"Released from the Law"

[Robert]

why then do you make Him a liar by not believing His testimony about Job?

God's integrity is not the problem, yours is....It is you and your self-righteous theology that paints God to be a liar.

God said, "I hardened Pharaoh heart", but in another place we read, "Pharaoh hardened his own heart". Is God a liar or is it we do no understand the issues involved? Well, that's were you have a problem....You are a surface reader....

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Since you admit God is the measuring stick of righteousness, why then do you make Him a liar by not believing His testimony about Job? And believe the testimony of a man over His?

1] That man, Elihu, was put in the Bible for a reason, Gerry. Talk about selective reading....

2] Jesus called the Pharisees righteous, does that make him a liar?

2) This is beating a dead horse and taking the quote out of context Robert. It is clear Jesus is reffering to their "own" opinion and "standard" of righteousness and not Gods.

"Except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees..." (paraphrase), gives it its full context.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Now, let's look at Job:

Job 31:1 "I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl. 2 For what is man's lot from God above, his heritage from the Almighty on high? 3 Is it not ruin for the wicked, disaster for those who do wrong? 4 Does he not see my ways and count my every step? 5 "If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit-- 6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless-- 7 if my steps have turned from the path, if my heart has been led by my eyes, or if my hands have been defiled, 8 then may others eat what I have sown, and may my crops be uprooted.

9 "If my heart has been enticed by a woman, or if I have lurked at my neighbor's door, 10 then may my wife grind another man's grain, and may other men sleep with her. 11 For that would have been shameful, a sin to be judged. 12 It is a fire that burns to Destruction; it would have uprooted my harvest. 13 "If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants when they had a grievance against me, 14 what will I do when God confronts me? What will I answer when called to account? 15 Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?

16 "If I have denied the desires of the poor or let the eyes of the widow grow weary, 17 if I have kept my bread to myself, not sharing it with the fatherless-- 18 but from my youth I reared him as would a father, and from my birth I guided the widow-- 19 if I have seen anyone perishing for lack of clothing, or a needy man without a garment, 20 and his heart did not bless me for warming him with the fleece from my sheep, 21 if I have raised my hand against the fatherless, knowing that I had influence in court, 22 then let my arm fall from the shoulder, let it be broken off at the joint. 23 For I dreaded destruction from God, and for fear of his splendor I could not do such things.

24 "If I have put my trust in gold or said to pure gold, 'You are my security,' 25 if I have rejoiced over my great wealth, the fortune my hands had gained, 26 if I have regarded the sun in its radiance or the moon moving in splendor, 27 so that my heart was secretly enticed and my hand offered them a kiss of homage, 28 then these also would be sins to be judged, for I would have been unfaithful to God on high. 29 "If I have rejoiced at my enemy's misfortune or gloated over the trouble that came to him-- 30 I have not allowed my mouth to sin by invoking a curse against his life-- 31 if the men of my household have never said, 'Who has not had his fill of Job's meat?'-- 32 but no stranger had to spend the night in the street, for my door was always open to the traveler--

33 if I have concealed my sin as men do, by hiding my guilt in my heart 34 because I so feared the crowd and so dreaded the contempt of the clans that I kept silent and would not go outside-- 35 ("Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense--let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; like a prince I would approach him.)-- 38 "if my land cries out against me and all its furrows are wet with tears, 39 if I have devoured its yield without payment or broken the spirit of its tenants, 40 then let briers come up instead of wheat and weeds instead of barley." The words of Job are ended.

So you believe he was not telling the truth? If he was telling the truth, and I believe he was, then he was following what the Apostle John said, "If you know that He is righteous, you know that that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him," 1 Jn 2:29 ESV. And "...He who practices righteousness is righteous," 1 Jn 3:7 ESV.

So since he was practicing righteousness, John says he is righteous. God said it twice he is righteous, James and Ezekiel said he is righteous, and you dare to contradict their testimony? You want me to believe your word over theirs? No, I haven't taken leave of my sanity yet.

