Seeking/arriving at Truth

[Twilight]

I could be wrong but I don't remember saying that we don't need faith, just the same as I have never said we don't need grace. I just don't believe either operates as defined by Paul and modern Christianity.

Let me see if I can be clear as to what faith and grace mean in the light of what Jesus taught to his disciples.

I'll start with faith. When I said that the common definition of faith is this idea that we need to believe without full and complete truth I meant that the Christian church believes that as long as you have faith you don't really need to know the truth, and as a result truth becomes (in this regard) nebulous, ethereal, and ephemeral. The context is salvation by grace through faith. As I see it this type of faith can cause a person to believe that they are saved as soon as they say the sinner's prayer, and that beyond that there is really nothing they need do because Jesus did it all for them. Robert and Richard have carefully, completely and very well pointed out that in their view salvation by grace through faith removes the need for any Law or standard against which people need be measured. I personally see this as a distortion of what Jesus taught to his disciples.

The kind of faith espoused by the modern Christian church as promoted by Paul allows a person the option of believing a lie as if it were the truth, because no actual proof is necessary to confirm that belief. In doing this they assume (because this is what is taught in church) that by the grace of God they have put on the robe of Christ's righteousness which covers their sins, with the net result that they no longer have to worry about sinning because they are no longer under Law but they are saved by grace. This is circular reasoning where the answer brings you back to the question without really answering it.

Grace in this form is worthless without faith. As an astute observer of human nature Paul understood this, which is why he was ready to accept this type of salvation at face value without proof and corroborating evidence as to what Jesus really taught. It is my view based on extensive research in Scripture and other worthy sources that the kind of grace that allows a person to keep on sinning with impunity based on the concept that the Covenant of the Kingdom of Heaven no longer applies after the death of Jesus Christ because it was nailed to the cross is a perversion of the grace that God sent Jesus to earth to implement.

So what is that grace that Jesus came to reveal and implement by paying the penalty (by His death on the cross) for the disobedience of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Just this; You must be in the Kingdom of Heaven to be saved (John 3:5). To get into the Kingdom you must have your sins forgiven and your penalty paid. You must confess your sin before the Father (justification, 1John 1:9) and enter into a program whereby you work to eliminate sin from your life (sanctification, John 17:17-19). The end result of this process is righteousness (Matt.13:49,1John 2:29,Rev.14:4-5, Rev.19:8). If you do not complete this sanctification process because you die before you have accomplished righteousness THEN THE GRACE OF GOD carries you over the second death to eternal life (Rev.3:21, Matt.25:10).

There is such a thing as the grace of God, it is that grace that assures that those that are undergoing the process of sanctification whether they live or die on earth will be preserved for eternity. This type of grace does not require faith to accomplish, it requires trust, truth, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to bring you into that the truth. This requires that the individual to conquer in the same way Jesus Christ conquered (Rev.3:21). That conquering is the overcoming of sin and becoming righteous, through the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

You don't have to believe this just because I do. I do urge you to look at this with an open mind and not dismiss it out of hand just because I said it. Everything you read is backed by Scripture, and not just any Scripture but the words of Jesus Christ.

This is where I stopped reading:

as defined by Paul and modern Christianity.

[oldsailor29]

The faith we must have is simple. We simply must believe Jesus, who walked here on earth among men, is God in the flesh. We cannot prove it. That is why it takes faith to believe it. We must believe it merely because God said it.

God, the Son told the angels he was the creator. Those who didn't believe what He said were cast out, then later He proved to them he was the creator, by creating in their presence.

Jesus told us He is God. After it is determined who believes what He said and who doesn't, it is likely He will show everyone that what He has said is true. I believe Jesus is God, and I follow Him and I believe that is why I will be a citizen of His heavenly kingdom. Whoever else He saves is not for me to say. I know He wants to save all of His creation. And I have to believe the final ending will be a happy one for all, including God.

[Gerr]

Quote:

The Faith of Jesus is the Faith in the Merits of Christ according to the SOP.

I agree with much of what you post, but I am puzzled by the above statement. If the faith of Jesus is the faith in the merits of Christ, sounds like His faith then was based on His own merit?

[Gerr]

Quote:

I am absolutely persuaded that no rebels will be in the kingdom.

Ahh Shucks. I'm a rebel ...

You can't be a rebel IF you have repented & been converted.

[Twilight]

Quote:

The Faith of Jesus is the Faith in the Merits of Christ according to the SOP.

I agree with much of what you post, but I am puzzled by the above statement. If the faith of Jesus is the faith in the merits of Christ, sounds like His faith then was based on His own merit?

