Jack Sequeira - Teacher of new light or Teacher of Error?

[CoAspen]

I see no dishonesty, you didn't reply to his last two posts, but choose to get picky with a different one. I do see some purposeful misunderstanding about what he said.

 

[Robert]

1 hour ago, joeb said:

... a little infant has the same exact reasoning and decision making powers that an adult has.  You are clearly implying that they are morally responsible for things they do not understand, and clearly cannot.

Who said they can reason?  Not me!

If they die before reaching the age of accountability infants are safe "in Christ".  

This same righteousness saves you through faith.  

 

[Robert]

1 hour ago, joeb said:

 I fear for you Robert.  I'd like to see you in heaven,but dishonesty will keep you outside the walls of the new Jerusalem.   

Is this your best?  Surely you can do better?

[debbym]

Jack was my pastor, he lifted up Christ wonderfully.  In Christ is everything we need to be whatever God asks us to be not only this life but for eternity.

What manner of love the Father has given unto us that we should be called the sons and daughters of God.

He offers us everything we need to grow up in him.

The love of God,  the plan of salvation is not static   It is living.  Like the flames of the burning bush  it is living fire. We grow from faith to faith from glory to glory.  Our transformation and our changes in our comprehension of God does not mean God changes but that we can profoundly change as we continue to walk with God and meditate upon his wonderful goodness.  We cannot contain God in our memories or in our mind, but we can know enough of God to come to love, worship, repentance, and surrender to His will as we understand it.  We require fresh revelations,  a present Savior, daily bread to live.

We are born, we breathe, and we grow because His grace has provided everything we need to be alive, and we choose to breath or not breathe His goodness towards us as sinners and live for eternity.  God has set His love on every human being... provided everything they need to live forever... everyone's salvation has been established beyond the reach of any kind of harm or destruction, to be received or rejected individually.

We do not establish our salvation by responding to it, we respond to it because it is already fully established.  I am sorry i do not see error in Jack Sequeria's ministry of the Gospel.  Not every mind thinks alike and this is ok.  There are lots of kinds of people to be ministered to and so we need lots of different kinds of Christians to relate the Love of God in many ways.

[Robert]

1 hour ago, debbym said:

We do not establish our salvation by responding to it, we respond to it because it is already fully established.  I am sorry i do not see error in Jack Sequeria's ministry of the Gospel.....

[joeb]

13 hours ago, Robert said:

Who said they can reason?  Not me!

If they die before reaching the age of accountability infants are safe "in Christ".  

This same righteousness saves you through faith.  

 

But, you equate their salvation with the salvation of an adult who can reason and understand all the issues.  You make the decision making required for an adult to be saved to the salvation of an infant who, while born with a fallen nature, is not guilty of sinning because he cannot understand the concept.   Like I said, this is a logical fallacy.   It attempts to make two unequal situations exactly the same in all respects.

[joeb]

1 hour ago, debbym said:

Jack was my pastor, he lifted up Christ wonderfully.  In Christ is everything we need to be whatever God asks us to be not only this life but for eternity.

What manner of love the Father has given unto us that we should be called the sons and daughters of God.

He offers us everything we need to grow up in him.

The love of God,  the plan of salvation is not static   It is living.  Like the flames of the burning bush  it is living fire. We grow from faith to faith from glory to glory.  Our transformation and our changes in our comprehension of God does not mean God changes but that we can profoundly change as we continue to walk with God and meditate upon his wonderful goodness.  We cannot contain God in our memories or in our mind, but we can know enough of God to come to love, worship, repentance, and surrender to His will as we understand it.  We require fresh revelations,  a present Savior, daily bread to live.

We are born, we breathe, and we grow because His grace has provided everything we need to be alive, and we choose to breath or not breathe His goodness towards us as sinners and live for eternity.  God has set His love on every human being... provided everything they need to live forever... everyone's salvation has been established beyond the reach of any kind of harm or destruction, to be received or rejected individually.

We do not establish our salvation by responding to it, we respond to it because it is already fully established.  I am sorry i do not see error in Jack Sequeria's ministry of the Gospel.  Not every mind thinks alike and this is ok.  There are lots of kinds of people to be ministered to and so we need lots of different kinds of Christians to relate the Love of God in many ways.

debbym,

If you do not respond to Christ with repentance can you be saved?  If you never grow in grace once you have said you accept Jesus, have you, in reality,  been born again?  If you say yes to either or both question, how does this uplift and glorify Jesus?  Does it not amount to God changing His law, for the only reason Jesus had to die was because God's law is immutable?

