The secret to victorious living...

[Guest]

I think "my commandments, my statutes, and my laws," covers the moral law.

It would be silly to think otherwise.

[Guest]

What's your motive? Why are you doing it? Do you expect everyone to do what you do also?

Yes I do expect everyone to leave my wife alone.

[Guest]

And yes I do expect others not to murder.

[SivartM]

I think "my commandments, my statutes, and my laws," covers the moral law.

It would be silly to think otherwise.

Right, because you wouldn't believe it if it wasn't true.

Of course, nobody ever lets the other side get away with that argument...

[Guest]

Yes I do expect others not to steal from me. If I expected you to steal from me, I wouldn't let you in my house.

[Robert]

Gen 26:5 Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Looks like Abraham might have done wrong in your book. It says he kept the commandments.

The commandments didn't exist before Sinai. I mean I can see it now (God talking to the angels): Don't commit adultery (angels) We can't...we are neither male nor female

(God talking to the angels): Don't murder

(angels): We can't because we are immortal...not of flesh and blood...we are spirit beings.

My point? There were no visible laws in heaven. Angels were made in the image of God...meaning they had a nature that perfectly reflected God's agape. None of them lived for themselves...there was perfect harmony, until Lucifer invented the principle of "self"

[Guest]

What commandments?

Ok, what commandments to you think it is referring to?

[Robert]

I think "my commandments, my statutes, and my laws," covers the moral law.

It would be silly to think otherwise.

There's no proof....You must use the context of your quote...otherwise you can make the Bible say anything by stringing verses together.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

What commandments?

Ok, what commandments to you think it is referring to?

Read the whole chapter of Genesis and note every time Abraham does something and write it down....Then see if it speaking of the moral law. That's the honest way to do it.

[Robert]

Yes I do expect others not to steal from me. If I expected you to steal from me, I wouldn't let you in my house.

And, according to the spirit of the law, you can't go to heaven if there's self-seeking in your life. So while stealing is wrong, so is self-seeking...something we all do....

Read 1 Cor 13:5

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Right' date=' faith in Christ saves + nothing....If the faith is genuine works of faith will be seen, not works of the law....

Would give us concrete examples showing the difference between works of faith and works of the law?

If I give food to the hungry, is this a work of faith or work of the law?

If I leave my neighbor's wife alone, is that a work of faith or work of the law?

When I return my tithe, is that a work of faith or work of the law?

Quote:

Abraham stood justified because his faith was real. How so? He was willing to murder Issac because he believed God would have to raise him since Issac was the promised child.

Are you saying Abraham broke the law to do works of faith?

"Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." Gen 26:4 ESV

"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place ..." Heb 11:8 ESV

"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac..." Heb 11:17 ESV

Quote:

And Rahab's faith, who was at that time a prostitute, worked because she lied about the spies and put herself in danger....That's a faith that works.... [/quote']

Are you saying that Rahab broke the law to do works of faith?

"By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies." Heb 11:31 ESV.

Excellent points Gerry

pk

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Would give us concrete examples showing the difference between works of faith and works of the law?

If I give food to the hungry, is this a work of faith or work of the law?

If I leave my neighbor's wife alone, is that a work of faith or work of the law?

When I return my tithe, is that a work of faith or work of the law?

Quote:

Abraham stood justified because his faith was real. How so? He was willing to murder Issac because he believed God would have to raise him since Issac was the promised child.

Are you saying Abraham broke the law to do works of faith?

"Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." Gen 26:4 ESV

"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place ..." Heb 11:8 ESV

"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac..." Heb 11:17 ESV

Quote:

And Rahab's faith, who was at that time a prostitute, worked because she lied about the spies and put herself in danger....That's a faith that works.... [/quote']

Are you saying that Rahab broke the law to do works of faith?

"By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies." Heb 11:31 ESV.

Excellent points Gerry

pk

Excellent point pk.

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

What commandments?

Ok, what commandments to you think it is referring to?

The moral law. If God commanded it, it's by definition a moral law. Unless it's some sort of amoral law, or moral suggestion.

[Gerr]

[Robert]

Are you saying that the 10 commandments were not known because they were not specifically spelled out?

I need proof....not speculation

[Gerr]

Quote:

The commandments didn't exist before Sinai.

Where there is no law there is no sin. So how come Cain was charged with murder? How come

the antediluvians perished because of sin? How come Joseph knew it was sin to have sex with

his master's wife?

[Robert]

How come the antediluvians perished because of sin?

