Seeking/arriving at Truth

[Musicman1228]

skyblue and Gerry,

Good, this is the stuff I'm looking for; your ideas about a concrete method of rightly dividing the word of God.

If I am hearing you correctly you are both saying that there are some things that we just must take on faith, things that are beyond question to the Christian. But what about those people that do not hold the Bible with the same regard as do you? If we tell a sceptic that they must have 'faith' in order to 'believe' in Jesus Christ they will laugh us into the next county. Can anything be proven by faith alone?

Your thoughts.

[Guest]

I can prove that Jesus had faith.

[Woody]

Quote:

Why not just plainly state your position Redwood?

Do you believe that ALL mankind are sanctified and that ALL are going to be saved because of this?

Mark

The point being Mark ... we are not saved by the sanctification that we may or may not have in our lives.

[Musicman1228]

Wonderful, Richard. I would be happy for you to do so.

[Guest]

Wonderful, Richard. I would be happy for you to do so.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

[Guest]

Why do you try to do away with faith? Jesus didn't.

And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. Mar 11:22

And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Mat 17:20

[Twilight]

Quote:

Why not just plainly state your position Redwood?

Do you believe that ALL mankind are sanctified and that ALL are going to be saved because of this?

Mark

The point being Mark ... we are not saved by the sanctification that we may or may not have in our lives.

You have not answered a simple question:

Will those that have resisted God be saved?

[Woody]

Quote:

Will those that have resisted God be saved?

I can't know. I don't know their hearts. But I am confident that for some .... the answer will be yes.

[Musicman1228]

Richard,

The word for 'faith' in Rev.14:12 is 'pistis' the meaning of which goes a lot deeper than just 'faith', which is a secondary meaning.

Pistis-Strong's 4102;persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God, especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. Rev.14:12.

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev.12:17.

According to this definition the word 'faith' does not begin to cover the true meaning. From reading the Greek definition I get the idea that the faith that is spoken of is not about our faith IN Jesus but about having the same level of faith AS Jesus. That makes sense to me especially when I compare the Rev. 14 text with the Rev.12 text.

Jesus had full confidence in His Father and in the Truth. He knew who He was and who His Father was. He had no ambiguity about what He was here on earth to do. That is the same type of 'faith' that we must have if we are to win through to the end of the Great Tribulation and gain eternal life. There is nothing insecure or unsecured in the 'faith' that Jesus displayed. More properly it might be better to use the word 'trust' in its place, given the full meaning of the Greek word pistis.

The common definition of faith is this idea that we need to believe without full and complete truth. In this regard faith is nebulous, ethereal, and ephemeral, believing without proof in things hoped for and things unseen. If there is one thing of which I have full confidence it is that this does not describe Jesus and His relationship with His Father.

[Gerr]

skyblue and Gerry,

Good, this is the stuff I'm looking for; your ideas about a concrete method of rightly dividing the word of God.

If I am hearing you correctly you are both saying that there are some things that we just must take on faith, things that are beyond question to the Christian. But what about those people that do not hold the Bible with the same regard as do you? If we tell a sceptic that they must have 'faith' in order to 'believe' in Jesus Christ they will laugh us into the next county. Can anything be proven by faith alone?

Your thoughts.

Faith is NOT believing something that ain't so! It must rest on evidence, Biblical evidence. But the evidence that the Bible presents may not be the kind that can be verified by the scientific method. For example, there is no way that I can verify whether the doctrine of the trinity is right or wrong outside of the Bible. However, I can present evidence that what it says is reliable.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Will those that have resisted God be saved?

I can't know. I don't know their hearts. But I am confident that for some .... the answer will be yes.

It seems to me everyone CAN know.

"He who has the Son HAS life; he who does not have the Son does not have life."

"As many as received Him, who believed on His name, to them He gave the right to become children of God."

You can't have something/someone you are resisting.

And if by "resist" it is meant "rebellion," I am absolutely persuaded that no rebels will be in the kingdom.

[Woody]

Quote:

I am absolutely persuaded that no rebels will be in the kingdom.

Ahh Shucks. I'm a rebel ...

[Guest]

Pistis-Strong's 4102;persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God, especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

[skyblue888]

Here is an interesting definition of what faith is:

Faith is the condition upon which God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners; not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited, but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin. See F.W.100,101.