[Gerr]

1] That man, Elihu, was put in the Bible for a reason, Gerry. Talk about selective reading....[/qote]

Selective reading? And for what purpose was God's testimony, the narrator's testimony, Ezekiel's & James' testimony put in Scripture?

Has it ever occurred to you that He may have been referring to unfallen beings who need neither healing nor repentance? Or did Jesus die only for the publicans? Did He not die for the Pharisees also?

[Guest]

Hey Robert,

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20

Here Jesus calls them righteous. It is clear that whenever he calls the Pharisees righteous, he isn't talking about the kind of righteousness he wants us to have.

This was pointed out earlier by Twilight. Why is it so hard for you to understand?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

As moderator:

No need to prove anyone's ID here.

You and sky are not the same person and neither are Redwood and Robert.

Now:

Thank you for clarifying that' date=' I assume you have performed an IP test to ascertain that information?

Just curious :-)

[/quote']

This is contrary to the established rules of this forum. Questioning the statement of a moderator acting in his official capacity is a violation of the spirit and letter of the law.

[Robert]

"Except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees..." (paraphrase), gives it its full context.

Dude, that's not even the immediate context....However, you arrived that "righteousness" must mean self-righteousness by reading elsewhere....The same is true of Job!

[Robert]

Quote:

Now, let's look at Job:

Job 31:1 "I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl. 2 For what is man's lot from God above, his heritage from the Almighty on high? 3 Is it not ruin for the wicked, disaster for those who do wrong? 4 Does he not see my ways and count my every step? 5 "If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit-- 6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless-- 7 if my steps have turned from the path, if my heart has been led by my eyes, or if my hands have been defiled, 8 then may others eat what I have sown, and may my crops be uprooted.

9 "If my heart has been enticed by a woman, or if I have lurked at my neighbor's door, 10 then may my wife grind another man's grain, and may other men sleep with her. 11 For that would have been shameful, a sin to be judged. 12 It is a fire that burns to Destruction; it would have uprooted my harvest. 13 "If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants when they had a grievance against me, 14 what will I do when God confronts me? What will I answer when called to account? 15 Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?

16 "If I have denied the desires of the poor or let the eyes of the widow grow weary, 17 if I have kept my bread to myself, not sharing it with the fatherless-- 18 but from my youth I reared him as would a father, and from my birth I guided the widow-- 19 if I have seen anyone perishing for lack of clothing, or a needy man without a garment, 20 and his heart did not bless me for warming him with the fleece from my sheep, 21 if I have raised my hand against the fatherless, knowing that I had influence in court, 22 then let my arm fall from the shoulder, let it be broken off at the joint. 23 For I dreaded destruction from God, and for fear of his splendor I could not do such things.

24 "If I have put my trust in gold or said to pure gold, 'You are my security,' 25 if I have rejoiced over my great wealth, the fortune my hands had gained, 26 if I have regarded the sun in its radiance or the moon moving in splendor, 27 so that my heart was secretly enticed and my hand offered them a kiss of homage, 28 then these also would be sins to be judged, for I would have been unfaithful to God on high. 29 "If I have rejoiced at my enemy's misfortune or gloated over the trouble that came to him-- 30 I have not allowed my mouth to sin by invoking a curse against his life-- 31 if the men of my household have never said, 'Who has not had his fill of Job's meat?'-- 32 but no stranger had to spend the night in the street, for my door was always open to the traveler--

33 if I have concealed my sin as men do, by hiding my guilt in my heart 34 because I so feared the crowd and so dreaded the contempt of the clans that I kept silent and would not go outside-- 35 ("Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense--let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; like a prince I would approach him.)-- 38 "if my land cries out against me and all its furrows are wet with tears, 39 if I have devoured its yield without payment or broken the spirit of its tenants, 40 then let briers come up instead of wheat and weeds instead of barley." The words of Job are ended.

