The secret to victorious living...

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

And what happens if they aren't perfect through their own diligent effort?

That is because the question asked was incorrect and did not really apply to the quote because it confused the old mans capabilities with the Born Again mans capabilities in Christ...

No one, in the strength of the old man, can overcome.

But all, as new men in Christ, can overcome and will need to engage in the diligent effort that God requires, so that they can surrender their wills to God moment by moment and receive the victory.

Mark

Again, you didn't answer the question

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Baloney! We are complete "in Christ"....This is our ticket now and in the time of trouble....Please stop bugging believers with this preoccupation with perfectionism....IT takes their eyes off Christ and His righteousness that we already have by faith alone. [/quote']

We are only complete in Christ, when we abide in Him and Him in us.

No, we are complete "in Christ"....See 1 Cor 1:30

Yes, as we maintain faith in Him a change is seen, but there's still iniquity in our lives....In fact the Holy Spirit, who is sinless, remains in you even though you are sinful.

[Robert]

If anyone believes that being in Christ gives them permission to sin, then they are not in Christ.

Christ does not have a personal relationship with such a person.

You are judging again....There are many carnal Christians, yet Christians....Jesus takes them where they are at....Please stop judging or you will come under judgment....Who said that? Jesus

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Mark briefly,

this is all about known and willful sin. To be like Christ means to choose as He would choose, to do what we know. To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin.

must run off to work have a great day

Originally Posted By: Norman

How then do the 144,000 go through the time of trouble Norman?

If they have not overcome everything in them, then Satan can cause them to fall.

I think sometimes we miss the fact of being able to abide in Christ fully. God can so change our hearts and minds that our response to all sin is gone.

He can be so present with us, so intimately leading us that we can live in victory, because we live in Him.

Mark :-)

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I'm sure it is His desire, but it is not a condition of eternal life or you have Christ placing believers back under law...

It says "design" not "desire".

The first would indicate a plan, the second wishful thinking.

This is not Gods wishful thinking but His intention being discussed here.

Did you misread the above quote?

Mark

Thanks for pointing that out Mark.

[pnattmbtc]

Mark, regarding your post in response to me (which it wouldn't let me post, because it's too many levels deep) it doesn't sound to me that we're saying something different. It's just that you said

Quote:

When I am in Christ, I cannot sin.

It is only when I am drawn away from Christ that the option to sin is there.

which I disagree with, as written, although I don't think I disagree with what you actually meant by these words.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Check out what this says:

"Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above, are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil." {GC88 425}

And what happens if they aren't perfect through their own diligent effort? If you say they are lost then EGW is teaching OC principles. She is an enemy of the gospel...

Robert, Ellen White is absolutely correct here. Jesus Christ taught the same thing in saying that if your right eye offends you, pluck it out. Are you really meaning to say that Ellen White is an enemy of the gospel? Or are you saying *if* she's interpreted a certain way, then she would be an enemy of the Gospel?

[Robert]

Jesus Christ taught the same thing in saying that if your right eye offends you, pluck it out.

No..no..no, Christ didn't mean any such thing....Ripping your eyes out doesn't stop you from thinking sinful thoughts....Christ was speaking to legalists (Pharisees).

....The same with Paul when he states, "As for those agitators [Judaizers], I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!"

[Steve Billiter]

Robert, Christ was not speaking to legalists. He is speaking about those who are struggling to overcome sin.

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

He is saying if we have a problem lusting after women, do something about it! If one is making trips to the beach and eyeballing women in bikinis, then we need to stop doing that.

We also need to make a point of not giving that woman who is dressed sexily the second lingering look. Christ is not saying to literally poke your eyes out, but to take action to avoid sin.

If we struggle with alcohol. well we need to get the beer out of the house, not hang out with drinkers, pray for strength, study the Bible and EGW on alcohol.

In other words, we need to choose not to sin, and also do something about it. We cannot sit on the couch and just ask God to deliver us from sin and then do nothing to help that.

Do we pray to get rid of animal products in our lives and still keep meat in the freezer and attend dinners with meat present?

This is what it means to work out our own salvation. God will never force us to give up our sins, we are not robots.

Php 2:12 Why, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Php 2:13 For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Salvation is a free gift, but it is also a cooperation between man and God.

[Robert]

Robert, Christ was not speaking to legalists. He is speaking about those who are struggling to overcome sin......He is saying if we have a problem lusting after women, do something about it! If one is making trips to the beach and eyeballing women in bikinis, then we need to stop doing that.

Yes, He was talking to self-righteous folks....

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

It says "design" not "desire".

The first would indicate a plan, the second wishful thinking.

This is not Gods wishful thinking but His intention being discussed here.

Did you misread the above quote?

Mark[/quote']

Thanks for pointing that out Mark.

It almost slipped past didn't it?

Mark...

[Twilight]

Mark, regarding your post in response to me (which it wouldn't let me post, because it's too many levels deep) it doesn't sound to me that we're saying something different. It's just that you said

Quote:

When I am in Christ, I cannot sin.

It is only when I am drawn away from Christ that the option to sin is there.

which I disagree with, as written, although I don't think I disagree with what you actually meant by these words.

The scripture is here Pnat:

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now notice, that a long as the "seed" remains in him, he will not sin.

In other words, when Christ is in us and we remain in Him, we stand in the position of Christ's victory.

We start from that position.

Our understanding of dying daily can detract from that.

Yes there is a daily death to sin, or a reckoning of death to sin, but it is from the position of victory.

We have victory, we have to stand in that.

Do you understand what I am saying?

