The secret to victorious living...

[Robert]

I'm just wondering, Robert and Redwood, if you see yourself in this counsel below? "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you..."

And where were you and the rest of the guys when I was booted? That's conditional love...selective love...know as partiality.

Rob

[Guest]

Mark has judged another brother by stating he is unsaved. He needs a vacation.

So what!!! You act like you're not judgmental. You are actually one of the most judgmental people on here. I see you calling people heretics every single day. Are heretics or people that teach heresy going to be saved? NO!

The only difference is that you say it to people who don't really teach heresy. They just don't agree with you. So get off your high horse man, you're no better than anybody.

Just yesterday I saw you tell someone that they needed to have a real real hard life, and that they needed to be humbled. Who are you to make judgments like that?

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

I'm just wondering, Robert and Redwood, if you see yourself in this counsel below? "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you..."

And where were you and the rest of the guys when I was booted? That's conditional love...selective love...know as partiality.

Rob

You can't bust me on that one, Robert. I actually thought you had gone on vacation. Did you notice how peaceful it was on the forum while you were gone?

I'm not inviting you to go elsewhere but I would suggest you would receive greater benefit by refraining from calling those legalists, who believe following Jesus' advice is the Father's wishes for those He sent His Son to save.

"While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."Matthew 17:5 KJV

"....continue ye in my love.

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full."John 15:10,11

KJV

Now you have right to remove yourself from any joy the Lord offers, which right all have who are under the freedom Jesus offers His own. However your disdain for those who exercise their right to follow His injunctions, and consequentially receive the joy He is willing to give them for doing so, could lead the new and untrained in the Word to reject the Word from Jesus Himself to their own detriment. And if they do so in good conscience, they may lose their promised joy, but greater is the tragedy that will come to the one who caused them to stumble.

The second text below identifies for all to see, those who will not enter the kingdom.

"Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!" Matthew 18:7 NKJV

"...Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."Matthew 18:3 KJV

"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Matthew 18:6 KJV

Blessings!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Mark has judged another brother by stating he is unsaved. He needs a vacation.

So what!!! You act like you're not judgmental. You are actually one of the most judgmental people on here.

[Robert]

Did you notice how peaceful it was on the forum while you were gone?

Like Jesus said, "I didn't come to bring peace, but a sword." Truth hurts...it puts the glory of men's pride in the dust. The law was never given as a means of salvation. It was given to prove that "there's none righteous, no, not even one."

[pnattmbtc]

When I am in Christ, I cannot sin.

It is only when I am drawn away from Christ that the option to sin is there.

You're being "in Christ" is equivalent to Jesus, when here in the flesh, being "in the Father." We could argue, by analogy, that Jesus Christ, as long as He was "in the Father" did not have the option to sin. Since He was always "in the Father," He never had the option to sin. Since He did not have the option to sin, He could not have sinned. So this leads to the conclusion that Jesus Christ, while in the flesh, could not sin. Since this conclusion is false, there must be an error earlier, which is in the assertion "Jesus Christ, when He was in the Father, did not have the option to sin." Therefore Jesus Christ did have the option to sin. Likewise you, even though you are in Christ, have the option to sin.

We always have the option to sin. We don't have to exercise that option. We can choose instead to remain in Christ, but we always have the option to sin.

[Woody]

What I gather from this thread is it is fine to tell someone they are going to Hell if it's the conservative telling the sinful liberal it is so.

I am learning much. Mark tells me I am lost. But dare I tell you all you are going to Hell because you believe in legalism?

I am just curious as the the Christian rules we are establishing. Can anyone clarify?

[Woody]

BTW ... How is it that Mark can know the future and proclaim that I am lost any more than I know the future and can proclaim that I will be saved?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

If anyone needs to be removed, it is you. Mark is not even an argumentative type person. You on the other hand, that's all you do, no matter who's thread you post on.

Mark has judged another brother by stating he is unsaved. He needs a vacation.

No my friend.

Jesus has judged another brother.

All I have done is point you to His words.

Do you think Jesus' words should be banned?

If you give me a scriptural position, I will consider your point Robert.

A genuine Christian will point to scripture as their argument...

If you do not, then I will treat it as the thoughts of man.

And considering I have no respect for my own thoughts, I do not think yours would gain much precedence with me, without scriptural support.

--------------------

One thing I do notice however, is that there are many threads that could be a blessing.

But often, they get sidetracked into petty squabbles and arguments.

This is such a shame as there is much truth to be discussed here.

But the enemy does not want these things discussed and he brings his spirit of strife in amongst the mix.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

When I am in Christ, I cannot sin.

It is only when I am drawn away from Christ that the option to sin is there.