So you believe he was not telling the truth? If he was telling the truth, and I believe he was, then he was following what the Apostle John said, "If you know that He is righteous, you know that that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him," 1 Jn 2:29 ESV. And "...He who practices righteousness is righteous," 1 Jn 3:7 ESV.

So since he was practicing righteousness, John says he is righteous. God said it twice he is righteous, James and Ezekiel said he is righteous, and you dare to contradict their testimony? You want me to believe your word over theirs? No, I haven't taken leave of my sanity yet.

Gerry, you couldn't see self-righteousness if is was right in front of your face because you practice it, daily....

No one who truly understands the nature of sin will dare to sit there and expound on his goodness...no one but a blind, self-righteous person full of himself.

Look at Paul before and after conversion:

Before: "As to the righteousness in the law, blameless"

After: "I count...them but dung"..."I am the chief of sinners", etc...

[Guest]

That man, Elihu, was put in the Bible for a reason, Gerry. Talk about selective reading....

Elihu was a nail biter and his mother never loved him.

[Robert]

John says he is righteous, James and Ezekiel said he is righteous, and you dare to contradict their testimony?

You must remember the book of Job is the oldest book of the Bible....By the time John, James and Ezekiel came on scene Job was indeed righteous, i.e., righteous by faith. They are referring to Job after his learning experience.

Rob

[Dr. Rich]

Read Rev. 1:1-3. You will notice the word "Bondservant(s)". Bondservants are not free from the law. They must obey everything the One Who bonded them out of their penalty. Therefore, there is no such thing as being released from the law by true bondservants.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

John says he is righteous, James and Ezekiel said he is righteous, and you dare to contradict their testimony?

You must remember the book of Job is the oldest book of the Bible....By the time John, James and Ezekiel came on scene Job was indeed righteous, i.e., righteous by faith. They are referring to Job after his learning experience.

Rob

Text please? Now, did God, Ezekiel, or James, say, "after his learning experience he became righteous?" Otherwise it's "pure speculation!"

Why not just do the sensible thing? Take the Bible as it reads unless it's using a figure of speech? Instead of looking for some fanciful meaning which you think is the product of digging deep?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

Now, let's look at Job:

Job 31:1 "I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl. 2 For what is man's lot from God above, his heritage from the Almighty on high? 3 Is it not ruin for the wicked, disaster for those who do wrong? 4 Does he not see my ways and count my every step? 5 "If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit-- 6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless-- 7 if my steps have turned from the path, if my heart has been led by my eyes, or if my hands have been defiled, 8 then may others eat what I have sown, and may my crops be uprooted.

9 "If my heart has been enticed by a woman, or if I have lurked at my neighbor's door, 10 then may my wife grind another man's grain, and may other men sleep with her. 11 For that would have been shameful, a sin to be judged. 12 It is a fire that burns to Destruction; it would have uprooted my harvest. 13 "If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants when they had a grievance against me, 14 what will I do when God confronts me? What will I answer when called to account? 15 Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?

16 "If I have denied the desires of the poor or let the eyes of the widow grow weary, 17 if I have kept my bread to myself, not sharing it with the fatherless-- 18 but from my youth I reared him as would a father, and from my birth I guided the widow-- 19 if I have seen anyone perishing for lack of clothing, or a needy man without a garment, 20 and his heart did not bless me for warming him with the fleece from my sheep, 21 if I have raised my hand against the fatherless, knowing that I had influence in court, 22 then let my arm fall from the shoulder, let it be broken off at the joint. 23 For I dreaded destruction from God, and for fear of his splendor I could not do such things.

