The secret to victorious living...

[Robert]

So what law did the antediluvians or the people before Sinai tell them their behavior was sinful? What law condemned violence?

If you read Romans chapter 2 it is because they lived their lives without God....They rejected God....The sins that followed were the natural result of living for the flesh....

[Just*]

Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary [food]. Job 23:12

by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom 3:20

for where no law is, there is no transgression. Rom 4:15

[Robert]

Romans 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them

[SivartM]

Yay, proof-texts!

*gets out his list of proof texts to prove reincarnation* You guys will love these!

[Robert]

Remember, "agape fulfills the law"....If I keep the law without agape, I'm keeping sin. Anything I do...if I do it outside a selfless reasons I am sinning, even though outwardly I'm keeping the law.

[SivartM]

Remember, "agape fulfills the law"....If I keep the law without agape, I'm keeping sin. Anything I do...if I do it outside a selfless reasons I am sinning, even though outwardly I'm keeping the law.

^This is true.

[Robert]

Let's say I'm a singer....I have a band....The money for the tickets go directly for AIDS research. Am I doing good?

In the eyes of mankind, yes....

But God's law examines my motive....It ask, "Why are you doing this?" Without agape, I am doing it for self-centered reasons:

1] I'll look good in the community and receive the praise of men

2] People will buy more of my CDs...so it's a good way to build sells....

Anyways, you get the idea....

In the law's eyes, where you have "self" you have sin. Hence, EGW's statement:

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; [how so?] we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

[Steve Billiter]

When they (Adam and Eve)did eat they broke this commandment:

Exo 20:3 You shall have no other gods before me.

By obeying Satan, they put him before God.

When Cain killed Abel, did God ignore it? No.

How about when Lucifer sinned in heaven? What is sin?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

12-14 (see EGW on Ezekiel 28:13-15). Satan's Rebellion of Long Standing.--The records of some are similar to that of the exalted angel who was given a position next to Jesus Christ in the heavenly courts. Lucifer was enshrouded with glory as the covering cherub. Yet this angel whom God had created, and entrusted with power, became desirous of being as God. He gained the sympathy of some of his associates by suggesting thoughts of criticism regarding the government of God. This evil seed was scattered in a most seducing manner; and after it had sprung up and taken root in the minds of many, he gathered the ideas that he himself had first implanted in the minds of others, and brought them before the highest order of angels as the thoughts of other minds against the government of God. Thus, by ingenious methods of his own devising, Lucifer introduced rebellion in heaven. {4BC 1143.1}

Lucifer obviously lied about God in heaven, but I don't think The angels knew what sin was. As Holy beings, there should have been no need for God to tell them not to lie or covet, because if He had, they would not have known what it was.

Since God is Holy and sinless, that is His character, which we all must have written in our minds to have the final seal of God.

[Robert]

Does anyone think that God just told Adam and Eve, "Hey, there's only one law, don't eat from the tree!" When they did eat they broke this commandment:

Doesn't matter...and EGW is not the final word....Prove it from the Bible.

[Robert]

If I don't steal so I can go to heaven, what's my motive? I want something in return, right? That's not agape....Besides, I am denying that "in Christ" I have salvation full and complete now and in the judgment....Again, no assurance, everything you do will be polluted with self....

[Robert]

If I stop living a life of adultery...homosexuality..etc, but have not agape, the act is polluted with self....Outwardly I have ceased from sexual sin, but inwardly my motive is for a selfish motive - so that I can obtain heaven. Again, my motive is selfish....I want to be good so I can get heaven....That's legalism....

[Steve Billiter]

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. . . . He is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44.

I accept Ellen Whites writings as additional light, if you don't, thats your business.This is an Adventist site, if anyone rejects Ellen Whites authority, perhaps they are in the wrong church.

We are all to understand that there is a fallen angel who was once next to Christ in honor among the heavenly host. His work of deception was done in so great secrecy that the angels in less exalted positions supposed that he was the Ruler of heaven. Satan made the representation that all wrong insinuations existing in heaven originated among the angels, while he himself had made suggestions which would never have been entertained by the angels, had he not created them. He artfully presented these things to God, as having come from the angels, while they all originated with Satan himself. . . . {TDG 256.2}

Because he was not able to insinuate his deceptions upon Christ, he determined to undermine Him by false statements and reports. War in heaven was the result, and Satan was expelled. He became Christ's most deadly foe. His constant effort was to counteract, in every possible way, His great work of saving souls. {TDG 256.3}

