The secret to victorious living...

[Twilight]

Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross. 21 And you who were once estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled [where?] in his fleshly body through death [the cross], so as to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him— 23 provided that you continue securely established and steadfast in the faith

If you continue in the faith Jesus represents you "holy and blameless" in His fleshly body....In Him you are complete!

Do you think you are continuing in the "faith" if you are sinning willfully Robert?

[Twilight]

The Secret of Victorious Living.

There is (as I expect others have said already) ultimately one "secret" to victorious Christian living.

"...and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith." (1Jn 5:4)

Obviously we have many examples of faith in action.

"Goliath trusted in his armor, while David's trust was in the Lord. He did not desire to win fame or glory for himself, but that all the earth might "know that there is a God in Israel." Here is the secret of the disastrous overthrow of the one, and the signal victory of the other..."

We have many examples in Hebrews 11 where faith produced realities. By faith Noah built the ark. By faith Abraham left Ur, when he did not know where he was going. By faith Moses' parents hid him for 3 months.

To me, part of the secret of victory is in the understanding that faith produces realities -- definite actions -- in us. By faith, when we are smitten on the one cheek, we offer the other.

But if anyone trusts in the idea that faith means Christ will do everything for them "by proxy", then that person will suffer disappointment.

"The secret of Satan's power over God's professed people lies in the decietfulness of the human heart." Self-deception characterizes our day (Rev 3). There is a tendency in our day, to think that we have a great deal, when the reality is just the opposite (spiritual destitution). That is "the secret" of many of his victories.

But God counter-works the Devil, and heals our eyes that we might see ourselves as we really are, and do something about it.

_________

Stewart

There can be a misconception of what "faith" is.

Some people think "faith" is believing "hard enough".

But that is incorrect.

Faith lays hold of God, and demands what He commands...

For instance:

God commanded me to abide in Him and Him in me.

Now I know that God has promised to write the law on my heart.

This is part of His law.

So I now turn to God and in faith, "demand" that He fulfill His covenant.

(He wants us to boldly approach the throne of God).

Then God performs that in me, which I have claimed from Him.

This is how we overcome...

Mark :-)

[Woody]

Quote:

This is the gospel of "your best effort is good enough".

The only Gospel message that is true ... is that the effort of Jesus on the cross was good enough. Nothing that is our best effort is good enough. Jack does not teach the twisted message that you accuse him of. His message is that what JESUS did on the cross is sufficient.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross. 21 And you who were once estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled [where?] in his fleshly body through death [the cross], so as to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him— 23 provided that you continue securely established and steadfast in the faith

If you continue in the faith Jesus represents you "holy and blameless" in His fleshly body....In Him you are complete!

Do you think you are continuing in the "faith" if you are sinning willfully Robert?

Yes...unless the Spirit is really driving something home, yes....How so? I still practice the love of self....It ain't an accident....Yes, less self-seeking, but nevertheless I am sinning....Where you have "self" you have sin....Unless I am totally living for others (as did Christ) I am sinning....You are too, but instead of accepting this reality you limit the law to rules that you can keep....The Pharisees were experts at this....

[Robert]

I do not think Jack is understanding Paul here at all.

That's his special....That's his main study....IT is you who can't understand....Traditional SDA have a hard time with Paul's letters....

[Woody]

Quote:

I am sinning....You are too

Amen. I AM a SINNER. And we all are. And will continue to be till we SEE HIS FACE.

Praise God for His sacrifice for me ... a sinner.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Do you think you are continuing in the "faith" if you are sinning willfully Robert?

Yes...unless the Spirit is really driving something home, yes....How so? I still practice the love of self....It ain't an accident....Yes, less self-seeking, but nevertheless I am sinning....Where you have "self" you have sin....Unless I am totally living for others (as did Christ) I am sinning....You are too, but instead of accepting this reality you limit the law to rules that you can keep....The Pharisees were experts at this....

Then you are not born again by biblical standards Robert.

Self has to die in Christ.

You cannot serve two masters...

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I do not think Jack is understanding Paul here at all.

That's his special....That's his main study....IT is you who can't understand....Traditional SDA have a hard time with Paul's letters....

I am a Christian.

And I do not have any problems with Pauls writings in the main.

Especially on the subject of righteousness by faith.

Mark

[Woody]

Quote:

Yes...unless the Spirit is really driving something home, yes....How so? I still practice the love of self....It ain't an accident....Yes, less self-seeking, but nevertheless I am sinning....Where you have "self" you have sin....Unless I am totally living for others (as did Christ) I am sinning....You are too, but instead of accepting this reality you limit the law to rules that you can keep....The Pharisees were experts at this....

AMEN AMEN. Thank you Rob. Well stated.

[Twilight]

Quote:

I am sinning....You are too

Amen. I AM a SINNER. And we all are. And will continue to be till we SEE HIS FACE.