24 "If I have put my trust in gold or said to pure gold, 'You are my security,' 25 if I have rejoiced over my great wealth, the fortune my hands had gained, 26 if I have regarded the sun in its radiance or the moon moving in splendor, 27 so that my heart was secretly enticed and my hand offered them a kiss of homage, 28 then these also would be sins to be judged, for I would have been unfaithful to God on high. 29 "If I have rejoiced at my enemy's misfortune or gloated over the trouble that came to him-- 30 I have not allowed my mouth to sin by invoking a curse against his life-- 31 if the men of my household have never said, 'Who has not had his fill of Job's meat?'-- 32 but no stranger had to spend the night in the street, for my door was always open to the traveler--

33 if I have concealed my sin as men do, by hiding my guilt in my heart 34 because I so feared the crowd and so dreaded the contempt of the clans that I kept silent and would not go outside-- 35 ("Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense--let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; like a prince I would approach him.)-- 38 "if my land cries out against me and all its furrows are wet with tears, 39 if I have devoured its yield without payment or broken the spirit of its tenants, 40 then let briers come up instead of wheat and weeds instead of barley." The words of Job are ended.

So you believe he was not telling the truth? If he was telling the truth, and I believe he was, then he was following what the Apostle John said, "If you know that He is righteous, you know that that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him," 1 Jn 2:29 ESV. And "...He who practices righteousness is righteous," 1 Jn 3:7 ESV.

So since he was practicing righteousness, John says he is righteous. God said it twice he is righteous, James and Ezekiel said he is righteous, and you dare to contradict their testimony? You want me to believe your word over theirs? No, I haven't taken leave of my sanity yet.

Gerry, you couldn't see self-righteousness if is was right i ront of your face because you practice it, daily....

No one who truly understands the nature of sin will dare to sit there and expound on his goodness...no one but a blind, self-righteous person full of himself.

Look at Paul before and after conversion:

Before: "As to the righteousness in the law, blameless"

Yeah, Pharisaical righteousness. He just checked off 613 rules and considered himself blameless.

Quote:

After: "I count...them but dung"..."I am the chief of sinners", etc...

You are so blinded/preoccupied with self-righteousness that I doubt you can recognize a righteous person when put right infront of you. Paul had every reason to consider himself the chief of sinners.

He "ravaged" the church. When he became converted, was he released from the law, "you shall not murder?" Did he CONTINUE to persecute and kill people?

G

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

why then do you make Him a liar by not believing His testimony about Job?

God's integrity is not the problem, yours is....It is you and your self-righteous theology that paints God to be a liar.

God said, "I hardened Pharaoh heart", but in another place we read, "Pharaoh hardened his own heart". Is God a liar or is it we do no understand the issues involved? Well, that's were you have a problem....You are a surface reader....

Melons and lemons.

If by digging deep you meen coming up with, in the words of Dr. Rich, "finctional" speculation, no thanks!

[Robert]

Read Rev. 1:1-3. You will notice the word "Bondservant(s)". Bondservants are not free from the law. They must obey everything the One Who bonded them out of their penalty. Therefore, there is no such thing as being released from the law by true bondservants.

If you are under law then you'll die under law....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

You must remember the book of Job is the oldest book of the Bible....By the time John, James and Ezekiel came on scene Job was indeed righteous, i.e., righteous by faith. They are referring to Job after his learning experience.

Rob [/quote']

Text please? Now, did God, Ezekiel, or James, say, "after his learning experience he became righteous?" Otherwise it's "pure speculation!"

And you are speculating that it was "before."...The difference, however, is that your speculation is just that, wild, untamed speculation with a mixture of undiluted legalism....Mine is based on the facts, not just one little sentence where God calls Job righteous.

The question is did God mean the righteousness of works or the righteousness of faith? Since Job was given over to much bragging and since Elihu said that Job justified himself before God instead of God justifying Job in Himself, it is very apparent that Job was caught up in his own self-righteousness.

Rob

[Robert]

Paul had every reason to consider himself the chief of sinners. He "ravaged" the church.

Let's get it right:

1 Tim 1:13 Even though I was once [past tense] a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

Saul thought He was doing God's will according to the Torah....He viewed Christ's claim that God was His Father as blasphemy and according to "the book of the law" such blasphemers [the followers of Christ] were to be put to death.

14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am [present tense] chief.

Paul wasn't referring to his past here. He said, in the present tense, "I am" the chief of sinners.

