The secret to victorious living...

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

You're being "in Christ" is equivalent to Jesus, when here in the flesh, being "in the Father." We could argue, by analogy, that Jesus Christ, as long as He was "in the Father" did not have the option to sin. Since He was always "in the Father," He never had the option to sin. Since He did not have the option to sin, He could not have sinned. So this leads to the conclusion that Jesus Christ, while in the flesh, could not sin. Since this conclusion is false, there must be an error earlier, which is in the assertion "Jesus Christ, when He was in the Father, did not have the option to sin." Therefore Jesus Christ did have the option to sin. Likewise you, even though you are in Christ, have the option to sin.

We always have the option to sin. We don't have to exercise that option. We can choose instead to remain in Christ, but we always have the option to sin. [/quote']

Hello Pnat. :-)

That would have been covered by the "when" I am in Christ.

You see, when we are "in Christ", we have to be taken "out of Christ".

Jesus was never taken "out of the Father".

So did not sin.

Was the potential there for Him to step "out of the Father"?

Yes.

But He did not.

His victory is our victory.

We are "in Christ", by accepting this simple process:

1. Our great need so that we turn away from all self effort.

2. The merits or blood of Christ as our passport into the abiding experience.

3. The Faith of Jesus, which is a gift founded in the Love of God that is shed in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

So as long as we remain under the blood, all the promises of God are ours and we walk victoriously.

The error in the liberal camp is that they stop here:

So as long as we remain under the blood....

And miss this:

...all the promises of God are ours and we walk victoriously.

Why?

Because of unbelief.

Unbelief that is taught.

God is perfectly able to give me victory, as long as I depend completely on Him to supply it.

Mark :-)

I'm not disagreeing with the victory over sin part. I don't think there's any need for us to willfully sin. (I think we're constrained to ignorantly sin until we become aware and convinced of what we're doing wrong).

I'm just taking issue with the idea that there's every a time when we don't have the option to sin. We always have the option to sin, whether in Christ or not. This is simply a matter of free will. We are tempted, and we can respond to that temptation by resisting it or not. We don't have to step out of Christ before we are tempted.

Also, how do we step out of Christ anyway, if it's not be willfully sinning?

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Norman

Mark,

I think we can have total victory over known sin, but not over all sin. In other words there are things in us that we just don't know about. We are so selfish and sinful that we do not see these things. As we grow in Grace we learn of these things and overcome them. Those are the sins that Christ died for, His death does not cover willful sin nor does He place His robe of righteousness on anyone who willfully sins.

God is looking for a people who are willing to do what He desires/His will.

Norman

But if God makes all sin known, then total victory is possible?

:-)

I agree with Norman's point. I think a big part of the reason for the 1888 message God sent in, well, 1888 was exactly this point. It was eye salve, to make known the hidden sins (i.e., hidden to one's own eyes).

As Christ and His righteousness are made clearer, that simultaneously makes more clear our own shortcomings. Unfortunately, for many, this was unwelcome news. Jones spoke of this in his 1893 GCB sermons.

[Woody]

Quote:

"I think we can have total victory over known sin, but not over all sin."

"Like Him. This points to the fulfillment of God's plan for fallen man -- restoration to the divine image...It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed AT THE SECOND COMING." 7 BC 649

"Sanctification is a lifelong process. Perfection now is ours only in Christ, but the ultimate, all-comprehensive transformation of our lives into the image of God will take place at the Second Advent ...

Neither Christlike character traits nor faultess behaviour is the ground of our acceptance with God. Saving righteourness comes from the one righteous Man Jesus and is conveyed to us by the Holy Spirit. We can contribute nothing to Christ's gift of righteousness - we can only receive it. No one other than Christ is righteous; independent human righteousness is only filthy rags. " Seventh-Day Adventists Believe p. 145-6

[Woody]

Quote:

"The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." AA 241

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish, foolishness; but unto us which are saved, it is the power of God." CE 94

" I will now tell it to you.” “God has raised one Man from the dead, the Lord Jesus Christ, that he might destroy death, expiate sin, and shut the gates of hell. This is the work of salvation. Christ has vanquished! This is the joyful news! And we are saved by his work, and not by our own." {GC88 152.2}

"Those who are saved will be saved because Jesus has paid the full debt; and man can do nothing, absolutely nothing, to merit salvation. " {ST, November 10, 1890 par. 1}

" He is our Rock. It is by his might that we conquer, and by his righteousness that we are saved." PC 58

[Guest]

Quote:

"Like Him. This points to the fulfillment of God's plan for fallen man -- restoration to the divine image...It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed AT THE SECOND COMING." 7 BC 649

It will be completed in that we will be given a glorious body at that time. For the ones who live through the time of trouble, that will be the only thing that is lacking.

[Woody]

That's not what it says Richard.

[John317]

Quote:

"Like Him. This points to the fulfillment of God's plan for fallen man -- restoration to the divine image...It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed AT THE SECOND COMING." 7 BC 649

It will be completed in that we will be given a glorious body at that time. For the ones who live through the time of trouble, that will be the only thing that is lacking.

Here's the part in the ellipses, which Redwood neglected to quote:

"It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation (see on Rom. 8: 29; Col. 3: 10; see DA 37, 38, 391, 827; COL. 194)."

Ellen White is very clear that we cannot wait until heaven before we obtain victory over sin and temptation. If we do, it will be too late.

She says, "... the character you bear in probationary time will be the character you will have at the coming of Christ. If you would be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in your society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now." Adventist Home, p. 16.