Consider these quotes my friend, (it surprised me when I saw it).

But the faith of Jesus is not us having "Faith like Jesus".

But "Total Faith "in" Jesus" to save us..

If that makes sense?

Here are the quotes:

The soul-saving message, the third angel's message, is the message to be given to the world. The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus are both important, immensely important, and must be given with equal force and power. The first part of the message has been dwelt upon mostly, the last part casually. The faith of Jesus is not comprehended. We must talk it, we must live it, we must pray it, and educate the people to bring this part of the message into their home life. . . . {RC 82.5}

"The faith of Jesus." It is talked of, but not understood. What constitutes the faith of Jesus, that belongs to the third angel's message? Jesus becoming our sin-bearer that He might become our sin-pardoning Saviour. He was treated as we deserve to be treated. He came to our world and took our sins that we might take His righteousness. And faith in the ability of Christ to save us amply and fully and entirely is the faith of Jesus. {3SM 172.3}

This changed my thinking when I first read this the other day... :-)

[Musicman1228]

The faith we must have is simple. We simply must believe Jesus, who walked here on earth among men, is God in the flesh. We cannot prove it. That is why it takes faith to believe it. We must believe it merely because God said it.

God, the Son told the angels he was the creator. Those who didn't believe what He said were cast out, then later He proved to them he was the creator, by creating in their presence.

Jesus told us He is God. After it is determined who believes what He said and who doesn't, it is likely He will show everyone that what He has said is true. I believe Jesus is God, and I follow Him and I believe that is why I will be a citizen of His heavenly kingdom. Whoever else He saves is not for me to say. I know He wants to save all of His creation. And I have to believe the final ending will be a happy one for all, including God.

I am very interested in the 2nd paragraph, Oldsailor29. From where did this information come? I don't think I have ever seen this in the Bible.

Good point, Gerry. If Jesus based His spiritual identity on the faith of Christ then all that is being said is that Jesus believed in Himself. That doesn't help me, because if I tried the same thing (having faith in myself) I would not be able to stand against anything Satan sends against me.

I will grant that we all start out our sanctification process in faith; we have accepted and acknowledged that Jesus paid our penalty and we are justified, we confess our sin and as a result He is 'faithful' and just to forgive us our sins and CLEANS us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. This cleansing is the process of sanctification which continues to remove sin from our lives until we become as righteous as He is. Being justified through Jesus Christ does not automatically make us righteous, that can be the work of a lifetime (EGW).

We begin this process in faith because we have no first hand experience and knowledge that Jesus Christ will actually do what He said. As we progress on this path of sanctification our trust in Jesus builds because our knowledge, understanding and relationship with Him continues to grow. This process begins with our brothers and sisters in Jesus nurturing us and guiding us through the power of the Holy Spirit, helping us to see the pitfalls in the path and avoid them. As we grow stronger the path narrows until finally we are strong enough in the truth to stand on our own because the Holy Spirit is fully invested in our lives. The path has narrowed to the place where only one person can walk at a time, and it is at this point that the believer has the strength of the character of Jesus Christ that the Holy Spirit has developed in them to walk in complete trust in the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Trust replaces faith as the method of operation in the soul of the follower of Jesus Christ.

This is an imperfect metaphor with all sorts of holes, but the basic point is that when Jesus was here on earth He KNEW who He was. After His experience in the Temple at age 12 He didn't need anyone assuring Him that He was the Son of God, He knew who His Father was because He declared to His birth mother and step father, "I must be about my Father's business."

This is where we must be in order to fully exhibit the character of Christ. Developing His character takes time and effort and is the purpose of the process of sanctification. If grace operates as we have been told by Paul then there is no need to develop the character of Christ because it is imputed to you by grace through faith, and once it is done it is done.

The Robe of the righteousness of Jesus Christ is His character. If you put on this robe over your robe of filthy rags by faith (as in the way grace operates according to Paul) then you never actually have to develop and implant the character of Jesus Christ in your life. His righteousness then becomes only a shell, a disguise that masks what is still under it, the sin that has not been removed. My opinion is that the idea that the righteousness of Christ can be imputed to a sinner in such a way as to inject righteousness all at once into their character, causing them to become holy without going through the slow arduous process of replacing the lies in their life with the truth is one of the most insidious and pernicious lies that Satan has ever produced. It is designed and has been very successful in minimizing the true growth of the character of Christ in His Kingdom, which causes them to forget who they are and what they have been placed on this earth to do.

Sin is evil, and if sin has not been eradicated from your life then even if you say you have put on the robe of Christ's righteousness you are still a sinner, and NO sinner will be in the eternal Kingdom of Heaven.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

The Faith of Jesus is the Faith in the Merits of Christ according to the SOP.