Praise God for His sacrifice for me ... a sinner.

I am a sinner who is Hid with Christ in God.

God has given me the victory over sin.

I just have to stand in it.

Sometimes I forget to stand, or am distracted.

But my position is "in Christ".

If I was standing in France right now, I would be "in France".

I am standing in Christ right now, so I am "in Christ".

So many Christians claim a position that is "in sin", and they have such a joyful glee announcing it, it makes one wonder if they even begin to understand the born again experience...

Mark

[wayfinder]

John 3:5,6 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

These two texts show in completeness the quality and charicteristics of those who are born again. It is the Spirit of God who gives them rebirth, the Spirit of God does not give birth to sin or sinners. She does not hide the sin of sinners from God. The Holy Spirit of God gives birth to the righteous. God's offspring are righteous and holy.

Revelation 22:11 NAS

"Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong ; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy ; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness ; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

Matthew 13:49 NAS

"So it will be at the end of the age ; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,

Matthew 5:6 NAS

"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Matthew 5:20 NAS

"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 6:33 NAS

"But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Genesis 18:19 NAS

"For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him."

[John317]

Quote:

I am sinning....You are too

Amen. I AM a SINNER. And we all are. And will continue to be till we SEE HIS FACE.

Praise God for His sacrifice for me ... a sinner.

Yes, we will continue to be sinners in the sense of having a sinful nature, but God's people will not continue to practice willful, deliberate sins until they die or until He returns. That is a lie of the Devil and contradicts everything the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy teach. The people of God resist temptation and overcome sin by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. There is power in the blood for the keeping of God's commandments. That is an essential part of the Three Angels Messages and the Investigative Judgment that SDAs proclaim.

Carefully study 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6.

[LifeHiscost]

But if anyone trusts in the idea that faith means Christ will do everything for them "by proxy", then that person will suffer disappointment.

[Twilight]

John 3:5,6 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

These two texts show in completeness the quality and charicteristics of those who are born again. It is the Spirit of God who gives them rebirth, the Spirit of God does not give birth to sin or sinners. She does not hide the sin of sinners from God. The Holy Spirit of God gives birth to the righteous. God's offspring are righteous and holy.

Revelation 22:11 NAS

"Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong ; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy ; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness ; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

Matthew 13:49 NAS

"So it will be at the end of the age ; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,

Matthew 5:6 NAS

"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Matthew 5:20 NAS

"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 6:33 NAS

"But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Genesis 18:19 NAS

"For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him."

Amen. :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

I am sinning....You are too

Amen. I AM a SINNER. And we all are. And will continue to be till we SEE HIS FACE.

Praise God for His sacrifice for me ... a sinner.

Yes, we will continue to be sinners in the sense of having a sinful nature, but God's people will not continue to practice willful, deliberate sins until they die or until He returns. That is a lie of the Devil and contradicts everything the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy teach. The people of God resist temptation and overcome sin by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. There is power in the blood for the keeping of God's commandments. That is an essential part of the Three Angels Messages and the Investigative Judgment that SDAs proclaim.

Carefully study 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6.

How about, the children of God cannot but help overcome, as they are now standing in Christ?

[Gerr]

Quote:

Here's Jack Sequeira:

And now I come to a very important point, and I want you to be clear on this. Paul is not dealing in Romans 6 with performance; he is dealing with attitude towards sin. I want you to keep this in mind. Paul is not dealing with performance, he’s dealing with attitude. I’ll tell you why.

One man's opinion. Here are Paul's OWN words: "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." Ro 6:12-14 ESV.

Is he talking ONLY of attitude? NOOOOOOO!!! You can't be truly born again and not have a change in attitude AND performance. God promised POWER so the believer can carry out what he/He wills.

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Phil 2:13 ESV " No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him." 1 Jn 3:6 ESV. Now, we either believe God's word or not. "God is not man that He should lie," Num 22:19 ESV.

Quote:

You may have said good-bye to sin in your heart, but does that mean that you don’t fall? Does it mean that you don’t have struggles?

Falling and struggling are NOT one and the same thing!!! As long as we are in this body, we will have sin/self to contend & struggle with. "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling [falling - KJV] and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy," Jude 24 ESV.

When we are abiding IN CHRIST, we can't/will not sin, that is the promise of the One who cannot lie. It is when we stray from His presence that we do fall. And the one who is a slave to sin remains there, to continue to take orders from sin the master. But " a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity." Prov 24:16 ESV.

Quote:

If I said, “You have no more struggles,” I would be lying to you. You know very well that you are still struggling and that you still fall. But a Christian’s performance must never be because he condones sin. In other words, our attitude towards sin must always be negative, even though in performance we fall many times.

It seems to me he is making a distinction between between willful/deliberate/in-your-face kind of disobedience from inadvertent sin, which I fully agree with.