You're being "in Christ" is equivalent to Jesus, when here in the flesh, being "in the Father." We could argue, by analogy, that Jesus Christ, as long as He was "in the Father" did not have the option to sin. Since He was always "in the Father," He never had the option to sin. Since He did not have the option to sin, He could not have sinned. So this leads to the conclusion that Jesus Christ, while in the flesh, could not sin. Since this conclusion is false, there must be an error earlier, which is in the assertion "Jesus Christ, when He was in the Father, did not have the option to sin." Therefore Jesus Christ did have the option to sin. Likewise you, even though you are in Christ, have the option to sin.

We always have the option to sin. We don't have to exercise that option. We can choose instead to remain in Christ, but we always have the option to sin.

Hello Pnat. :-)

That would have been covered by the "when" I am in Christ.

You see, when we are "in Christ", we have to be taken "out of Christ".

Jesus was never taken "out of the Father".

So did not sin.

Was the potential there for Him to step "out of the Father"?

Yes.

But He did not.

His victory is our victory.

We are "in Christ", by accepting this simple process:

1. Our great need so that we turn away from all self effort.

2. The merits or blood of Christ as our passport into the abiding experience.

3. The Faith of Jesus, which is a gift founded in the Love of God that is shed in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

So as long as we remain under the blood, all the promises of God are ours and we walk victoriously.

The error in the liberal camp is that they stop here:

So as long as we remain under the blood....

And miss this:

...all the promises of God are ours and we walk victoriously.

Why?

Because of unbelief.

Unbelief that is taught.

God is perfectly able to give me victory, as long as I depend completely on Him to supply it.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

BTW ... How is it that Mark can know the future and proclaim that I am lost any more than I know the future and can proclaim that I will be saved?

I can only know the future as Jesus revealed it.

And it was revealed in the statement I gave you.

You will not be saved in willful sin.

And if you persist in the claim that you can call on the Lords name whilst practicing willful sin, you will be lost.

Only those that call on Jesus' name "and" do the Fathers will, will be saved.

That is what the scripture states:

Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You have repeatedly stated here on this board, for all to see, that you do not need to do the will of the the Father to be saved.

You have also said that Jesus will accept you, even though you are "working iniquity".

So you are here stating the exact opposite of what Jesus said.

Now you can of course try to answer this plain point Redwood, or you can cry out:

"crucify him"...

God bless you,

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Bump for pnat. :-)

[LifeHiscost]

But dare I tell you all you are going to Hell because you believe in legalism?

The only posts on this forum that I've heard attach legalism to anyone's posts are those who believe the legalism resides in any corner but their's.

And I've never heard an accusation from the so-called legalists

about the liberalism displayed. Now how does that fit into the camp of accusers of the brethren?

"Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down."Revelation 12:10 NKJV

Regards!

[John317]

With moderator's hat:

To anyone whose posts apply:

Stop posting about how certain members need a "vacation." This is up to the administrators and moderators. If you don't like the decisions or actions of moderators, follow the rules on making an appeal.

If you have a complaint, send PMs. Do not post these kinds of personal "beefs" on public threads.

[Woody]

Oh well Rob. I'm going to Hell anyways. Once that happens ... no one will need to condemn me for I will already have been convicted and condemned. Let's just hope they don't start telling you that you are lost also. One person condemned to Hell is enough on this forum.

[wayfinder]

Redwood, your (Loc:) reads "A citizen of Heaven", so how can you be going to Hell? Do you not like it where you are? Don't feel so bad, according to many on this forum, I have already bought my ticket to Hell, so I will leave the light on for you.

[Woody]

Redwood, your (Loc:) reads "A citizen of Heaven", so how can you be going to Hell? Do you not like it where you are? Don't feel so bad, according to many on this forum, I have already bought my ticket to Hell, so I will leave the light on for you.

Thanks Wayfinder. It appears we are buddies. Nice to know that there is someone else in the same boat. And thanks for leavin' the light on.

[WayneV]

Yeah, I thought the Motel 6 that I stayed in once was Hell, too.

:)

[Dr. Rich]

If anyone has been actually looking for the secret of being born again on this thread, may I suggest that you go see the new movie called "The Blind Side"? I, for one, would love for someone to 'walk the talk'!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Originally Posted By: Norman

Hi Robert, I hope you're doing alright. I agree in part with how you've interpreted EGW; and, you may actually see this the same way I do.

I believe that we can grow to become more and more selfless until we are not aware of any selfishness. In other words we will not be willingly self seeking. This however, does not mean that we are completely selfless or completely sinless. I do not believe that will happen until Christ returns.