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

[Steve Billiter]

The ten Commandments do go back to the time of Adam and Eve. They have been a part of Gods character from everlasting excepting perhaps the fourth, and 5th, I don’t know about the 7th either which has to do with sex.

Was it ok to kill, steal and lie a billion years ago in heaven among the angels? No. Gods law is eternal.

Exo 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Note the word, remember, that means the Sabbath had already been in effect; the commandments had not been written down before that we know of.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. This is well before Moses and Mount Sinai.

[Robert]

The ten Commandments do go back to the time of Adam and Eve.

Speculation....In heaven there's no "self"....There's only agape....Agape is the law of heaven....It's a principle, not rules written in stone.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

How come the antediluvians perished because of sin?

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Quote:

The commandments didn't exist before Sinai. - Robert

Where there is no law there is no sin. So how come Cain was charged with murder? How come

the antediluvians perished because of sin? How come Joseph knew it was sin to have sex with

his master's wife?

[Robert]

Sin

The actual meaning of this word is “missing the mark.” In Judges 20:16 the Hebrew word sin (translated in the KJV as “not miss”) is used true to its meaning. Used in a spiritual sense, sin is missing the divine mark or coming “short of the glory of God,” which is His selfless love or agape [Romans 3:23].

Since all men are born spiritually “bent” (shapen in iniquity), it is not difficult to see what Romans 3:10, 12 says: there is none righteous and no one who does good. Man’s sinful condition makes it impossible for him to do anything but sin, unless he has a Savior. That is why the gospel is man’s only hope of salvation. While man does have a free will to choose between accepting Christ’s righteousness offered in the gospel or rejecting it, he does not have a choice between doing sin or geniune righteousness. Man is born a slave to sin and no matter how hard he wills or tries, he will fall short of the divine mark [Romans 7:15-24]. For further study read the following texts: Job 15:14-16; Psalm 14:2, 3; Isaiah 1:4-6; Jeremiah 17:9; Mark 7:21-23.

Transgression

This word means a deliberate violation of the law, or willful disobedience. Transgression pre-supposes that one has the knowledge of the law. In the spiritual realm, transgression is the violation of the moral law, or ten commandments of God [see 1 John 3:4]. A knowledge of God’s law makes sin to be “transgression.” Note the following:

* Galatians 3:19. The law was given to make sin into transgression.

* James 2:9. The law convinces us we are transgressors.

* Romans 3:20. Through the law we have the knowledge of sin.

* Romans 5:20. The law did not solve the sin problem but made it “abound” all the more.

* Romans 7:7-13. The law exposes our sinful condition and reveals our total bankruptcy with regards to righteousness.

Since sin is a deceiver, it would be impossible for sinful man to fully realize his condition unless God revealed it to him. This He has done by giving the law. The law was never given as a means of salvation or to deal with sin. The law is incapable of producing righteousness in us because of man’s sinful state [Romans 8:3]; the only way that man can be saved is in Christ. The Scriptures clearly state that “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight” [Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16; 3:21-22; 5:4]. It cannot make man holy and good because he is sold under sin [Romans 7:12, 14]. But God gave the law to sinful man to be “our schoolmaster [or escort] to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith” [Galatians 3:24]. JS

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

The ten Commandments do go back to the time of Adam and Eve.

Speculation....In heaven there's no "self"....There's only agape....Agape is the law of heaven....It's a principle, not rules written in stone.

And what are the 10 commandments? Laws of hate?

[Woody]

Quote:

The ten Commandments do go back to the time of Adam and Eve. They have been a part of Gods character from everlasting excepting perhaps the fourth, and 5th, I don’t know about the 7th either which has to do with sex

Either the ten were there or the ten were not there. Which are you saying? First you say they were and then you state some that weren't. I am confused.

[Gerr]

So what law did the antediluvians or the people before Sinai tell them their behavior was sinful? What law condemned violence?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Speculation....In heaven there's no "self"....There's only agape....Agape is the law of heaven....It's a principle' date=' not rules written in stone. [/quote']

And what are the 10 commandments? Laws of hate?

The law not only condemns murder...if you hate someone in the eyes of the law you are a murderer....That's at the thought level. Hence your thoughts must be pure...your motive correct.....

Gerry, you went to college to become a doctor. That's nice, but the law of God asks "why?"

Well, Gerry replies, I wanted to help folks and I wanted a nice home...money in the bank, etc...

And the law will say, "So your motive was polluted with selfishness"?

So the law is much more than the mere letter....