Jack Sequeira - Teacher of new light or Teacher of Error?

[joeb]

On 8/5/2016 at 7:59 PM, CoAspen said:

Are we talking semantics here....It seems both are talking past each other.

>The new birth experience proves we have accepted Christ's complete and finished work.  It doesn't save.<

Agree

And the lack of a new birth experience shows we have not accepted Christ, that He is not living within our hearts.  To argue that it isn't necessary means that the new birth experience is not necessary for salavation, and that is what Robert is arguing.  He says obedience, repentance, etc... are not required for salvation, and that is simply not true.  It is also not true that true repentance and reformation can ever be separated from salvation.  Thus, works are a necessary part of the Christian life for they are the outward proof of the inner change that comes from accepting Christ.   Good works cannot be separated from the indwelling Christ.  And, the indwelling Christ cannot be separated from good works.  If the works do not exist, then Christ is not dwelling in the heart.  

This is not semantics.  It's a very important part of Christianity and Biblical truth.

[CoAspen]

Quote

He says obedience, repentance, etc... are not required for salvation, and that is simply not true. 

That is not what I hear him saying. The above are important, but in and of them selves have no saving power. Christs death and resurrection is what saves us, when we accept it. Obedience, repentance, etc come afterward and are an indication of accepting Christ.

[Robert]

5 hours ago, joeb said:

... works are a necessary part of the Christian life for they are the outward proof of the inner change that comes from accepting Christ.

How good does a believer need to be to prove he or she has accepted Christ?  

 

[CoAspen]

Quote

 No one is forgiven without repentance and no one is saved in willful disobedience.

No one is saying different on the first part, the problem comes when talking about the second part of your statement, willful disobedience. Part of human nature, but we are still saved until we reject Christ. Again, I think the struggle in some peoples minds is the feeling they must do something in order to be saved. Keep our eyes on Christ and persevere. Really quite simple.

 

[Robert]

5 hours ago, jackson said:

So being "in Christ" involves  being a new creature having faith which works by a love , which in turn is demonstrated by keeping God's commandments

• Being "in Christ" refers not to you Jackson, but your "new creation" residing "in Christ" in the heaven places.  You receive this glorified life at the 2nd coming.

[Robert]

9 hours ago, jackson said:

The tax collector was justified because he repented and saw his need of a Savior.

Jack Sequeira: 

Adventists traditionally belong to the Wesleyan Arminian school of theology.  Unlike the Calvinists, who believe that Christ saved only the elect on the cross, hence “limited atonement,” the Arminians believe that Christ only “potentially” or “provisionally” saved all of mankind on the cross.  For this provisional salvation to become a reality, one must repent and believe in Jesus Christ.  Only then will God place that person into Christ and the provision will become a reality.  Thus, traditionally, we Adventists have limited the in Christ motif only to believers.

...This conclusion is a subtle form of legalism, salvation by works, since repentance and faith contribute towards ones salvation.  Whereas, according to Paul, it is the goodness of God (the reality phase or objective facts of the gospel) that leads one to faith and repentance (Romans 2:4). 

[Robert]

I agree with the following EGW statements:

Jesus stands in the holy of holies, now to appear in the presence of God for us. There He ceases not to present His people moment by moment, complete in Himself. But because we are thus represented before the Father, we are not to imagine that we are to presume upon His mercy and become careless, indifferent, and self-indulgent. Christ is not the minister of sin. We are complete in Him, accepted in the Beloved, only as we abide in Him by faith. RC 76.4

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, “Ye are complete in him” (Colossians 2:10). Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God. RC 76.5

[joeb]

On 8/10/2016 at 0:19 AM, Robert said:

How good does a believer need to be to prove he or she has accepted Christ?  

 

You just love these logical fallacies, Robert.  You think they are unanswerable but they aren't anywhere close to unanswerable....

Sanctification is by faith, and there is no thread of human devising in it.  God, through the Holy Spirit, is in charge of revealing to us our sins and the changes that are required in us.  Thus, He is the one in charge of who makes what changes when and in what order.  Our response is obey Him when He reveals the light to us that is required at that stage of our development: first the blade, then the ear, then the full corn in the ear.  It is our faith that allows us to recognize His voice and to follow Him whereever He leads.  Jesus said, My sheep hear my voice and follow me.  He also said if we don't follow Him in everything we are not worthy of Him.  Why would He say that?  Because, as He said, You will seek me and find me when you search for me with all your heart.  That means 100% commitment to doing whatever is asked of us. 