After 6000 years of sin and self seeking it is not easily tossed aside. This does not take away from the power of the Holy Spirit but reveals the condition of mankind.

Norman

Hello Norman. :-)

I believe that we can grow to become more and more selfless until we are not aware of any selfishness.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

The bible states that "the old man" has to be crucified and the "new man" received by faith.

Are you talking here of the "old man" becoming the "new man".

If so, that is a common misconception amongst Gods people.

And it is incorrect.

Mark :-)

Hi Mark, sorry I took so long to get back to you.

(Rob this will answer your valid concern about seeing ourselves in comparison to Christ) Maybe we can agree for another 8 hrs :-)

Here's what I originally wrote, "I believe that we can grow to become more and more selfless until we are not aware of any selfishness. In other words we will not be willingly self seeking. This however, does not mean that we are completely selfless or completely sinless. I do not believe that will happen until Christ returns."

This is what I was saying. We will become more like Christ as we truly learn, practice and love God and others as ourselves. But as we do this we will still have selfishness and sin in us. One can have no known sin and act selflessly and still commit sins of ignorance and then realize how far away they are from being like Christ.

So it boils down to willful selfishness and sin which is how the old man lives and willful obedience that will reveal the new man.

back in the early 80s when I first became a Seventh-day Adventist, I used to believe that we could be sinless. Experience (which is not the sole guide) Scripture and SOP have taught me that while we can have complete victory over known sin (selfishness) we will not be sinless.

In the following paragraphs we are given insight into how God deals with us in this regard. While the topic is not what we are discussing the principle holds for our topic.

Last Day Events (1992), page 218, paragraph 1 & 2

Chapter Title: The Seal of God and the Mark of the Beast

Those who have an opportunity to hear the truth and yet take no pains to hear or understand it, thinking that if they do not hear they will not be accountable, will be judged guilty before God the same as if they had heard and rejected. There will be no excuse for those who choose to go in error when they might understand what is truth. In His sufferings and death Jesus has made atonement for all sins of ignorance, but there is no provision made for willful blindness.

We shall not be held accountable for the light that has not reached our perception, but for that which we have resisted and refused. A man could not apprehend the truth which had never been presented to him, and therefore could not be condemned for light he had never had

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

You're being "in Christ" is equivalent to Jesus, when here in the flesh, being "in the Father." We could argue, by analogy, that Jesus Christ, as long as He was "in the Father" did not have the option to sin. Since He was always "in the Father," He never had the option to sin. Since He did not have the option to sin, He could not have sinned. So this leads to the conclusion that Jesus Christ, while in the flesh, could not sin. Since this conclusion is false, there must be an error earlier, which is in the assertion "Jesus Christ, when He was in the Father, did not have the option to sin." Therefore Jesus Christ did have the option to sin. Likewise you, even though you are in Christ, have the option to sin.

We always have the option to sin. We don't have to exercise that option. We can choose instead to remain in Christ, but we always have the option to sin. [/quote']

Hello Pnat. :-)

That would have been covered by the "when" I am in Christ.

You see, when we are "in Christ", we have to be taken "out of Christ".

Jesus was never taken "out of the Father".

So did not sin.

Was the potential there for Him to step "out of the Father"?

Yes.

But He did not.

His victory is our victory.

We are "in Christ", by accepting this simple process:

1. Our great need so that we turn away from all self effort.

2. The merits or blood of Christ as our passport into the abiding experience.

3. The Faith of Jesus, which is a gift founded in the Love of God that is shed in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

So as long as we remain under the blood, all the promises of God are ours and we walk victoriously.

The error in the liberal camp is that they stop here:

So as long as we remain under the blood....

And miss this:

...all the promises of God are ours and we walk victoriously.

Why?

Because of unbelief.

Unbelief that is taught.

God is perfectly able to give me victory, as long as I depend completely on Him to supply it. Mark :-)

Hi Mark,

I read through this post and would like to add some comments. You said, "You see, when we are "in Christ", we have to be taken "out of Christ"." and the other part of that was, "to sin"

To be taken out of Christ would be to sin. Think of Adam, who was in Christ and did not have a sinful nature. He was in Christ and he chose to sin. If he was taken out of Christ as you have written, then at what point was he taken out of Christ? I don't think that can be established and so we have to say that when he sinned he was in Christ.

Let's go back another step; Lucifer was in Christ, in heaven and sinlessness (as Adam) and to add to this, no outside temptation. At what point was he taken out of Christ?

The minute he would have been taken outside of Christ would be the moment he sinned.

I believe there needs to be a study of what "in Christ" really means. I think we've had some here before but as time has passed we have all grown and earned more.