... I want you to be clear that Paul is not dealing here with performance.

[Gerr]

Quote:

The correct interpretation is what is true of us "in Christ"....In Christ we have a new, glorified humanity....

You can claim to be "in Christ" all you want, but unless the life is conforming to His image, it's nothing but a lie.

Quote:

If you apply this to the believer's life you'll get into trouble because all believers are "falling short"....They ain't measuring up, even though they are growing....

We've gone over this ground many times before. Falling short is not = to sinning. Does a reproduction of the Mona Lisa ever equal the original? I doubt it.

Quote:

Bottom line? Your theology is off....

By whose opinion? Yours?

Quote:

It brings one under the bondage of perfectionism and law....

I've asked you this before but I will ask it again. Who walks around freely, law-abiding citizens? Or lawbreakers?

"And I will walk at liberty, For I seek Your precepts." Ps 119:45 ESV

[Gerr]

Quote:

So the work of Jesus was *not* finished at the cross...

The word "finished" can have a different connotation in different contexts. We built our house

in NC and moved in a year ago. When the grading contractor did his job, he said, "It is finished."

When the concrete contractor finished his job, he checked it off as "finished." So did the

framing contractor. Ditto the roofer, the dry wall, painting contractors. At each stage, each one

claimed "it is finished." But in reality the whole house was not finished. We "moved" into our

house one year ago, but there are still unopened scattered boxes in the basement. Are we REALLY

"moved" in? Before His crucifixion Jesus claimed in Jn 17:6, "I have finished the work you have

given me to do." Yet in Jn 19:30 He again claims, "it is finished." There is a parallel situation

in Revelation. In 16:17, the angel says, "it is done." Yet in 21:6, Jesus also says, "it is done."

In the same way, at every stage in the plan of salvation, God can claim "it is finished." But the

whole plan cannot be truly finished until sin and sinners are no more and the earth made new.

Hope that helps.

[Gerr]

Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross. 21 And you who were once estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled [where?] in his fleshly body through death [the cross], so as to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him— 23 provided that you continue securely established and steadfast in the faith

If you continue in the faith Jesus represents you "holy and blameless" in His fleshly body....In Him you are complete!

At what point does the REALITY of reconciliation take place? At the Cross or when you accept Christ as your Savior?

What Jesus did at the Cross is POTENTIAL. It does me not one iota of good nor anyone else until I accept Him as my Savior.

The peace treaty that ended all hostilities signed in Tokyo bay in 1945 did not do the Japanese soldiers any good who either

did not hear of it or did not believe it. Some kept on fighting until the 1970's.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

So you don't deny that his work is ongoing in the heavenly Sanctuary?

The work is complete....The question is have you accepted that perfect work? If so Jesus represents you "in Himself" perfect before God's law.

The function of God's work in you (imparted righteousness) is not to add to Christ's perfect work. What He does in you is used in two ways:

1] As a witness so that others may see Christ in you and desire Christ by faith

2] These fruits will be used in the judgment not to prove your righteousness, because technically "there is none righteous, not even one", but to prove your faith.....Genuine faith reveals a genuine change of heart/mind....Less self is seen and more Jesus.

IMHO your view of the Plan of Salvation is too narrow. You are only looking at a few trees and not the WHOLE forest. You are stuck only with justification, when the whole plan includes total restoration. That includes the restoration of the image of God in man. And that

begins HERE AND NOW.

"Satan constantly seeks to make of none effect the great work of redemption. What importance, what magnitude, it gives to the theme of redemption, that he who has undertaken the salvation of man was the brightness of the Father's glory, the express image of his person! How, then, can Heaven regard those who neglect so great a salvation, wrought out for man at such infinite cost? To neglect to lay hold on the rich blessings of heaven is to refuse, to set at naught, him who was equal with the Father, the only one who could save fallen man. O, shall we through neglect of Christ throw away our one chance for eternal life? Shall we scorn divine mercy, and trample underfoot the Son of God, and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing? {RH, November 28, 1912 par. 2}

The divine Author of salvation left nothing incomplete in the plan; every phase of it is perfect. The sin of the whole world was laid upon Jesus, and divinity gave its highest value to the suffering of humanity in Jesus, that the whole world might be pardoned through faith in the Substitute. The most guilty need have no fear that God will not pardon, for because of the efficacy of the divine sacrifice the penalty of the law will be remitted. Through Christ the sinner may return to allegiance to God. How wonderful is the plan of redemption in its simplicity and fulness! It not only provides for the full pardon of the sinner, but also for the restoration of the transgressor, making a way whereby he may be accepted as a son of God. Through obedience he may be the possessor of love and peace and joy. His faith may unite him in his weakness to Christ, the source of divine strength; and through the merits of Christ he may find the approval of God, because Christ has satisfied the demands of the law, and he imputes his righteousness to the penitent, believing soul. The spotless robe woven in the loom of heaven covers the contrite one, and he wills to be obedient, taking the yoke of Christ, suffering as Christ suffered when he walked a man among men." {RH, November 28, 1912 par. 3}

[Gerr]

And you can't be standing in France while LIVING in the USA!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Stewart(SDA)

But if anyone trusts in the idea that faith means Christ will do everything for them "by proxy", then that person will suffer disappointment.