So, who is it that the believer need prove His commitment to?  God or humanity?  It is of course, God, for only God knows what He has asked that person to do, what He has required of them.....  So, a believer can appear to no do everything all other humans think he should, and at the same time be following God 100% of the time.  If he is living up to 100% of the light given him by the Holy Spirit he is justified, being sanctified continuously, and being saved.  He has no fear for his salvation.  He knows he is secure in Christ.  And if he screws up all he need do is repent and begin following God 100% of the time once more. 

Your statement shows how little you really understand the plan of salvation and how little of the Bible you actually accept as true.  You're in the same boat as those who deny creation, that Jesus is God, etc....  To follow God all the way means following his word all the way, not picking and choosing what we want to believe, but studying closely to find out exactly what God has said, and accepting His word by faith.  That's what Jesus did while here on earth, and He is our example in all things, not just some things.

[Robert]

5 hours ago, jackson said:

Do you believe today that He will give you strength and power to overcome every defect in your character?. . . .  {HP 118.3}

That's good advice, but the fact is "all have sinned and come short" of God's agape!  

"The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My (Christ's) perfection."  DA 357

[Robert]

3 hours ago, joeb said:

You just love these logical fallacies, Robert.  You think they are unanswerable but they aren't anywhere close to unanswerable....

Your statement shows how little you really understand the plan of salvation and how little of the Bible you actually accept as true.

Maybe I need a Pope in my life?  Anyone?

[Robert]

5 hours ago, jackson said:

He will not save those who do not do their duty. and obey his commandments.

Legalism.....

[Robert]

2 hours ago, Robert said:

"The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My (Christ's) perfection."  DA 357

Here's one of my favorite EGW statements.  This is reality; not pie in the sky perfectionism:

The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God.

Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit, and he urges his accusations against them, declaring, that by their sins they have forfeited divine protection, and claiming that he has the right to destroy them. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them." [P&K 588]

[joeb]

On 8/9/2016 at 8:56 PM, CoAspen said:

That is not what I hear him saying. The above are important, but in and of them selves have no saving power. Christs death and resurrection is what saves us, when we accept it. Obedience, repentance, etc come afterward and are an indication of accepting Christ.

Robert has repeatedly said exactly what you say you don't see him saying.  Go back and reread all his posts and you will see.   It's impossible to miss when his posts are honestly read.

[joeb]

4 hours ago, Robert said:

Legalism.....

There you go again, Robert, saying the new birth is not necessary.   If the new birth is proven by works of faith, then works of faith cannot be missing.  

I'm reminded of Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus.  He told Nicodemus that without the new birth no man can enter the kingdom of God.  You are saying it's possible, in direct contradiction of Christ's message to Nicodemus.  You claim to be a Christian yet deny the Son of God's words.  I find that exceedingly strange.

[joeb]

On 8/6/2016 at 9:21 PM, Robert said:

Not at all.  Keep in mind that Paul states the following:  Rom 3: 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

And Paul also says,

Quote

Galatians 5: 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
  15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
  16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
  17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
  18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
  19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
  20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
  21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
  22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
  23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
  24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
  25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

If the works of the flesh are present in a person's life they will NOT see God.  If the fruit of the Spirit is present there can be no violation of any law, including God's.  This is Paul agreeing with what Jackson and I have been saying, and completely disagreeing with you. 

If we are Christ's possession we will have crucified, put to death the flesh with its affections and lusts.  That is Paul, plain and simple.  If we are not Christ's we will not have crucified the flesh with it's affections and lusts. 

[Robert]

5 hours ago, joeb said:

He told Nicodemus that without the new birth no man can enter the kingdom of God.  

"As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mothers’ arms. They meet again nevermore to part. But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song of triumph from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life."  2SM 260.1

Little infants, who have never had a chance to experience "the new birth", who have never experienced "works of faith" will be in heaven!  Why?  The righteousness of Christ.  You know, that which saves without one ounce of human contribution!

[Robert]

2 hours ago, jackson said:

John 14:15    If ye love me, keep my commandments. 

There's some confusion with the above.  Jesus isn't speaking of the moral law.  Jesus is speaking of His teachings:

John 14:23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

[Robert]

5 hours ago, joeb said:

"that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

If the works of the flesh are present in a person's life they will NOT see God

Your theology is legalistic and confused.  

 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them.” [Gal 3:10]

[Robert]

9 hours ago, Robert said:

Here's one of my favorite EGW statements.  This is reality; not pie in the sky perfectionism:

The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God.

Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit, and he urges his accusations against them, declaring, that by their sins they have forfeited divine protection, and claiming that he has the right to destroy them. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them." [P&K 588]

I noticed that none of you who push salvation by law touched the above. 

[Robert]

3 hours ago, jackson said:

Only the repentant are clothed in Christ;s perfection

Again, when did infants repent?  They didn't...so "repentance" only applies to those who have reached the age where they can be accountable to God. Repentance, my legalistic friend, is not law keeping.  Repentance is admitting that you are a sinner in need of Christ's righteousness because you are a sinner before the law.

 

[Robert]

6 hours ago, joeb said:

If the works of the flesh are present in a person's life they will NOT see God.  

Works of the flesh:

"...when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he (Jesus)  turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Luke 9:54,55

"But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Mark 8:33

Luke 22:24 Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest.... 27 For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves.

Clearly Christ's disciples were a bunch of self-centered & egocentric men ready to fight at the drop of a hat.  They were of the wrong spirit.  

According to you that would have disqualified them for heaven, but Jesus told them " your names are written in heaven".

 

[Robert]

57 minutes ago, Robert said:

Works of the flesh:

"...when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he (Jesus)  turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Luke 9:54,55

"But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Mark 8:33

Luke 22:24 Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest.... 27 For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves.

Clearly Christ's disciples were a bunch of self-centered & egocentric men ready to fight at the drop of a hat.  They were of the wrong spirit.  

According to you that would have disqualified them for heaven, but Jesus told them " your names are written in heaven".

 

None of the apostles and prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, but have trusted wholly in the righteousness of Christ.

So will it be with all who behold Christ. The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14.

Let the recording angels write the history of the holy struggles and conflicts of the people of God; let them record their prayers and tears; but let not God be dishonored by the declaration from human lips, "I am sinless; I am holy." Sanctified lips will never give utterance to such presumptuous words. [EGW - AA  561,562]

[Robert]

If works do not save us then what are the function of good works in the believer's life?

1. For a witness so that others might be drawn to Christ.
2. As indicator that we are resting in the finished work of Christ.

More about number two momentarily.

 

[Robert]

4 hours ago, Robert said:

# 2: As indicator that we are resting in the finished work of Christ.

In the judgment of believers (2 Cor 5:10) how does our Great High Priest prove that professing believers are actually resting in His finished work?

Turn to John 15:3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you."

"But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,  not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us (past tense), through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly in Jesus Christ our Savior." Titus 3:4-6

Notice that we were cleansed "through the washing of regeneration", not in our experience (i.e., sanctification), but "in Jesus Christ".  So "in Christ Jesus" we stand clean now and in the judgment.  This is a righteousness produced "in Christ" without one iota of any human contribution. 

When we accept by faith the finished work of Christ we are accepting that "in Him" we are already clean from all sin.  "In Him" we stand "holy and blameless" (Col 1:22).

Now if you are resting in the finished work of Christ there will be fruit.  These are "works of faith".

 If you aren't resting "in Christ" and are seeking to be justified either partially or fully by your goodness, there will also be works. These are "works of the law".

In the judgment the fruits of the self-righteous will be manifested in what Paul terms "works of the law". These works will prove that the believer isn't resting "in Christ" and therefore Christ cannot represent such as perfect in Himself. (see Matthew 7:21-23)

 

 

 

 

[joeb]

17 hours ago, Robert said:

"As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mothers’ arms. They meet again nevermore to part. But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song of triumph from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life."  2SM 260.1

Little infants, who have never had a chance to experience "the new birth", who have never experienced "works of faith" will be in heaven!  Why?  The righteousness of Christ.  You know, that which saves without one ounce of human contribution!

Sometimes you make me laugh with how far you go out on a limb that you have sawed out from beneath yourself.  As far as you're concerned, I take it, that a little infant has the same exact reasoning and decision making powers that an adult has.  You are clearly implying that they are morally responsible for things they do not understand, and clearly cannot.  This kind of fallacy is what you rely on to support your erroneous position, and what does it demonstrate?  All it does is demonstrate your inability to honestly defend your position. 

Come on, Robert.  Debate honestly instead of finding every fallacy you can put forth.   To me these debates are a search for truth and a coming to a greater understanding of Biblical truth.  I really wish you had the same goal.  I fear for you Robert.  I'd like to see you in heaven,but dishonesty will keep you outside the walls of the new Jerusalem.