I agree with much of what you post, but I am puzzled by the above statement. If the faith of Jesus is the faith in the merits of Christ, sounds like His faith then was based on His own merit?

Consider these quotes my friend, (it surprised me when I saw it).

But the faith of Jesus is not us having "Faith like Jesus".

But "Total Faith "in" Jesus" to save us..

If that makes sense?

Here are the quotes:

The soul-saving message, the third angel's message, is the message to be given to the world. The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus are both important, immensely important, and must be given with equal force and power. The first part of the message has been dwelt upon mostly, the last part casually. The faith of Jesus is not comprehended. We must talk it, we must live it, we must pray it, and educate the people to bring this part of the message into their home life. . . . {RC 82.5}

"The faith of Jesus." It is talked of, but not understood. What constitutes the faith of Jesus, that belongs to the third angel's message? Jesus becoming our sin-bearer that He might become our sin-pardoning Saviour. He was treated as we deserve to be treated. He came to our world and took our sins that we might take His righteousness. And faith in the ability of Christ to save us amply and fully and entirely is the faith of Jesus. {3SM 172.3}

[

This changed my thinking when I first read this the other day... :-)

The faith of Jesus, as I understand it, is His complete trust in the Father. That is the kind of faith I am expected to have. And complete faith/trust in the Father includes, of course, our total trust/confidence in the provision He has made in His Son dying for our sins.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

The Faith of Jesus is the Faith in the Merits of Christ according to the SOP.

I agree with much of what you post, but I am puzzled by the above statement. If the faith of Jesus is the faith in the merits of Christ, sounds like His faith then was based on His own merit?

Consider these quotes my friend, (it surprised me when I saw it).

But the faith of Jesus is not us having "Faith like Jesus".

But "Total Faith "in" Jesus" to save us..

If that makes sense?

Here are the quotes:

The soul-saving message, the third angel's message, is the message to be given to the world. The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus are both important, immensely important, and must be given with equal force and power. The first part of the message has been dwelt upon mostly, the last part casually. The faith of Jesus is not comprehended. We must talk it, we must live it, we must pray it, and educate the people to bring this part of the message into their home life. . . . {RC 82.5}

"The faith of Jesus." It is talked of, but not understood. What constitutes the faith of Jesus, that belongs to the third angel's message? Jesus becoming our sin-bearer that He might become our sin-pardoning Saviour. He was treated as we deserve to be treated. He came to our world and took our sins that we might take His righteousness. And faith in the ability of Christ to save us amply and fully and entirely is the faith of Jesus. {3SM 172.3}

This changed my thinking when I first read this the other day... :-)

Excellent statements Mark and the last one must be compared with other statements like this one:

"Unless he makes it his life business to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept the merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed upon Jesus." T.M.93.

So Christ will save us only as we appropriate His merits to ourselves, by claiming them, knowing it is our privilege to claim them on a daily basis. It is the work of our life time and then God will do His part which is to do for us that which it is not possible for us to do for ourselves.

sky

[Musicman1228]

Gerry wrote, "The faith of Jesus, as I understand it, is His complete trust in the Father. That is the kind of faith I am expected to have. And complete faith/trust in the Father includes, of course, our total trust/confidence in the provision He has made in His Son dying for our sins."

Well put. Jesus TRUSTED His Father. So you just defined to term 'faith' as 'trust', and I agree. But there is a semantic difference between the two in common usage, and this is what I wanted to point out. To most Christians faith is not trust, because trust is built on the intimate knowledge and understanding of God and who He is, and that is something that many Christians do not feel the need to take the time to learn. Faith to them is like walking into a pitch black cave without a flashlight hoping that God will get them through to the other side without them falling into a deep hole.

Is there a difference between faith and trust?

[skyblue888]

"God will accept everyone that comes to Him trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified Saviour. Love springs up in the heart. There may be no ecstacy of feeling but there is an abiding, peaceful trust." 1 S.M.354.

This is the Gospel in a nut-shell for the love of God shed abroad in our hearts through faith in the merits of Christ is the whole law and the prophets.

Trusting in the merits of Christ and in the merits of Christ alone for our salvation is faith, even great faith.

sky

[Musicman1228]

Sky, where does Jesus Christ say in His own words that all we need do to be saved is trust in His merits by faith?

[Twilight]

Sky, where does Jesus Christ say in His own words that all we need do to be saved is trust in His merits by faith?

