Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Posted August 25, 2009 I have tested it and discovered it is clearly as presented in scripture and the SOP. I don't have to worry about false gospel. It is THE Gospel. Of course you have tested it... But you have used the rationale of men that say that the SOP is all about "personal interpretation", which is another error the bible clearly warns us away from, there is no "private interpretation" permitted in matters of spiritual truth, we compare scripture with scripture and statement with statement. When you allow the SOP to be diluted and re-interpreted to fit the truth, then anything could be established... This has been displayed, when above was posted JS' position and contradictory positions from Ellen White and the bible, yet somehow, you state that they "agree". That is spiritual blindness of the most alarming kind my friend... Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Posted August 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood Quote: So if you are disobedient to the law, then you will be "out" of that saved relationship... Obviously I did not say this. And obviously this is a false yo-yo statement of which I would never 'follow'. You stated that by keeping the Sabbath you remain in. So obviously, not keeping the Sabbath would have the opposite effect and you would be "out". If that is not the case, then you do not need to keep the Sabbath, if you cannot be "out". Mark I don't have the time or energy to address your 'nonsensical' arguments. Yes. Isn't it amazing how one side has a 'closed' mind and the other is open to Truth? Ha Ha. Hey ... I don't fault you. I used to be like you at one time. But then I saw the light. It's fine that you have that view Mark. To each his or her own. Praise God we are not judged by all the high browed knowledge we have. Once we get to heaven we will learn how little we know. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Posted August 25, 2009 This is error of the most blatant kind: Jack: “The gospel of faith plus works, or justification plus sanctification, is at the heart of Roman Catholic theology. It is a subtle form of ‘legalism.’ ”--Beyond Belief, 25. Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Posted August 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood I have tested it and discovered it is clearly as presented in scripture and the SOP. I don't have to worry about false gospel. It is THE Gospel. Of course you have tested it... But you have used the rationale of men that say that the SOP is all about "personal interpretation", which is another error the bible clearly warns us away from, there is no "private interpretation" permitted in matters of spiritual truth, we compare scripture with scripture and statement with statement. When you allow the SOP to be diluted and re-interpreted to fit the truth, then anything could be established... This has been displayed, when above was posted JS' position and contradictory positions from Ellen White and the bible, yet somehow, you state that they "agree". That is spiritual blindness of the most alarming kind my friend... Mark Ha Ha. Very Funny. They agreed only through the lens of Mark and his followers. I don't classify myself as either one of those. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Posted August 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: Twilight You stated that by keeping the Sabbath you remain in. So obviously, not keeping the Sabbath would have the opposite effect and you would be "out". If that is not the case, then you do not need to keep the Sabbath, if you cannot be "out". Mark [/quote'] I don't have the time or energy to address your 'nonsensical' arguments. Yes. Isn't it amazing how one side has a 'closed' mind and the other is open to Truth? Ha Ha. Hey ... I don't fault you. I used to be like you at one time. But then I saw the light. It's fine that you have that view Mark. To each his or her own. Praise God we are not judged by all the high browed knowledge we have. Once we get to heaven we will learn how little we know. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness! :-( Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Posted August 25, 2009 Quote: Jack: “The gospel of faith plus works, or justificationplus sanctification, is at the heart of Roman Catholic theology. It is a subtle form of ‘legalism.’ ”--Beyond Belief, 25. This is the Gospel Truth as verified by the SOP and scripture. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Posted August 25, 2009 Quote: Jack: “The gospel of faith plus works, or justificationplus sanctification, is at the heart of Roman Catholic theology. It is a subtle form of ‘legalism.’ ”--Beyond Belief, 25. Ellen White has warned us that this is the type of Catholic theology that will be present in the end times and will be what we will have to fight against and remain firm in the Gospel message ... not the Catholic message. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Posted August 25, 2009 Quote: If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness! :-( Well Mark. Even though you be in darkness .... you can be assured that God still loves you. But He still hates the Catholic message that is so pervasive. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Posted August 25, 2009 Let us compare it again - spot the error: Jack: “The gospel of faith plus works, or justification plus sanctification, is at the heart of Roman Catholic theology. It is a subtle form of ‘legalism.’ ”--Beyond Belief, 25. -------------------------- The sanctification claimed by those who continue in transgression is a spurious sanctification. Thus the religious world is deceived by the enemy of God and man. . . . {Mar 238.5} Those who claim to be sanctified, and who give no heed to the words of divine authority spoken from Mount Sinai, make it manifest that they will not render to God the obedience that the Lawgiver requires. The very excuse they urge for evading the requirements of God proves their sanctification spurious. They say, "I am sanctified," and seek to prove this by setting up a standard of self-righteousness, a law of their own imagining. {RH, August 27, 1901 par. 4} Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Posted August 25, 2009 Let us compare again: Jack: “The gospel of faith plus works, or justification plus sanctification, is at the heart of Roman Catholic theology. It is a subtle form of ‘legalism.’ ”--Beyond Belief, 25. --------------------------- There are many in the Christian world who claim that all that is necessary to salvation is to have faith; works are nothing, faith is the only essential. But God's Word tells us that faith without works is dead, being alone. . . . Faith and works go hand in hand. . . . Works will never save us; it is the merit of Christ that will avail in our behalf. Through faith in Him, Christ will make all our imperfect efforts acceptable to God. The faith we are required to have is not a do-nothing faith; saving faith is that which works by love and purifies the soul. He who will lift up holy hands to God without wrath and doubting will walk intelligently in the way of God's commandments. {TMK 229.2} Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Posted August 25, 2009 As always ... your quotes have nothing to do with the topic and for certain .... do not prove the point. But I do like this part: Quote: "Works will never save us" Exactly what I have been saying and Jack is saying ... Sanctification will NOT save us. That was done by the doing and dying of Christ. