Seeking/arriving at Truth

[Musicman1228]

Did Jesus Christ ever teach that He had come to do away with the Law?

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Matt.5:17.

Yet many will say, "Since Jesus fulfilled the law the law no longer applies". Fulfilling and destroying are not the same thing. By fulfilling the Law Jesus made it possible for our salvation because of the Law. Where there is no law there can be no vindication by the Law. Where there is no vindication there is only death by execution. All of the unrighteous, those that are not vindicated through the Law (the Covenant), will be executed at the end, after the 1000 years in Heaven. The reason that they are executed is seen at the 7th Trumpet when the Ark of the Covenant is seen in Heaven, as a testimony as to the standard against which all have been measured.

Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. Rev.11:19.

[Guest]

I was waiting for Robert to call me a heretic for that quote, which he often does when EGW goes against his grain. But he has gone to bed.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

No way I can believe these Babel of teachings expressed in these discussion threads are all inspired by the same Spirit.

And there's part of the problem....You think your theology is the only correct one....Well, I've got some bad news....

As for me, I don't think I know it all, but what I know...I know....And that is the foundation for everything else....

Your theology is built on legalism....It law based, performance based, old covenant based....That's your foundation. Hence the house is built on sand...sinking sand.

My foundation is built on "the truth as it is in Christ"!

Show me where I have ever said that mine is the only correct one?

But there is ONE thing I am absolutely sure of - yours is built not on the rock of His word but on quicksand. You can claim to be "in Christ" all you want. Even Satan claims to be an "angel of light" when in fact his message of light is darkness. That is the mystery of LAWLESSNESS. Who claims to be released from obedience to the law that is the very foundation of God's gov't? You are down on sin and specially good at discerning self-righteousness even when none is there, but the moment obedience to God's commandments is brought up to get rid of the very sin you rile against, then you cry legalism. You are against sin but at the same time against righteous living. You can't have both. The Bible has a word for such confusion - it's called?

[Stan]

Gerry, he will not be able to respond as he is on a 'timeout' on here.

[Gerr]

Quote:

So the only cure for legalism is to lay it on extra thick with law, law, law....That's the reason God gave the Old Covenant - to open the eyes of the self-righteous. Hence it was designed to place the glory of men in the dust and do for him what he could not do for himself, namely save him in Christ Jesus....

God gave the Law to make them sick of law and cure them of legalism? And when Christ gave the law of love, did He give that law to cure people of the law of love?

You and your god must have a sick mind!

[Gerr]

Sorry, I didn't know that "time out" was now.

[Stan]

It is a 90 day Sabbatical for him.

[skyblue888]

Christ by His perfect obedience demonstrated to the universe that human beings could keep the commandments of God. {CTr 192.2}

Amen! what is CTr Richard?

sky

[skyblue888]

True sanctification means perfect love, perfect obedience, perfect conformity to the will of God. We are to be sanctified to God through obedience to the truth. {AA 565.1}

Another great quote Richard! Thanks. Here is one that is very similar:

"The religion of Christ means more than the forgiveness of sin; it means taking away our sins, and filling the vacuum with the graces of the Holy Spirit. It means divine illumination, rejoicing in God. It means a heart emptied of self, and blessed with the abiding presence of Christ. When Christ reigns in the soul, there is purity, freedom from sin. The glory, the fullness, the completeness of the gospel plan is fulfilled in the life. The acceptance of the Saviour brings a glow of perfect peace, perfect love, perfect assurance. The beauty and fragrance of the character of Christ revealed in the life testifies that God has indeed sent His Son into the world to be its Saviour." C.O.L.419,420.

sky

[Twilight]

It is a 90 day Sabbatical for him.

It should be a little "calmer" for a while. :-)

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Robert

And there's part of the problem....You think your theology is the only correct one....Well' date=' I've got some bad news....

As for me, I don't think I know it all, but what I know...I know....And that is the foundation for everything else....

Your theology is built on legalism....It law based, performance based, old covenant based....That's your foundation. Hence the house is built on sand...sinking sand.

My foundation is built on "the truth as it is in Christ"! [/quote']

Show me where I have ever said that mine is the only correct one?

But there is ONE thing I am absolutely sure of - yours is built not on the rock of His word but on quicksand. You can claim to be "in Christ" all you want. Even Satan claims to be an "angel of light" when in fact his message of light is darkness. That is the mystery of LAWLESSNESS. Who claims to be released from obedience to the law that is the very foundation of God's gov't? You are down on sin and specially good at discerning self-righteousness even when none is there, but the moment obedience to God's commandments is brought up to get rid of the very sin you rile against, then you cry legalism. You are against sin but at the same time against righteous living. You can't have both. The Bible has a word for such confusion - it's called?

Very well said Gerry!

Christians are not released from obedience to the law but from the condemnation of the law for when Christ is formed within the law is magnified and made honorable. Isaiah 42:21.

sky

[Musicman1228]

Maybe we should stick to defining a method of searching for truth rather than defining truth itself, there are plenty of other threads that do that.