Christ had worked in the heavenly courts to convince Satan of his terrible error, till at last the evil one and his sympathizers were found in open rebellion against God Himself. Then he claimed a right to take a position above Christ as covering cherub. Expelled from heaven, he came to this earth, determined to work against Christ. He is in no danger of losing the angels that he deceived. He has them under his banner, enlisted to fight against the Son of God. {TDG 256.4}

When Christ came to this world, Satan was constantly on His track, striving to make His work of no avail. When Christ was healing the sick and afflicted, Satan was on the ground, making His work of saving souls as hard as possible. . . . {TDG 256.5}

[Dr. Rich]

Robert, don't Pagans practice "Agape Love"?

Sin is not obeying God---period!

[karl]

... Again, my motive is selfish....I want to be good so I can get heaven....That's legalism....

There is a very simple self-evident truth that can keep us from legalism.

Self cannot cast out self.

[Robert]

Robert, don't Pagans practice "Agape Love"?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Mark

We are saved through the merits of Christ only.

The merits of Christ, opens the door to "Righteousness by Faith", which will produce obedience in the life.

Which is manifested in obedience to the commandments of God.

I think this is well stated. In saying we are saved by the merits of Christ only, I understand this to be involving the graciousness of God. That is, God saves us because of His goodness, by His grace. Our salvation rests upon His goodness, not ours.

Quote:

Not only is it imputed.

It is also imparted.

It is imparted into the life of the believer by faith...

I agree with this as well. I think it's a big mistake to think it's possible for the righteousness of Christ to be imputed without being imparted. The righteousness of Christ is what it is; it comes as a complete package. It can't be split up into two parts, one imputed and the other imparted.

We receive Christ's righteousness by receiving Him. That's the simple way of thinking of it, I think. We receive Christ by faith alone, therefore righteousness (both imputed and imparted) is by faith alone, a gift of grace. The faith that receives Christ into the life is a faith which produces good works, because the life we receive when we receive Christ is the life of Christ which is a life which produces good works. This life is received as a free gift, a gift of grace, by faith alone.

I'm repeating myself a bit, but just trying to be clear.

We receive Christ's righteousness by receiving Him. That's the simple way of thinking of it, I think. We receive Christ by faith alone, therefore righteousness (both imputed and imparted) is by faith alone, a gift of grace. The faith that receives Christ into the life is a faith which produces good works, because the life we receive when we receive Christ is the life of Christ which is a life which produces good works. This life is received as a free gift, a gift of grace, by faith alone.

Amen brother!

The merits of Christ part, is where we look to the sacrifice of Christ as the entrance into this experience.

The doorway.

But not only the doorway...

It is also the Ladder.

The doorway is open continually.

This is what the blood of Christ does.

But it does no one any good unless, they see how utterly worthless they are...

How utterly wretched, miserable, blind and naked they truly are.

But this is the problem a lot of the time.

We are not only unaware of this nakedness, when we do realise it, we try to "fix" it.

When at this point, we should lay hold of the blood of Christ and through that blood, receive the precious promise of the Holy Spirit.

It is only through the blood...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Then please state your views on the matter clearly and succinctly Redwood.

Mark [/quote']

This is a good question! I've been struggling a bit to find out what's being disagreed with. I think both sides are saying that righteousness is by faith alone, not by works, or by faith plus works.

One difference I've seen is that one side is saying that the robe of Christ's righteousness is only imputed, whereas the other is saying it's both imputed and imparted.

There also appears to be some difference as to whether or not it's possible to be completely victorious over sin.

In addition to both sides agreeing that salvation is by faith, it also appears to me that both sides agree that it's not OK for a Christian to willfully sin.

it also appears to me that both sides agree that it's not OK for a Christian to willfully sin

This is the position and point that Redwood is being challenged on.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Over the years I have met some adventists who were going about and letting others know that they were living a sinless life.

I myself believe that the third angel's message will prepare a people to stand before the Lord without spot or wrinkle or any such thing at His coming. However I do believe and understand that these people will be the last ones to boast of any sinlessness. Instead they will acknowledge themselves as "less than the least of all saints" and "the chiefs of sinners" though they would sacrifice their own life rather then knowingly commit one wrong act! (See C.O.L.160) Eph.3:8; 1 Tim.1:15. See C.O.L.160.

"As we behold Christ, pierced for our sins, we shall see that we cannot break the law and remain in His favor; we shall feel that as sinners we must lay hold of the merits of Christ and cease to sin. Then we are drawing nigh to God. As soon as we have a correct view of the love of God, we shall have no disposition to abuse it." 1 S.M.312.