[Robert]

9 minutes ago, joeb said:

But, you equate their salvation with the salvation of an adult who can reason and understand all the issues.  You make the decision making required for an adult to be saved to the salvation of an infant who, while born with a fallen nature, is not guilty of sinning because he cannot understand the concept.  

I can't make sense of your reply....Try again.

[joeb]

On 8/13/2016 at 2:23 AM, Robert said:

Works of the flesh:

"...when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he (Jesus)  turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Luke 9:54,55

"But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Mark 8:33

Luke 22:24 Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest.... 27 For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves.

Clearly Christ's disciples were a bunch of self-centered & egocentric men ready to fight at the drop of a hat.  They were of the wrong spirit.  

According to you that would have disqualified them for heaven, but Jesus told them " your names are written in heaven".

 

I agree, as far as you go, but you once again leave out the rest of the story.  Peter repented bitterly of his attitude and gave proof of his repentance by a change of behavior.  When Jesus met the disciples at the sea of Gallilee he put the verbal needly to Peter repeatedly about this very issue of self-reliance.  He kept asking Peter if Peter loved Him.  What was Peter's response?  Lord, you know all things.  You know I love you because you read my heart.  No more self-reliance but a submission of his ego. 

Ellen White makes all of this very clear in the Desire of Ages.  The chapter "By the Sea once more" is very good.

Peter's works gave evidence of his change of heart.  If he had shown no change do you really think Jesus would have assigned him a place among the apostles?  I don't.  He would have gone the say way Judas did.  His guilt would have destroyed him.

[Robert]

44 minutes ago, joeb said:

 Peter repented bitterly of his attitude and gave proof of his repentance by a change of behavior.  

Again:

None of the apostles and prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, buthave trusted wholly in the righteousness of Christ.

So will it be with all who behold Christ. The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14.

Let the recording angels write the history of the holy struggles and conflicts of the people of God; let them record their prayers and tears; but let not God be dishonored by the declaration from human lips, "I am sinless; I am holy." Sanctified lips will never give utterance to such presumptuous words. [EGW - AA  561,562]

[CoAspen]

What works did the thief on the cross display? What proof did he give while hanging there?

Again and again people try to make salvation difficult. They keep arguing something that is not implied. I have yet to read where the accusations are true. I see deliberate obfuscation. I have read through the above posts many times and do not see a single person denying that accepting Christ means changes in our lives. But that does not save us. If proof is needed, then we have none to present, the thief died with out salvation. The changes a person makes, given the chance, may seem to others proof but I doubt they would say that of themselves. We are told that all our work, being righteous, is nothing. But always depend on what Christ accomplished for us is the theme. I would say that everyone agrees on that point. 

I see the hangup being about the use of the word 'works' and is most likely being confused with 'change' in behavior. Splitting of hairs.

[joeb]

5 hours ago, CoAspen said:

What works did the thief on the cross display? What proof did he give while hanging there?

Again and again people try to make salvation difficult. They keep arguing something that is not implied. I have yet to read where the accusations are true. I see deliberate obfuscation. I have read through the above posts many times and do not see a single person denying that accepting Christ means changes in our lives. But that does not save us. If proof is needed, then we have none to present, the thief died with out salvation. The changes a person makes, given the chance, may seem to others proof but I doubt they would say that of themselves. We are told that all our work, being righteous, is nothing. But always depend on what Christ accomplished for us is the theme. I would say that everyone agrees on that point. 

I see the hangup being about the use of the word 'works' and is most likely being confused with 'change' in behavior. Splitting of hairs.

I addressed this earlier on this thread.  Take a look at who he was before he was crucifid and who he became while hanging on the cross.   There is evidence of change of heart and change of behavior. 

[joeb]

10 hours ago, Robert said:

Again:

None of the apostles and prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, buthave trusted wholly in the righteousness of Christ.

So will it be with all who behold Christ. The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14.