"by proxy", no! But by the presence of the living God Who promises to live inside you and abide with you, which relationship continues as long as one does not resist His presence. And where He abides, He provides the victory over sin.

" To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory"Colossians 1:27 KJV

As well God's commands are either demands and we have no free will, or else His commands are instructions, which if followed we will reap the blessed fruit of peace.

And likewise should we fail to follow His commands we shall reap the sorrow that comes from disobedience.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

This is how we overcome...

Mark :-)

I do not believe in commands from God that are merely mimicking the subjugation of the same tyranny that is received from the prince of darkness.

Perhaps the children of Israel can add some light to this.

"The children of Israel brought a freewill offering to the LORD, all the men and women whose hearts were willing to bring material for all kinds of work which the LORD, by the hand of Moses, had commanded to be done." Exodus 35:29 NKJV

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

Matthew 11:28-30 KJV

Blessings!

As well God's commands are either demands and we have no free will, or else His commands are instructions, which if followed we will reap the blessed fruit of peace.

And likewise should we fail to follow His commands we shall reap the sorrow that comes from disobedience.

Have you ever considered it this way LHC:

When we give God permission, He performs His commands in us...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Quote:

Here's Jack Sequeira:

And now I come to a very important point, and I want you to be clear on this. Paul is not dealing in Romans 6 with performance; he is dealing with attitude towards sin. I want you to keep this in mind. Paul is not dealing with performance, he’s dealing with attitude. I’ll tell you why.

One man's opinion. Here are Paul's OWN words: "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." Ro 6:12-14 ESV.

Is he talking ONLY of attitude? NOOOOOOO!!! You can't be truly born again and not have a change in attitude AND performance. God promised POWER so the believer can carry out what he/He wills.

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Phil 2:13 ESV " No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him." 1 Jn 3:6 ESV. Now, we either believe God's word or not. "God is not man that He should lie," Num 22:19 ESV.

Falling and struggling are NOT one and the same thing!!! As long as we are in this body, we will have sin/self to contend & struggle with. "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling [falling - KJV] and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy," Jude 24 ESV.

When we are abiding IN CHRIST, we can't/will not sin, that is the promise of the One who cannot lie. It is when we stray from His presence that we do fall. And the one who is a slave to sin remains there, to continue to take orders from sin the master. But " a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity." Prov 24:16 ESV.

Quote:

If I said, “You have no more struggles,” I would be lying to you. You know very well that you are still struggling and that you still fall. But a Christian’s performance must never be because he condones sin. In other words, our attitude towards sin must always be negative, even though in performance we fall many times.

It seems to me he is making a distinction between between willful/deliberate/in-your-face kind of disobedience from inadvertent sin, which I fully agree with.

Quote:

... I want you to be clear that Paul is not dealing here with performance.

Is he talking ONLY of attitude? NOOOOOOO!!! You can't be truly born again and not have a change in attitude AND performance. God promised POWER so the believer can carry out what he/He wills.

God has promised to act and to will within the believer, He just needs our consent.

He does not give us the Holy Spirit to "wield".

I just wanted to clarify that.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

And you can't be standing in France while LIVING in the USA!

Amen... :-)

[Dr. Rich]

I have enjoyed reading what has been posted on this thread and find the issue an important topic. Here is something to consider:

Rev. 13:3..."And the WHOLE earth was amazed and followed after the beast."

Rev. 13:4..."Who is like the beast, and WHO is able to wage war with him?"

Rev. 12:17..."And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make WAR withe REST OF HER OFFSPRING--who keep the commandments of God AND hold to the testimony (words) of Jesus."

What I see is a war. There are two sides to this war--and not a physical war--but a spiritual war. On one side is the "WHOLE EARTH" who have been deceived by the beast. Would not this include everyone?

But hold on--what I also see is that the other side of this war is the "OFFSPRING" of the Woman (Holy Spirit), those who are NOT OF THIS WORLD, but of the Kingdom of Heaven.

This is a war of humans--one side includes everyone on the earth and they have all been deceived. The other side are those who have actually been born of the Holy Spirit and they are forever NOT OF THIS WORLD, yet still in this world.

To me, this would mean that being born again by the Holy Spirit is something other than merely having faith and belief in Jesus. At this point there is no lie in their mouths for they actually know the real truth.

Therefore, people who say they have been born again right now are actually liars--for they still have sin in them because they still believe in lies.

Anyway--just something to think about.