Some people have been led to believe that God requires complete perfection and sinlessness. (To be exactly like Christ.) I believe we can over come all known sin, but how can one overcome what they don't know about, that which will be revealed to us as we grow in Christ?

So with the idea that God requires us to be exactly like Christ in mind, we interpret the Bible and SOP and come up with some un-scriptural teachings. The strange thing about that is we can come up on both sides of the fence, some legalistic and some presumptuous.

Norman

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Hi Mark,

I read through this post and would like to add some comments. You said, "You see, when we are "in Christ", we have to be taken "out of Christ"." and the other part of that was, "to sin"

To be taken out of Christ would be to sin. Think of Adam, who was in Christ and did not have a sinful nature. He was in Christ and he chose to sin. If he was taken out of Christ as you have written, then at what point was he taken out of Christ? I don't think that can be established and so we have to say that when he sinned he was in Christ.

Let's go back another step; Lucifer was in Christ, in heaven and sinlessness (as Adam) and to add to this, no outside temptation. At what point was he taken out of Christ?

The minute he would have been taken outside of Christ would be the moment he sinned.

I believe there needs to be a study of what "in Christ" really means. I think we've had some here before but as time has passed we have all grown and earned more.

Some people have been led to believe that God requires complete perfection and sinlessness. (To be exactly like Christ.) I believe we can over come all known sin, but how can one overcome what they don't know about, that which will be revealed to us as we grow in Christ?

So with the idea that God requires us to be exactly like Christ in mind, we interpret the Bible and SOP and come up with some un-scriptural teachings. The strange thing about that is we can come up on both sides of the fence, some legalistic and some presumptuous.

Norman

God does not judge what we do not know about Norman, I agree.

But I believe He will lead us to total victory, total union with God, if we allow Him and trust in the merits of Christ.

After all, John said we need not sin and Jesus said "be ye perfect..." :-)

Mark

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Mark,

I think we can have total victory over known sin, but not over all sin. In other words there are things in us that we just don't know about. We are so selfish and sinful that we do not see these things. As we grow in Grace we learn of these things and overcome them. Those are the sins that Christ died for, His death does not cover willful sin nor does He place His robe of righteousness on anyone who willfully sins.

God is looking for a people who are willing to do what He desires/His will.

His will is to that we first believe in His Son and then that we receive His Holy Spirit and then let ourselves be used by Him to reach others at the expense of ourselves, as Christ did and was so beautifully exemplified in the life of Paul and other disciples.

When we focus on total victory over sin we really do not attain that because the motive is self centered. Selflessness and victory over known sin is brought about by letting God use us in His purpose to save souls and vindicate Him in the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan. We overcome evil with good.

Also when Jesus said Be ye perfect even as you Father in heaven is perfect, it was not in reference to overcoming sin. The context is; being equally gracious and loving to the good as well as the bad. Then the example Jesus gives is that He (the Father) lets His sun to shine on the good and the evil.... therefore be ye perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. The perfection is referring to being and emitting love to all, rather than choosing to love those who can benefit us.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

I would like to add a side note that will help explain some terms we use as SDAs.

Grace: Not a single one of us deserves to even live. Adam and Eve should have died but rather that God letting the death sentence proceed He justified their lives by revealing the plan of salvation. He told them of the coming Christ and that they would have justification of life until He came when the shadow of the sacrifice would see the substance. This kind of grace brings sorrow and confession for fighting against God and produces true repentance that leads us to surrender ourselves as completely as we can to God.

Imputed Righteousness: Once the above take place and we ask for forgiveness and have laid aside our enmity against God we are then ready for Christ to put His robe upon us. This is called imputed righteousness. His life for mine. His life record for mine. This ought to fill our souls with joy and fire! If not we need to reconsider what God has done for us.

Imparted Righteousness: The next step is the reception of the Holy Spirit who give us the ability to do those things which God has called us to do in this battle against sin and Satan and leads us to glorify and vindicate His name.

note this and remember it well: if anyone of us are holding on to sin, we have not even begun this process in any way at all. We have not received grace nor his righteousness and certainly no the imputed righteousness. That is the seriousness of willful sin. God help us and take us to the cross of Christ so we can begin walk as He walked.

[Twilight]

Mark,

I think we can have total victory over known sin, but not over all sin. In other words there are things in us that we just don't know about. We are so selfish and sinful that we do not see these things. As we grow in Grace we learn of these things and overcome them. Those are the sins that Christ died for, His death does not cover willful sin nor does He place His robe of righteousness on anyone who willfully sins.

God is looking for a people who are willing to do what He desires/His will.

Norman

But if God makes all sin known, then total victory is possible?

:-)