How do you arrive at your particular understanding of a text? What criteria do you use to assess and weigh the various options in the meaning of a passage of Scripture? Can you define your method for coming to your conclusions about what was said as opposed to what was meant?

I don't pretend to have the patent on how to find Truth. The more I can learn about how to go about doing that the closer I feel I can come to knowing and understanding what God wants. Is there a method of Bible study like that of the scientific method that will provide definable and repeatable results so we can all come to the same result, the same truth? If we do that won't we be doing what Jesus Christ desired for his disciples, becoming unified in knowledge, purpose and spirit?

[Gerr]

Perhaps I'm naive, but I take what people say at face value unless there is good reason not to. I take the same approach to Scripture. For starters, that's rule #1 for me.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Christ by His perfect obedience demonstrated to the universe that human beings could keep the commandments of God. {CTr 192.2}

Amen! what is CTr Richard?

sky

Christ Triumphant. 1999. Hagerstown, MD: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1999. 384 pp. [CTr]

[skyblue888]

Thanks Richard. :)

[skyblue888]

Maybe we should stick to defining a method of searching for truth rather than defining truth itself, there are plenty of other threads that do that.

How do you arrive at your particular understanding of a text? What criteria do you use to assess and weigh the various options in the meaning of a passage of Scripture? Can you define your method for coming to your conclusions about what was said as opposed to what was meant?

I don't pretend to have the patent on how to find Truth. The more I can learn about how to go about doing that the closer I feel I can come to knowing and understanding what God wants. Is there a method of Bible study like that of the scientific method that will provide definable and repeatable results so we can all come to the same result, the same truth? If we do that won't we be doing what Jesus Christ desired for his disciples, becoming unified in knowledge, purpose and spirit?

Yes there is a divinely revealed, true scientific and spiritual method the Lord has given us and that we must use if we are to arrive at the truth! First the Bible says that the Scriptures are not subject to any private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20). The Bible is its own interpreter. Therefore we must "compare spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor.2:13) which simply means that one passage of Scripture explains another passage and so on and so forth. And, for those who believe in the Testimonies of God's Spirit, the same principles apply. The Testimonies are not subject to any private interpretation. They are their own interpreter. We are to compare statement with statement for one statement explains another statement.

So 2 Peter 1:20 and 1 Cor.2:13 establish the principle of interpretation for the Bible. To these could be added 2 Cor.13:1 and Isaiah 28:13.

"Consider what I say and may the Lord give you understanding in all things." 2 Tim.2:7. And "But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things." 1 John 2:20,27.

The divine counsel regarding the study of the Testimonies and of the Scriptures: "The Testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42.

your thoughts,,,

sky

[Woody]

I've said it before here, but it's relevant to this thread:

"Trust those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it" - Andre Gide

Good one Bravus. I had not seen this before. I am going to save this for future use.

[Woody]

Quote:

2 Chron. 7:16 "For now have I chosen and sanctified this house"

Quote:

Lev. 8:30 "And Moses took of the anointing oil, and of the blood which [was] upon the altar, and sprinkled [it] upon Aaron, [and] upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon his sons' garments with him; and sanctified Aaron, [and] his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him. "

Quote:

Num. 7:1 "And it came to pass on the day that Moses had fully set up the tabernacle, and had anointed it, and sanctified it, and all the instruments thereof, both the altar and all the vessels thereof, and had anointed them, and sanctified them."

Quote:

Num. 8:17 " For all the firstborn of the children of Israel [are] mine, [both] man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself. "

Quote:

1 Sam. 7:1 "And the men of Kirjathjearim came, and fetched up the ark of the LORD, and brought it into the house of Abinadab in the hill, and sanctified Eleazar his son to keep the ark of the LORD."

Quote:

1 Sam. 16:5 "And he said, Peaceably: I am come to sacrifice unto the LORD: sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice. And he sanctified Jesse and his sons, and called them to the sacrifice."

Quote:

2 Chron 7:16 "For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually."

Quote:

2 Chron 29:15 "And they gathered their brethren, and sanctified themselves, and came, according to the commandment of the king, by the words of the LORD, to cleanse the house of the LORD."

Quote:

Neh. 3:1 "Then Eliashib the high priest rose up with his brethren the priests, and they builded the sheep gate; they sanctified it, and set up the doors of it; even unto the tower of Meah they sanctified it, unto the tower of Hananeel. "

Quote:

Job 1:4 -5 "And his sons went and feasted [in their] houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. And it was so, when the days of [their] feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them."

Quote:

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Quote:

John 17:19 " And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth."

Quote:

John 10:36 "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? "

Quote:

Acts 26:18 " To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. "

Quote:

1 Cor. 6:11 "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Quote:

Heb. 2:11 "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren"

Quote:

Heb. 10:10 "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]."