"No one can come unto the Father, but by Me." (paraphrase)

[skyblue888]

Sky, where does Jesus Christ say in His own words that all we need do to be saved is trust in His merits by faith?

It is written all over the place! It is all over the place but we do not see it. The blood that was shed is of value beyond estimate. I am sure we can all agree on that. So if that blood is of value beyond estimate then it has merits, does it not? so much that we are to hold in abomination all other merits save those of Jesus.

The Reformers came to understand this. "Lord, we had devised for ourselves many useless follies, but You have placed Your word before me like a torch, and You have touched my heart, in order that I may hold in abomination all other merits save those of Jesus." The Great Controversy, p.221.

To come unto the Father through Him means through His merits alone for "There is salvation for you but only through the merits of Jesus Christ." T.M.97.

We are to present this to adventists and non-adventists alike. In fact it is the very message that God has commanded to be given to the world and which is to be attended with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in large measure but it must be proclaimed to the church first in demonstration of the Spirit and power of God. See T.M.92.

sky

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

God, the Son told the angels he was the creator. Those who didn't believe what He said were cast out, then later He proved to them he was the creator, by creating in their presence.

I am very interested in the 2nd paragraph, Oldsailor29. From where did this information come? I don't think I have ever seen this in the Bible.

Thank you for noticing, Musicman1228.

Sin began due to a misunderstanding of the nature of God, and that's where it will end. Lucifer thought God was just another divine being, like himself and the others in heaven around him. He thought God was just older, had been around longer, than anyone else. That is what he told all the others. He looked around at all the developing life, and decided to believe they had all evolved. God told them He had created them, but Lucifer didn't believe Him. He could not see how that could happen. In our modern language we would say Lucifer was an evolutionist and an existentialist. He didn't know God is infinite. He had no inkling of anything infinite. The infinite had to be accepted on faith. I think that is how it works. Faith in God is necessary in order to be accepted in His heavenly kingdom. So Lucifer rebelled, claiming that God was a tyrant who made up his laws in order to hold everyone else back from achieving their rightful glorious state. This is just a logical explanation of the fall of Lucifer and a third of the angels. It is the beginning of Lucifer's deceptions. Lots of people are still being deceived by the same lies. Lucifer is still telling people we were not created by God, but that we evolved. He knows better, but it was such a good lie the first time, he is still using it. And people still believe it. So, this is my conclusion, that we should have faith in God and follow Him.

[skyblue888]

Lucifer aspired to power that was the prerogative of Christ alone and because of that the perfect harmony of Heaven was broken. To dispute the supremany of Christ, thus impeaching the wisdom and love of the Creator, had become the purpose of this prince of angels:

"Though all his glory was from God, this mighty angel came to regard it as pertaining to himself. Not content with his position, though honored above the heavenly host, he ventured to covet homage due alone to the Creator. Instead of seeking to make God supreme in the affections and allegiance of all created beings, it was his endeavor to secure their service and loyalty to himself. And coveting the glory with which the infinite Father had invested His Son, this prince of angels aspired to power that was the prerogative of Christ alone.

Now the perfect harmony of heaven was broken. Lucifer's disposition to serve himself instead of his Creator aroused a feeling of apprehension when observed by those who considered that the glory of God should be supreme. In heavenly council the angels pleaded with Lucifer. The Son of God presented before him the greatness, the goodness, and the justice of the Creator, and the sacred, unchanging nature of His law. God Himself had established the order of heaven; and in departing from it, Lucifer would dishonor his Maker and bring ruin upon himself. But the warning, given in infinite love and mercy, only aroused a spirit of resistance. Lucifer allowed his jealousy of Christ to prevail, and became the more determined.

To dispute the supremacy of the Son of God, thus impeaching the wisdom and love of the Creator, had become the purpose of this prince of angels. To this object he was about to bend the energies of that master mind, which, next to Christ's, was first among the hosts of God. But He who would have the will of all His creatures free, left none unguarded to the bewildering sophistry by which rebellion would seek to justify itself. Before the great contest should open, all were to have a clear presentation of His will, whose wisdom and goodness were the spring of all their joy.

The King of the universe summoned the heavenly hosts before Him, that in their presence He might set forth the true position of His Son and show the relation He sustained to all created beings. The Son of God shared the Father's throne, and the glory of the eternal, self-existent One encircled both. About the throne gathered the holy angels, a vast, unnumbered throng--'ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands' (Revelation 5:11.), the most exalted angels, as ministers and subjects, rejoicing in the light that fell upon them from the presence of the Deity. Before the assembled inhabitants of heaven the King declared that none but Christ, the Only Begotten of God, could fully enter into His purposes, and to Him it was committed to execute the mighty counsels of His will. The Son of God had wrought the Father's will in the creation of all the hosts of heaven; and to Him, as well as to God, their homage and allegiance were due. Christ was still to exercise divine power, in the creation of the earth and its inhabitants. But in all this He would not seek power or exaltation for Himself contrary to God's plan, but would exalt the Father's glory and execute His purposes of beneficence and love.