Let the recording angels write the history of the holy struggles and conflicts of the people of God; let them record their prayers and tears; but let not God be dishonored by the declaration from human lips, "I am sinless; I am holy." Sanctified lips will never give utterance to such presumptuous words. [EGW - AA  561,562]

How many times do I have to address this?  Jesus said, first the blade, then the ear, the the corn in the ear.  In other words, there is perfection at every stage.  Just because a plant is immature it doesn't mean it is faulty.  Otherwise every farmer would give up in despair because everything they  have ever planted is defective from the get-go.   

I'm curious as to how anyone, even if they sinned only one time, could ever afterwards claim to be perfect as there is a blemish on their record.  This is just another logical fallacy, Robert.

[joeb]

10 hours ago, Robert said:

I can't make sense of your reply....Try again.

It becomes surreal around here sometimes....

I show you exactly what the underlying premise in your answer about infant salvation is based on and you claim not to understand the argument. 

In your example of showing how a little infant is saved it was your justification for an adult to have no need to reject sin and be born again.  Their salvations can never be equivalents because an infant and an adult are not equivalents in reasoning and understanding.  If you cannot understand that I wonder about your ability to reason.

[joeb]

On 8/13/2016 at 1:39 AM, Robert said:

There's some confusion with the above.  Jesus isn't speaking of the moral law.  Jesus is speaking of His teachings:

John 14:23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

I'm once again astounded by your "reasoning".  Did Jesus not give Moses the 10 commandments and all the other laws of Israel besides?  Was Jesus not the source, the inspiring power of the messages, of the entire OT?  Thus the 10 commandments are just as much His teachings as His words in the NT. 

You are using another logical fallacy. 

[joeb]

On 8/13/2016 at 1:47 AM, Robert said:

Your theology is legalistic and confused.  

 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them.” [Gal 3:10]

So, believe Paul to be a "legalist"? 

 

On 8/13/2016 at 8:39 PM, Robert said:

Is this your best?  Surely you can do better?

Yes, it is.  To care about you, to love you and want to see you in heaven is the best I can do for you.  Just because I disagree with you intensely doesn't mean I have any personal antipathy towards you.

[joeb]

On 8/13/2016 at 8:13 PM, CoAspen said:

I see no dishonesty, you didn't reply to his last two posts, but choose to get picky with a different one. I do see some purposeful misunderstanding about what he said.

 

Really?  Where is the purposeful misunderstanding on my part?  And, if Robert agrees with what I've said, why does he argue so vehemently against my position?   Would he not then be arguing against his own beliefs? 

This is once again becoming surreal.... 

[debbym]

14 hours ago, joeb said:

debbym,

If you do not respond to Christ with repentance can you be saved?  If you never grow in grace once you have said you accept Jesus, have you, in reality,  been born again?  If you say yes to either or both question, how does this uplift and glorify Jesus?  Does it not amount to God changing His law, for the only reason Jesus had to die was because God's law is immutable?

if i refuse the drawing of the Holy Spirit , if i reject the grace provided that i might live i will perish.  it is not complicated.  If i harden my heart rather than allow the Spirit to make it tender towards God and towards those he died for.... if i reject the eternal Life God offers me then since i am a creature i cannot  to sustain myself i will perish.

repentance is one of the gifts God has to give us, like faith....the Holy Spirit,  and hope... and love... eternal life,  wisdom, and more.... these are gifts... if i refuse the gifts  i am without.  In the gift of Christ is given to everyone in the world every gift.  Our experience of God is progressive advancing all the time... giving and receiving... more and more...

[Robert]

5 hours ago, joeb said:

Did Jesus not give Moses the 10 commandments and all the other laws of Israel besides?  Was Jesus not the source, the inspiring power of the messages, of the entire OT?  Thus the 10 commandments are just as much His teachings as His words in the NT. 

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance (heaven) depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions....

Rom 5:20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. 

The law was given so that the sinner might see his need of Christ's righteousness and be justified by faith.  The law was never given as a means of salvation.  That's Old Covenant. 

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Eze. 20: 11; Lev. 18: 5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them" (Deut. 27: 26). (EGW)

[Robert]

37 minutes ago, Robert said:

The law was given so that the sinner might see his need of Christ's righteousness and be justified by faith.  The law was never given as a means of salvation.  That's Old Covenant. 