However, "Those who are really seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge the thought that they are sinless. Their lives may be irreprochable, they may be living representatives of the truth which they have accepted; but the more they discipline their minds to dwell upon the character of Christ, and the nearer they approach to His divine image, the more clearly will they discern its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own defects. When persons claim that they are sanctified, they give sufficient evidence that they are far from being holy. They fail to see their own weakness and destitution. They look upon themselves as reflecting the image of Christ, because they have no true knowledge of Him. The greater the distance between them and their Saviour, the more righteous they appear in their own eyes." E.G. White, The Sanctified Life, pp.7,8.

God's true people will be unassuming because they will be clothed with the righteousness of Christ which makes them meek and lowly, little in their own eyes and they feel that they are the least of all saints and even the chief of sinners for they have a sense of their exceeingly sinful nature.

sky

But they will be shouting about Gods power to give them victory.

Them that know they are poor, wretched miserable and naked...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Paul was constantly aware that he was possessed of a nature that was capable of the worse sins, and that unless he was kept by the power of God through faith in the merits of Christ he would be in the same condition as the worse of sinners, even the chief of sinners.

Paul walked with God. He was one of those who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act. See C.O.L.160.

sky

Amen brother... :-)

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The law not only condemns murder...if you hate someone in the eyes of the law you are a murderer....That's at the thought level. Hence your thoughts must be pure...your motive correct.....

Gerry, you went to college to become a doctor. That's nice, but the law of God asks "why?"

Well, Gerry replies, I wanted to help folks and I wanted a nice home...money in the bank, etc...

And the law will say, "So your motive was polluted with selfishness"?

So the law is much more than the mere letter....

Please answer the question, instead of going in a tangent about my motives for getting an education. We've gone through that before.

Of course, the law is more than just the mere letter! But the discussion is: did the law exist before Sinai? And you are saying no because you don't want to acknowledge that Abraham obeyed God's "charge, commandments, statutes, & laws."

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So what law did the antediluvians or the people before Sinai tell them their behavior was sinful? What law condemned violence?

If you read Romans chapter 2 it is because they lived their lives without God....They rejected God....The sins that followed were the natural result of living for the flesh....

And you who likes to talk about context now jumps from Genesis to Romans? Yes, they rejected God; they did not honor Him as God. And that leads to sinful behavior. That is why a believer can/will sin only after he/she lets go of his/her hold on God. When a believer is abiding in Christ, he cannot/will not sin! That is why the devil does everything in his power to distract believers, to get their eyes off of Christ before he can do anything to make them sin.

[Twilight]

Let's say I'm a singer....I have a band....The money for the tickets go directly for AIDS research. Am I doing good?

In the eyes of mankind, yes....

But God's law examines my motive....It ask, "Why are you doing this?" Without agape, I am doing it for self-centered reasons:

1] I'll look good in the community and receive the praise of men

2] People will buy more of my CDs...so it's a good way to build sells....

Anyways, you get the idea....

In the law's eyes, where you have "self" you have sin. Hence, EGW's statement:

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; [how so?] we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

If the Holy Spirit is in your heart and you are following its leading then you will have the correct motive...

[Twilight]

If I don't steal so I can go to heaven, what's my motive? I want something in return, right? That's not agape....Besides, I am denying that "in Christ" I have salvation full and complete now and in the judgment....Again, no assurance, everything you do will be polluted with self....

Question Robert...

If there was no law before Sinai, how did Abraham know it was wrong to steal or kill?

If he was not aware of the moral law, how could his motives be judged by it?

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

You can't reflect agape if you are not sure of your salvation.

Enoch did.

[Woody]

Quote:

it also appears to me that both sides agree that it's not OK for a Christian to willfully sin

This is the position and point that Redwood is being challenged on.

Mark :-)

I can challenge you on legalism. I can challenge you on premarital sex. I can challenge you on Panthism. I can challenge you on your belief that homosexuality is ok for the Christian. I could go on and on about your beliefs. And it would not matter how many times you deny them ... I will still challenge you on them. Wow.

Only a stupid fool would believe that I think it is ok for a Christian to willfully sin. So there you have it. Now continue as you are ... telling lies that I believe that it is ok to willfully sin. But each time you go on and continue to do this ... I will call you a liar and a fraud. For that is what you are if you continue to do this after I've clearly told you I don't believe it.

As you were.