You see Job and Paul have similar pasts....Job claimed to be blameless, Paul did also....Both repented....Job called himself vile, Paul said that his law works were mere "dung" in comparison to the righteousness of Christ. Both man were changed....

[Just*]

For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 1 Cor 4:4

[Musicman1228]

According to the Septuigent Job was Esau's grandson. See Job 42:17.

[Gerr]

Soooo, are you saying Paul continued to persecute and stone the saints, bow to idols, maybe even fornicate even after his conversion?

[Musicman1228]

Wellll, Paul did go through a purification rite in the Temple in Jerusalem with five Greeks (that he paid for) which got him in so much trouble that he was finally arrested. He went to Jerusalem just before this happened because he IGNORED the warning of a prophet of God in Ptolemais, who bound his hands with the belt of Paul and told Paul in no uncertain terms that if he went to Jerusalem he would be killed. (Acts 21:7-14). This does not sound like someone who puts much stock in obedience to the will of God. On the contrary, is shows a great deal of arrogance and boastfulness because he thought he knew better than his God what to do and when to do it.

This is my defense to those who would examine me. Do we not have the right to eat and drink? Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? 1Cor.9:3-5. (Note his use of the 'royal' we here and other places-such arrogance.)

Paul was not married, was he? If not, then who was this 'sister wife' he took along on his journey? (In the KJV the translator used 'sister, wife'. Sister is Strong's #79, Wife/woman is Strong's #1135.) Was the sister as in 'sister so-and-so', or his sister, or a sister of someone else? Was 'wife' used as in a woman married to him, the wife of someone else, or just a woman? All this is very ambiguous.

For someone that was adamant in telling others that it is better to not have a wife, why is he so upset that he is being called on the fact that he is taking a woman along with him? Why would the disciples castigate him for taking a woman along with him that WAS his wife, especially when they did so themselves. Is Paul exhibiting some guilt because of his association with this woman?

At least in the situation with Ellen Harmon traveling unaccompanied by chaperon with James White and staying in the same houses they eventually married to stop the tongues of criticism from wagging. There was no impropriety between them but people will talk so they finally 'fell in love' and married. Can the same be said for Paul and this woman?

[Ron Amnsn]

Wellll, Paul did go through a purification rite in the Temple in Jerusalem with five Greeks (that he paid for) which got him in so much trouble that he was finally arrested. He went to Jerusalem just before this happened because he IGNORED the warning of a prophet of God in Ptolemais, who bound his hands with the belt of Paul and told Paul in no uncertain terms that if he went to Jerusalem he would be killed. (Acts 21:7-14). This does not sound like someone who puts much stock in obedience to the will of God. On the contrary, is shows a great deal of arrogance and boastfulness because he thought he knew better than his God what to do and when to do it.

[Dr. Rich]

Who knows one way or the other if the writer of Romans was ever married. He did have some nice things to say about love, but then he blew it when he wrote about not letting women say anything in the worship service.

Just wondering where the saying came from "Rob Peter to pay Paul"? Well, this post will probably get bumped for me using the word "Paul"--but isn't that what others were writing about?

Musicman, you had better be careful--people here have a nasty habit of rubbing you nose in your writings. True--they have not had the experance of reading the book called "James, the Brother of Jesus", and they probably won't either. So, if they want to be released from the marriage covenant with God--that is their choice.

[Guest]

What arrogant bluster. I believe it is you who has been released.

[Musicman1228]

Richard,

I come only in peace, and only to reveal to you my own understanding. No one, least of all you, is required to believe any of what it is that I understanding. If you believe that I am being arrogant in doing this then I am sorry. My intention is not to force you into any belief that you are not comfortable with, it is just to let you know what I have come to believe is the Truth from my own independent study.

I seek only the Truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit and the testimony of the words of Jesus Christ. I believe that we will learn much more from one another in this arena using civil discourse rather than from taking the rejection of our ideas personally. You have my permission to believe anything you want. Do I have that same permission from you?