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Posted August 25, 2009 And again: Jack: “The gospel of faith plus works, or justification plus sanctification, is at the heart of Roman Catholic theology. It is a subtle form of ‘legalism.’ ”--Beyond Belief, 25. ------------------------------- The testimony of the word of God is against this ensnaring doctrine of faith without works. It is not faith that claims the favor of Heaven without complying with the conditions upon which mercy is to be granted, it is presumption; for genuine faith has its foundation in the promises and provisions of the Scriptures. {Mar 232.3} Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Posted August 25, 2009 As always ... your quotes have nothing to do with the topic and for certain .... do not prove the point. I will let others decide. You may be decided, but I think it important to point out the error in this teaching and to bring it to the light so it can be examined. Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Posted August 25, 2009 You haven't shown anything that I would disagree with. All that EGW says supports what Jack is saying. Keep trying though. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted August 25, 2009 Moderators Posted August 25, 2009 Has he written a book that summarizes his beliefs? I would have to judge his teachings by what I read/hear second hand. If I am to judge his teachings by what Robert has presented here in this forum, then I'd say I would have nothing to do with his teachings. But that would not be fair without checking it out first hand. And there is not enough lifetimes to check out the teachings of the early church fathers and every Tom, Dick, Harry & Jane. Quote
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Posted August 25, 2009 And again: Jack: “The gospel of faith plus works, or justification plus sanctification, is at the heart of Roman Catholic theology. It is a subtle form of ‘legalism.’ ”--Beyond Belief, 25. ------------------------------- The testimony of the word of God is against this ensnaring doctrine of faith without works. It is not faith that claims the favor of Heaven without complying with the conditions upon which mercy is to be granted, it is presumption; for genuine faith has its foundation in the promises and provisions of the Scriptures. {Mar 232.3} Like I have been saying .... we all have works. It is not possible to not have them. Some have more than others .... yes. But we all have a certain amount of good works. However .... not one single one of them will save us .... as you so accurately quoted our prophet saying. So your 'works' standard it just too low. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Posted August 25, 2009 Quote: Jack: “The gospel of faith plus works, or justificationplus sanctification, is at the heart of Roman Catholic theology. It is a subtle form of ‘legalism.’ ”--Beyond Belief, 25. Ellen White has warned us that this is the type of Catholic theology that will be present in the end times and will be what we will have to fight against and remain firm in the Gospel message ... not the Catholic message. Yes, please supply the quote. Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Guest Posted August 25, 2009 Posted August 25, 2009 There are a bunch of his quotes from his book "Beyond Belief" a few pages back. He should have named it "Unbelievable" Quote
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Posted August 25, 2009 Very funny. The way you read quotes .... it would be impossible to show you. You see through a different filter than what I read in the Gospel. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Posted August 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: Twilight And again: Jack: “The gospel of faith plus works, or justification plus sanctification, is at the heart of Roman Catholic theology. It is a subtle form of ‘legalism.’ ”--Beyond Belief, 25. ------------------------------- The testimony of the word of God is against this ensnaring doctrine of faith without works. It is not faith that claims the favor of Heaven without complying with the conditions upon which mercy is to be granted, it is presumption; for genuine faith has its foundation in the promises and provisions of the Scriptures. {Mar 232.3} Like I have been saying .... we all have works. It is not possible to not have them. Some have more than others .... yes. But we all have a certain amount of good works. However .... not one single one of them will save us .... as you so accurately quoted our prophet saying. So your 'works' standard it just too low. It is not possible to not have them. Can you support that claim from Scripture? Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Posted August 25, 2009 There are a bunch of his quotes from his book "Beyond Belief" a few pages back. He should have named it "Unbelievable" The gospel is VERY believeable if you just open your heart and mind to Him and allow the Holy Spirit to fill you. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted August 25, 2009 Moderators Posted August 25, 2009 As always ... your quotes have nothing to do with the topic and for certain .... do not prove the point. But I do like this part: Quote: "Works will never save us" Exactly what I have been saying and Jack is saying ... Sanctification will NOT save us. That was done by the doing and dying of Christ. While sanctification does not save anyone, neither can anyone be saved without it! Sanctification (holification, if I may coin a word) is the evidence of justification. They go hand in hand, just like faith & works. Works does not save, but it is the evidence that a person's faith is genuine. Quote
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Posted August 25, 2009 Has he written a book that summarizes his beliefs? I would have to judge his teachings by what I read/hear second hand. If I am to judge his teachings by what Robert has presented here in this forum, then I'd say I would have nothing to do with his teachings. But that would not be fair without checking it out first hand. And there is not enough lifetimes to check out the teachings of the early church fathers and every Tom, Dick, Harry & Jane. My initial curiosity was aroused when Roberts and Redwoods enthusiasm for these teachings was so prolific. So I have done a little research and some of the quoted statements are not exactly "encouraging", please read through some of them taken from just one book posted above. After many months of debating with Redwood on different forums, I finally tracked the source of his teachings down to JS. So having been exposed to the error over a period of time, when I found the identical positions expressed by JS, it did not take me long to come to a conclusion. But let every man be fully convinced in his own mind. Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Posted August 25, 2009 While sanctification does not save anyone, neither can anyone be saved without it! Sanctification (holification, if I may coin a word) is the evidence of justification. They go hand in hand, just like faith & works. Now consider this: Jack: “The gospel of faith plus works, or justification plus sanctification, is at the heart of Roman Catholic theology. It is a subtle form of ‘legalism.’ ”--Beyond Belief, 25. Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
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