The angels joyfully acknowledged the supremacy of Christ, and prostrating themselves before Him, poured out their love and adoration. Lucifer bowed with them, but in his heart there was a strange, fierce conflict. Truth, justice, and loyalty were struggling against envy and jealousy. The influence of the holy angels seemed for a time to carry him with them. As songs of praise ascended in melodious strains, swelled by thousands of glad voices, the spirit of evil seemed vanquished; unutterable love thrilled his entire being; his soul went out, in harmony with the sinless worshippers, in love to the Father and the Son. But again he was filled with pride in his own glory. His desire for supremacy returned, and envy of Christ was once more indulged. The high honors conferred upon Lucifer were not appreciated as God's special gift, and therefore, called forth no gratitude to his Creator. He glorified in his brightness and exaltation and aspired to be equal with God. He was beloved and reverenced by the heavenly host, angels delighted to execute his commands, and he was clothed with wisdom and glory above them all. Yet the Son of God was exalted above him, as one in power and authority with the Father. He shared the Father's counsels, while Lucifer did not thus enter into the purposes of God. "Why," questioned this mighty angel, "should Christ have the supremacy? Why is He honored above Lucifer?" P.P.35-37.

sky

[phkrause]

I think Richard that Robert doesn't go to church anymore, but I don't think that he has given up is membership voluntarily. I know quite a few SDAs that don't attend church but are still on the books. I think sometimes he says he happy to be out of the church but he has not replaced it with another either. I think secretly he is a closet Adventist still.

pk

[Gerr]

Sky, where does Jesus Christ say in His own words that all we need do to be saved is trust in His merits by faith?

Try John 3:16.

[wayfinder]

Try John 3:19-21.

[skyblue888]

Paraphrase of John 3:16

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever should come to Him trusting wholly in the merits of the blood shed for him upon Calvary's cross should not perish but receive the Holy Spirit for the Holy Spirit received into the heart by faith is the beginning of eternal life. See D.A.388, end of 2nd parg.

"Though millions who need to be healed will reject His offered mercy, not one who trusts in His merits will be left to perish." P.P.432.

"We can do nothing of ourselves. In all our helpless unworthiness we must trust in the merits of the crucified and risen Saviour. None will ever perish while doing this." P.P.203.

sky

[wayfinder]

skyblue888,

John 3:11-15 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

Jesus is saying that it is His words (testimony) that we must believe in. No one has ascended into heaven to hear the truth and testify to what they have heard so people on earth can hear it, except the One who came from heaven Who testifies to the truth. All who believe in His testimony shall have eternal life.

John 10:26-28 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

[Woody]

None of us have all truth. But many do have the Truth that matters ... and that is the crucified Saviour in Jesus Christ. The rest is gravy.

[skyblue888]

"And when the Holy Spirit shall come into your hearts, to impress the truth into your souls, you will not let it go easily. You have gained such an experience in searching the Scriptures that every point is established. And it is important that you continually search the Scriptures." F.W.56,57.

See 1 John 2:20,27.

sky

[Musicman1228]

If we can do nothing ourselves then why did Jesus say that we need to overcome as He did? Rev.3:21. Is overcoming defined somewhere as not doing anything?

[Guest]

Because the way he did it is the same way we must do it. Through the power of the Holy Spirit. He did not use his divinity to overcome.

[skyblue888]

Because the way he did it is the same way we must do it. Through the power of the Holy Spirit. He did not use his divinity to overcome.

Amen!

"In Christ dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. This is why, although He was tempted in all points like as we are, He stood before the world, from His first entrance into it, untainted by corruption, though surrounded by it. Are we not also to become partakers of that fullness, and is it not thus, and thus only that we can overcome as He overcame?" E.G. White, MS 16, 1890 or E.G.W. Bible Commentary, Vol.7a,351.

In Jesus the man of Nazareth dwelt all the fullness of the Spirit because as a man He was in subjection to God as we may be.

"Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was." D.A.664.

This is the true glory to which the Gospel is calling each and everyone one of us but if we do not believe, how can we attain to righteousness?

"Subjection to God is restoration to one's self,--to the true glory and dignity of man." D.A.466

"Subjection to the word of God means the restoration of one's self." T.M.396.

sky