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Eze. 20: 11; Lev. 18: 5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them" (Deut. 27: 26). (EGW)

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

We either stand just in Christ or we stand justified by law. The Jews of Christ's time were taught the latter.

On the other hand traditional, historic Adventist have come up with a hybrid:  We stand just partially by Christ (the forgiveness of past sins) and partially by our works (the keeping of the law).  This is what I call subtle legalism. It is basically the same theology as taught by the Judaizers in Paul's days. 

[joeb]

On 8/15/2016 at 0:06 AM, debbym said:

if i refuse the drawing of the Holy Spirit , if i reject the grace provided that i might live i will perish.  it is not complicated.  If i harden my heart rather than allow the Spirit to make it tender towards God and towards those he died for.... if i reject the eternal Life God offers me then since i am a creature i cannot  to sustain myself i will perish.

repentance is one of the gifts God has to give us, like faith....the Holy Spirit,  and hope... and love... eternal life,  wisdom, and more.... these are gifts... if i refuse the gifts  i am without.  In the gift of Christ is given to everyone in the world every gift.  Our experience of God is progressive advancing all the time... giving and receiving... more and more...

We are agreed on this, as far as you go.  Do you agree that continual repentance and reformation is required every day of the Christian life?  Or, is this a one time experience and it can be abandoned and left behind while stil retaining a saving relationship with God?  In other words, are repentance, reformation, and continual obedience required for us to be saved?  If not, where is the point where we become free of the requirement to obey God? 

This is my sticking point with Sequira.  I have yet to come across one of his adherents who says that sanctification is a requirement for salvation.  And, I've read a fair amount of what he has written and I don't see anyplace where he agrees that sanctification is required for salvation.

[joeb]

On 8/15/2016 at 10:56 AM, Seventh Day said:

<<If you do not respond to Christ with repentance can you be saved?>> 

If you are not saved you cannot respond to Christ with repentance.

<<If you never grow in grace once you have said you accept Jesus, have you, in reality,  been born again?>>

If you have not been born again by grace first, you cannot accept Jesus and never will really grow in grace. Grace before anything we do uplifts and glorifies Jesus. Making us accept Jesus conditional before He would allow us receive grace, means we are saved by our own works and made righteous according to the works of the Law, even if our acceptance is our only work.

<<…the only reason Jesus had to die was because God's law is immutable>>

The only reason Jesus had to die is because God’s love is immutable.

You are replying to something I have never said.  I have said, repeatedly, that works are the evidence that we have been born again. 

You are correct in that if we are drawn by God's love.  We respond to His drawing, His grace.  He makes the first move, but we must respond by obeying Him.  What other than obedience to Him is it to repent?  He says we must repent, and if we do not, are we saved?   If we do not respond positively to His leading we are rejecting His grace....  Now, if I at one time respond to Christ's grace do I need to keep on responding to His grace for the rest of my life, and giving evidence of that response to Him by a continual process of becoming more like Him every day because I'm doing what He asks of me because I love Him?  Or, can I make a one time response and never grow in grace beyond that initial starting point?  Can I start out a theif and remain a theif?   What about Ezekiel 18?  If an evil man repents and abandons his previous life he will live.  And, just as importantly, if the righteous man abandons his righeousness and begins sinning he will die in his sins if he doesn't repent once more.  The Bible is full of this.  To ignore it is to reject scripture.

There's another way of stating your last sentence that is just as valid.  The only reason Jesus had to die is because God's law is immutable.  There is no difference between God's love and God's law.  They are synonyms.  God's law is love, and God's love is law. 

[Robert]

5 hours ago, joeb said:

....sanctification is a requirement for salvation. 

[Robert]

5 hours ago, joeb said:

What about Ezekiel 18?

Yes, what about it? 

 "The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child."

How can Christ die instead of you?  After all God's own law demands the death of the sinner, not the sinless Christ.

Quote

The only reason Jesus had to die is because God's law is immutable. 

But Jesus never sinned so how could God's law condemn a innocent, sinless man?  The answer is the gospel.  Get to know it because it will save you from legalism.

[Robert]

1 hour ago, joeb said:

 I have yet to come across one of his adherents who says that sanctification is a requirement for salvation.

Again, legalism....

We already stand justified, sanctified and redeemed (glorified) in Christ Jesus.