Mark :-)

[John317]

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now notice, that a long as the "seed" remains in him, he will not sin.

It is helpful to understand that the Greek verbs, poiei and dunatai hamartanein, are present tense, and should be understood to mean, in the first instance, "practice," and in the second instance, "habitually commit sin." It does not mean that the genuine believer will never commit sin. 1 John 1: 5-10 makes this clear. It means he won't continue to practice deliberate, willful sin. See the Amplified Bible, below:

9 No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

[Woody]

But Mark. When you use victory in your post above ... you are referring to your belief that we are saved by our works. Scripture tells us much about those who believe in Salvation by works. You have frequently stated here about your belief that we are saved by our works and not by the blood of Jesus. I will not judge you and state where you are headed with that kind of belief system. But I will pray for you.

[Woody]

Quote:

No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin

Would this include deliberate, knowingly and habitually misrepresenting others statements after they have gone to you in private and in public?

[skyblue888]

Since it is God who is to work in us both to will and to do His good pleasure, and His good pleasure is expressed in the precepts of His holy law, what is our part?

"Unless he makes it his lifebusiness to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept the merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." Testimonies to Ministers, p.93.

To do God's will as it is expressed in the precepts of His holy law, considering our utterly helpless condition, is a greater miracle than walking upon the water. But it is only as we make it our lifebusiness to look to Christ, accept His merits, and claim them, that we can live the life of holiness. For as we do so, we are clothed with the robe of His righteousness which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God.

"We have been at work on the law (obedience to the law) until we become as dry as the hills of Gilboa. Let the law take care of itself. Let us trust in the merits of Jesus Chrit of Nazareth. May the Lord help us that our eyes may be anointed with eyesalve that we may see." E.G. White, 1888 Manuscripts, Vol.2, p.557.

The conclusion of the matter:

"The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." Desire of Ages, p.347.

sky

[John317]

Quote:

No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin

Would this include deliberate, knowingly and habitually misrepresenting others statements after they have gone to you in private and in public?

Yes, indeed it would, if that is really what is being done.

[John317]

Excellent post and quotes, sky. As a people we can't hear enough about Christ's righteousness and His merits. Christ worked out in His life a perfect character, and that character He puts to our account. By faith the sincere believer in Christ is credited with the Savior's perfect Sabbath keeping, as well as for all the rest of His perfect obedience to the Father.

By the way, this robe of Christ's righteousness is not a cover for the practice of willful, deliberate sins. See COL 316. Christ's righteousness will not cover one cherished sin.

[Woody]

Quote:

Yes, indeed it would, if that is really what is being done.

Yes. Indeed. I do agree with you.

[Woody]

Excellent post and quotes, sky. As a people we can't hear enough about Christ's righteousness and His merits. Christ worked out in His life a perfect character, and that character He puts to our account. By faith the sincere believer in Christ is credited with the Savior's perfect Sabbath keeping, as well as for all the rest of His perfect obedience to the Father.

Yes. But that is just the beginning. As we have all heard you state ... once this is credited to the believer ... the believer then has to stand on his own merits. And if he ever sins again then he is lost. This is salvation by works. It can be hidden for awhile but it's ugly head comes out.

Praise God ... when I sin ... I can go and ask forgiveness. I have often felt bad for those with the Salvation by Works theories such as what you have stated. I would have to believe that suicide must be high in those kinds of individuals. The only other option is to just stop believing in Christ.

How sad.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Excellent post and quotes, sky. As a people we can't hear enough about Christ's righteousness and His merits. Christ worked out in His life a perfect character, and that character He puts to our account. By faith the sincere believer in Christ is credited with the Savior's perfect Sabbath keeping, as well as for all the rest of His perfect obedience to the Father.

Yes. But that is just the beginning. As we have all heard you state ... once this is credited to the believer ... the believer then has to stand on his own merits. And if he ever sins again then he is lost. This is salvation by works.

But of course I have never stated this. On the contrary.

[skyblue888]

The Lord has sent a most precious to us. In the following statement there is found everything we need to know about the matter of salvation: faith, grace, works, and merits.

“In His divine arrangement, through His unmerited favor, the Lord has ordained that good works shall be rewarded. We are accepted through Christ’s merits alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of love, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merit of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works, in and of themselves have no merit. When we have done all that it is possible for us to do, we are to count ourselves as unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed by the strength of our own sinful nature.” 5 B.C.1122.

sky

[Woody]

Quote:

But of course I have never stated this. On the contrary.

Oh but you have. Must I get out the quotes?

[Woody]

“In His divine arrangement, through His unmerited favor, the Lord has ordained that good works shall be rewarded. We are accepted through Christ’s merits alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of love, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merit of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works, in and of themselves have no merit. When we have done all that it is possible for us to do, we are to count ourselves as unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed by the strength of our own sinful nature.” 5 B.C.1122.

sky

Interesting quote Sky. Could you tell us who the author is?

[Woody]

Quote:

What you're advocating constitutes Babylon.

In fact, don't worry about sinning-- God will forgive all sinning. Go on sinning willfully until Christ comes. Just love, love, love. Great news?"

I've never stated this. Nor do I believe it. Now can you stop stating that I do believe it. What does it take to stop the abuse? This statement is a lie from Satan. He alone wants us to believe this. Why do we as Christians want to knock someone in the ground and promote division and hatred by misrepresentation?

What does it take to stop this? I do not believe the above and never have and have never made such statements. So to ALL of you ... please stop it. For you all know it is false. Can this be the end of it?