Quote:

Heb. 10:14 "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Quote:

Jude 1:1 "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father"

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

I've said it before here, but it's relevant to this thread:

"Trust those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it" - Andre Gide

Good one Bravus. I had not seen this before. I am going to save this for future use.

Andre Gide is a perfect case in point: he taught that he had found the truth in atheism, evolution, and communism, and he defended both Joseph Stalin and the practice of homosexuality (see his book, Corydon). The irony is that he was once a protestant Christian and a believer in the Bible.

[Woody]

His point is still well taken.

[John317]

In all of those verses, the word "sanctified" is being used to mean "set apart for God's use." But notice that not everyone is sanctified. God is the one who sanctifies us, and he doesn't sanctify the wicked and those who reject him.

John 17: 19 says we are sanctified through the truth, and the Scriptures are the truth.

Acts 26: 18 says that we are sanctified by faith in Christ.

The Bible speaks of sanctification in two ways: we are sanctified (or set apart) by God the moment we are justified (or put right with God). When people accept Christ by faith and ask Christ into their lives, at that moment God sets them apart for Himself and for His service.

But it also views sanctification as a process that continues throughout the entire lifetime of the believer. We should, the longer we live, become more and more "set apart for God's use." Christ seeks rulership of every aspect of our lives.

[Woody]

I guess that both views would be correct then. What do you know. Now that doesn't happen often. Praise The Lord.

[skyblue888]

What is the point? that the truth cannot be known? It is true that there are many confusing voices today even within Adventism in order to make of none effect the message that God has for this time. The same thing happened in the days of Christ. Many had fallen prey to various independent ministries or off-shoots and were disillusioned before Christ began His ministry and those who had followed the established church blindly were very skeptical of any "new light." The enemy was very pleased with what he had accomplished so much that when Jesus showed up on the scene the majority thought to themselves that He was just another false teacher in the line of many false teachers who had proclaimed heretofore that they and they alone had the truth. In all of this the enemy was counterfeiting the true message so that when Jesus would teach the true message very few only would accept it and be sanctified by it.

There is nothing new under the sun.

But those who are true seekers after truth will know the truth and they will be made free.

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."

sky

[Twilight]

Quote:

2 Chron. 7:16 "For now have I chosen and sanctified this house"

Quote:

Lev. 8:30 "And Moses took of the anointing oil, and of the blood which [was] upon the altar, and sprinkled [it] upon Aaron, [and] upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon his sons' garments with him; and sanctified Aaron, [and] his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him. "

Quote:

Num. 7:1 "And it came to pass on the day that Moses had fully set up the tabernacle, and had anointed it, and sanctified it, and all the instruments thereof, both the altar and all the vessels thereof, and had anointed them, and sanctified them."

Quote:

Num. 8:17 " For all the firstborn of the children of Israel [are] mine, [both] man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself. "

Quote:

1 Sam. 7:1 "And the men of Kirjathjearim came, and fetched up the ark of the LORD, and brought it into the house of Abinadab in the hill, and sanctified Eleazar his son to keep the ark of the LORD."

Quote:

1 Sam. 16:5 "And he said, Peaceably: I am come to sacrifice unto the LORD: sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice. And he sanctified Jesse and his sons, and called them to the sacrifice."

Quote:

2 Chron 7:16 "For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually."

Quote:

2 Chron 29:15 "And they gathered their brethren, and sanctified themselves, and came, according to the commandment of the king, by the words of the LORD, to cleanse the house of the LORD."

Quote:

Neh. 3:1 "Then Eliashib the high priest rose up with his brethren the priests, and they builded the sheep gate; they sanctified it, and set up the doors of it; even unto the tower of Meah they sanctified it, unto the tower of Hananeel. "

Quote:

Job 1:4 -5 "And his sons went and feasted [in their] houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. And it was so, when the days of [their] feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them."

Quote:

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Quote:

John 17:19 " And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth."

Quote:

John 10:36 "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? "

Quote:

Acts 26:18 " To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. "

Quote:

1 Cor. 6:11 "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Quote:

Heb. 2:11 "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren"

Quote:

Heb. 10:10 "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]."

Quote:

Heb. 10:14 "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Quote:

Jude 1:1 "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father"

Why not just plainly state your position Redwood?

Do you believe that ALL mankind are sanctified and that ALL are going to be saved because of this?

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Good one Bravus. I had not seen this before. I am going to save this for future use.

[/quote']

Andre Gide is a perfect case in point: he taught that he had found the truth in atheism, evolution, and communism, and he defended both Joseph Stalin and the practice of homosexuality (see his book, Corydon). The irony is that he was once a protestant Christian and a believer in the Bible.

Ah... Thanks John317 (I wish you would supply a name or pseudonym my friend, it does not seem right calling you a bible reference).

I think it is more a case that the truth finds us, if we are not hiding in some error...

:-)