"Faith is the gift of God." Eph.2:9. If there is any faith in us it is wholly attributable to the mercy of a compassionate Saviour. There can be no faith wihtout the Spirit of Christ for "He is the Author and Finisher of our faith." Heb.12:2. It is the Holy Spirit that leads us to lay hold upon the merits of Christ in order for His righteousness to be imputed and imparted to us. And "God has dealt to every man the measure of faith." Rom.12:3. So all men, whether they realize it or not, have been given a measure of faith, a measure of the Spirit. If they do not resist the impressions of the Spirit they will exercise faith and it will grow exceedingly until they are filled with all the fullness of God. See Eph.3:19.

It is written that "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Rom.10:17. In other words, faith is the expecting the word of God to do what it says and depending upon that word and upon that word only to accomplish what is said in that word. The word of God is self-fulfillling. The Lord says, "My word shall accomplish that which I please" if we do not interpose a perverse will or an evil heart of unbelief for the words and commands of God are Spirit and they are life. There is in them power to bring into subjection and enforce obedience if we simply consent for the Word to have free course in us. See 1 Thess.2:13; 2 Thess.3:1.

"The Lord has given them His message. They bear the Word of the Lord: There is salvation for you but only through the merits of Jesus Christ. The grace of the Holy Spirit has been offered to you again and again." T.M.97.

"All the words of My mouth are with righteousness." Prov.8:8. "All Your commandments are righteousness." Psalm 119:172.

Thus it is written, "The Scriptures are to be received as the word of God to us, not written merely, but spoken." M.H.122.

This is the faith of Jesus. John 12:50.

sky

[Musicman1228]

I could be wrong but I don't remember saying that we don't need faith, just the same as I have never said we don't need grace. I just don't believe either operates as defined by Paul and modern Christianity.

Let me see if I can be clear as to what faith and grace mean in the light of what Jesus taught to his disciples.

I'll start with faith. When I said that the common definition of faith is this idea that we need to believe without full and complete truth I meant that the Christian church believes that as long as you have faith you don't really need to know the truth, and as a result truth becomes (in this regard) nebulous, ethereal, and ephemeral. The context is salvation by grace through faith. As I see it this type of faith can cause a person to believe that they are saved as soon as they say the sinner's prayer, and that beyond that there is really nothing they need do because Jesus did it all for them. Robert and Richard have carefully, completely and very well pointed out that in their view salvation by grace through faith removes the need for any Law or standard against which people need be measured. I personally see this as a distortion of what Jesus taught to his disciples.

The kind of faith espoused by the modern Christian church as promoted by Paul allows a person the option of believing a lie as if it were the truth, because no actual proof is necessary to confirm that belief. In doing this they assume (because this is what is taught in church) that by the grace of God they have put on the robe of Christ's righteousness which covers their sins, with the net result that they no longer have to worry about sinning because they are no longer under Law but they are saved by grace. This is circular reasoning where the answer brings you back to the question without really answering it.

Grace in this form is worthless without faith. As an astute observer of human nature Paul understood this, which is why he was ready to accept this type of salvation at face value without proof and corroborating evidence as to what Jesus really taught. It is my view based on extensive research in Scripture and other worthy sources that the kind of grace that allows a person to keep on sinning with impunity based on the concept that the Covenant of the Kingdom of Heaven no longer applies after the death of Jesus Christ because it was nailed to the cross is a perversion of the grace that God sent Jesus to earth to implement.

So what is that grace that Jesus came to reveal and implement by paying the penalty (by His death on the cross) for the disobedience of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Just this; You must be in the Kingdom of Heaven to be saved (John 3:5). To get into the Kingdom you must have your sins forgiven and your penalty paid. You must confess your sin before the Father (justification, 1John 1:9) and enter into a program whereby you work to eliminate sin from your life (sanctification, John 17:17-19). The end result of this process is righteousness (Matt.13:49,1John 2:29,Rev.14:4-5, Rev.19:8). If you do not complete this sanctification process because you die before you have accomplished righteousness THEN THE GRACE OF GOD carries you over the second death to eternal life (Rev.3:21, Matt.25:10).

There is such a thing as the grace of God, it is that grace that assures that those that are undergoing the process of sanctification whether they live or die on earth will be preserved for eternity. This type of grace does not require faith to accomplish, it requires trust, truth, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to bring you into that the truth. This requires that the individual to conquer in the same way Jesus Christ conquered (Rev.3:21). That conquering is the overcoming of sin and becoming righteous, through the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

You don't have to believe this just because I do. I do urge you to look at this with an open mind and not dismiss it out of hand just because I said it. Everything you read is backed by Scripture, and not just any Scripture but the words of Jesus Christ.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Will those that have resisted God be saved?

