle Skyblue is right because Abraham did believe in the "Anointed One", the Christ, the Seed, to come.

[Musicman1228]

The term 'Christian' describes a specific theology and liturgy (religion and practice) if you will, as much or more than the person and name of the Christ. Abraham was the precursor of the House of Israel and knew nothing of the beliefs and practices of the religion of 'Christianity'. Yes, he knew of 'Michael' (one who is of God) or whoever God was (as a name) at that time, Jesus said so. But Abraham did not know the name of Jesus, he did not practice the 'Christian' religion, or believe in salvation by grace through faith. All that came after Jesus Christ went back to Heaven.

If we are going to be careful and clear in defining our terms (semantics) then you can't go around calling Abraham or anyone before the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ a Christian. Even Jesus did not define Himself as a Christian, He was a practicing Jew who came to earth to save the lost sheep of the House of Israel (see above).

[skyblue888]

If Abraham was not a Christian, then what was he?

It was Christ, the Angel of the Lord, who met with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden before and after the fall and it was Christ who instituted the system of sacrifices in the garden of Eden; it was Christ who appeared to Moses at the burning bush; it was Christ who appeared to Abraham several times. Adam and Abraham and Moses and all the prophets of old were Christians. They all trusted in the merits of a Saviour to come.

Speaking of Adam we read, "Faithfully did he repent of his sin and trust in the merits of the promised Saviour." The Great Controversy,647,648.

"Through the sacrifices and offerings brought to the earthly sanctuary, the children of Israel were to lay hold of the merits of a Saviour to come." E.G.W. Spiritual Gifts, Vol.1, p.161.

Today we are to trust in the merits of a Saviour who has already come. It is our only hope as it was their only hope for time and eternity. Jesus is now pleading His divine merits before the Father in our behalf. "He has turned the merits of His sacrifice in to prayer." Bible Commentary, Vol.7a,358.

Whether true believers who lived in Old Testament times were called Christians or not make no difference. We don't have to wait until after the crucifixion of Christ to find Christians.

sky

All who are among the redeemed, from Adam to the 144,000, will have been Christians.

And to say that Abraham knew nothing of salvation by grace through faith in the merits of Christ could not be any further from the truth. Chapters 3 and 4 of the book of Romans speak of Abraham as the father of all who believe in Christ and to believe in Christ is to believe that we are saved by grace through faith in the all-sufficient merits of His infinite sacrifice, whether we live in Old Testament times or after.

[Guest]

That was very well put. I wonder what musicman will say to this.

[wayfinder]

Sky,

Strong's Number: 5547 Christos

Christ = "anointed"

1.Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God

2.anointed

The Angel of the Lord had the name Michael.

Strong's Number: 4317 Miyka'el

Michael = "who is like God"

1. one of, the chief, or the first archangel who is described as the one who stands in time of conflict for the children of Israel

Exodus 23:20-24 "Behold, I am going to send an angel before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. "Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since My name is in him. "But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. " For My angel will go before you and bring you in to {the land of} the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will completely destroy them.

Genesis 4:2-5 Again, she gave birth to his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of flocks, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground. Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering; but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell.

4:6, 7 (Septuagint) And the Lord God said to Cain, Why art thou become very sorrowful and why is thy countenance fallen? Hast thou not sinned if thou hast brought it rightly, but not rightly divided it? be still, to thee shall be his submission, and thou shalt rule over him.

Ex 12:3

"Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying, 'On the tenth of this month they are each one to take a lamb for themselves, according to their fathers' households, a lamb for each household.

Please show me in the Law where God said anything about the plan of salvation prior to the institution of Passover.

Cain and Able brought a thank offering from the "fruit" of their labors. The thank offerings were giving God thanks for blessing the "fruit" of their labors. Notice that Abel brought the best and firstfruits. Cain, on the other hand, brought what he didn't want or couldn't use, probably what had fallen on the ground. God tells Cain, "is it not a sin if it is brought rightly, but not rightly divided?"

You are free to use EGW and Paul all you want, but don't use them to support your beliefs with me. Use only the words of the Son of God as recorded by His eyewitness and the Law and Prophets. If what you believe is the truth, it would be found in these sources, this is not an unreasonable request.

[skyblue888]

I think i Know who you two are wayfinder and musicman,, i think we have met before on another adv forum, haven't we?

[wayfinder]

This is the only forum I have time for, I have to earn a living etc.

I believe that this is the only forum Musicman1228 is on also and he is ready to leave it, but I will stick around for awhile.

[Guest]

Wayfinder, where's DR?

[wayfinder]

He has been suspended from the forum for a month.