I can't know. I don't know their hearts. But I am confident that for some .... the answer will be yes.

So what are your thoughts on this text? "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able."(Luke 13:24 -NKJV)

[Gerr]

[wayfinder]

I answer with this text from an ear witness.

Mt 7:13,14

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

[Guest]

Hey Jerry, You miss Robert don't you.

[Guest]

Robert and Richard have carefully, completely and very well pointed out that in their view salvation by grace through faith removes the need for any Law or standard against which people need be measured.

Now you're just making things up. I've never said any such thing, or held any such viewpoint. Robert and I have never agreed on anything, other than the fact that you're out in left field. Robert is not even SDA.

Slander dosn't become you musicman. I wouldn't have expected that from you.

[Woody]

Quote:

Robert is not even SDA. Slander dosn't become you musicman. I wouldn't have expected that from you.

Where do you get this slanderous gossip from Richard?

[Guest]

He said he was glad he left the SDA church. I guess you don't know your buddy as well as you thought.

[Woody]

As I recall ... he left at one time and came back.

If not ... well then at least he was honest and open about it. There are some here that will not disclose if they are SDA or not. Yet they pass themselves off as SDA. It is deception that I am more concerned about.

[Musicman1228]

Richard,

If I am reading you incorrectly then I do apologize, but you have consistently spoken out vehemently against most everything that I have proposed, even when I use quote after quote from Jesus Christ himself. What am I supposed to think. Yes, I recognize that you and Robert do not get along but I am not sure whether that comes from an inner conviction that you hold or just the preference of stirring the pot.

In any case it is my impression that while you disagree with Robert on any number of issues you disagree with me even more. What I can't figure out is why you choose to establish a blanket disagreement with me instead of using this as an opportunity for inquiry and research to find out if what I am saying is true. Certainly you can't believe that everything you now believe to be true is in fact actually true. You don't strike me as the Leodicean type. If you were you wouldn't be so active on this forum.

Indeed, you have provided responses to my position and questions from the Bible, but most of those responses emanate from the person that by his own admission has a vested interest (as apparently do you) in preaching a different gospel than the one that Jesus Christ came to earth to reveal. I truly believe that if you could prove that the gospel of the Kingdom that I uphold was untrue from the words and teachings of Jesus Christ that you would be able to do it, but apparently you can't. And because you can't disprove 'this gospel of the Kingdom' by using only the words of Jesus you must denigrate the messenger in order to deflect the focus away from you.

As I stated before I am an adult and I can take 'the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune' that come my way because of my closely held and odd (according to some) beliefs. I just have to remember to not take any of this personally, because just as with Samuel in ancient Israel when they asked for a king the response God gave Samuel was, 'they are not rejecting you (Samuel) they are rejecting Me'.

I understand that you 'know' that you are right and I am wrong, I expect nothing less from someone as confident in his beliefs as you. Just be careful that in rejecting the opportunity to possibly learn new truth you don't also accidentally reject the God of Truth.

[Twilight]

Richard,

The word for 'faith' in Rev.14:12 is 'pistis' the meaning of which goes a lot deeper than just 'faith', which is a secondary meaning.

Pistis-Strong's 4102;persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God, especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. Rev.14:12.

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev.12:17.

According to this definition the word 'faith' does not begin to cover the true meaning. From reading the Greek definition I get the idea that the faith that is spoken of is not about our faith IN Jesus but about having the same level of faith AS Jesus. That makes sense to me especially when I compare the Rev. 14 text with the Rev.12 text.

Jesus had full confidence in His Father and in the Truth. He knew who He was and who His Father was. He had no ambiguity about what He was here on earth to do. That is the same type of 'faith' that we must have if we are to win through to the end of the Great Tribulation and gain eternal life. There is nothing insecure or unsecured in the 'faith' that Jesus displayed. More properly it might be better to use the word 'trust' in its place, given the full meaning of the Greek word pistis.

The common definition of faith is this idea that we need to believe without full and complete truth. In this regard faith is nebulous, ethereal, and ephemeral, believing without proof in things hoped for and things unseen. If there is one thing of which I have full confidence it is that this does not describe Jesus and His relationship with His Father.

The Faith of Jesus is the Faith in the Merits of Christ according to the SOP.

It is the Faith that Jesus is fully able to give us Salvation and victory over sin in every aspect, it is total Faith in Jesus to save us.

But a living faith, moment by moment. Not a cheap grace, once saved always saved.

Mark :-)