[Guest]

Check out what this says:

"Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above, are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil." {GC88 425}

[Robert]

Check out what this says:

"Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above, are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil." {GC88 425}

And what happens if they aren't perfect through their own diligent effort? If you say they are lost then EGW is teaching OC principles. She is an enemy of the gospel...

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Quote:

"Like Him. This points to the fulfillment of God's plan for fallen man -- restoration to the divine image...It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed AT THE SECOND COMING." 7 BC 649

It will be completed in that we will be given a glorious body at that time. For the ones who live through the time of trouble, that will be the only thing that is lacking.

Here's the part in the ellipses, which Redwood neglected to quote:

"It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation (see on Rom. 8: 29; Col. 3: 10; see DA 37, 38, 391, 827; COL. 194)."

I'm sure it is His desire, but it is not a condition of eternal life or you have Christ placing believers back under law...

[Woody]

Exactly Rob ...

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Check out what this says:

"Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above, are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil." {GC88 425}

And what happens if they aren't perfect through their own diligent effort? If you say they are lost then EGW is teaching OC principles. She is an enemy of the gospel...

Can you agree with the following, from COL pp. 280-282?

Quote:

We can never be saved in indolence and inactivity. There is no such thing as a truly converted person living a helpless, useless life. It is not possible for us to drift into heaven. No sluggard can enter there. If we do not strive to gain an entrance into the kingdom, if we do not seek earnestly to learn what constitutes its laws, we are not fitted for a part in it. Those who refuse to co-operate with God on earth would not co-operate with Him in heaven. It would not be safe to take them to heaven.

There is more hope for publicans and sinners than for those who know the word of God but refuse to obey it. He who sees himself a sinner with no cloak for his sin, who knows that he is corrupting soul, body, and spirit before God, becomes alarmed lest he be eternally separated from the kingdom of heaven. He realizes his diseased condition, and seeks healing from the great Physician who has said, "Him that cometh to Me, I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37. These souls the Lord can use as workers in His vineyard.

The son who for a time refused obedience to his father's command was not condemned by Christ; and neither was he commended. The class who act the part of the first son in refusing obedience deserve no credit for holding this position. Their frankness is not to be regarded as a virtue. Sanctified by truth and holiness, it would make men bold witnesses for Christ; but used as it is by the sinner, it is insulting and defiant, and approaches to blasphemy. The fact that a man is not a hypocrite does not make him any the less really a sinner. When the appeals of the Holy Spirit come to the heart, our only safety lies in responding to them without delay. When the call comes, "Go work today in My vineyard," do not refuse the invitation. "Today if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts." Heb. 4:7. It is unsafe to delay obedience. You may never hear the invitation again.

And let none flatter themselves that sins cherished for a time can easily be given up by and by. This is not so. Every sin cherished weakens the character and strengthens habit; and physical, mental, and moral depravity is the result. You may repent of the wrong you have done, and set your feet in right paths; but the mold of your mind and your familiarity with evil will make it difficult for you to distinguish between right and wrong. Through the wrong habits formed, Satan will assail you again and again.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Here's the part in the ellipses, which Redwood neglected to quote:

"It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation (see on Rom. 8: 29; Col. 3: 10; see DA 37, 38, 391, 827; COL. 194)." [/quote']

I'm sure it is His desire, but it is not a condition of eternal life or you have Christ placing believers back under law...

Compare 1 Cor. 6: 9-11 and Rev. 22: 15.

"Outside [of God's kingdom] are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie."

These as well as those mentioned in 1 Cor. 6: 9-11 will have gained the victory over sin and every temptation. The Bible says that those who keep doing those sins and don't gain the victory over them by God's grace won't be on the inside of the city.

It describes in Rev. 12: 17 and 14: 12 the kind of people who will be on the inside. Among their characteristics are the keeping of God's commandments and loyalty to Jesus.

[Robert]

Compare 1 Cor. 6: 9-11 and Rev. 22: 15.

"Outside [of God's kingdom] are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie."

These as well as those mentioned in 1 Cor. 6: 9-11 will have gained the victory over sin and every temptation. The Bible says that those who keep doing those sins and don't gain the victory over them by God's grace won't be on the inside of the city.

It describes in Rev. 12: 17 and 14: 12 the kind of people who will be on the inside. Among their characteristics are the keeping of God's commandments and loyalty to Jesus.

Maybe, but it doesn't add to what Christ did 2000 years ago. Also, it isn't you...it isn't the current SDA church. It's the 144,000....

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Originally Posted By: Norman

Mark,

I think we can have total victory over known sin, but not over all sin. In other words there are things in us that we just don't know about. We are so selfish and sinful that we do not see these things. As we grow in Grace we learn of these things and overcome them. Those are the sins that Christ died for, His death does not cover willful sin nor does He place His robe of righteousness on anyone who willfully sins.

God is looking for a people who are willing to do what He desires/His will.

Norman

But if God makes all sin known, then total victory is possible?

:-)

Mark I do not think that will happen, here's why. 1Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

The more we know Him the more we see our defects, faults, selfishness and sin. Before Jesus returns we will not see Him as He is because of the sin damaged minds we have been born with and damaged ourselves. We just cannot do it. It is not in God's plan that we do at that point. And it is not necessary in the controversy between Christ and Satan.

God can say to the universe, "Look at them they are ruined because of sin and selfishness, but see how they love My Son and I! See how they do all that they know to do and do not cave into temptation. They may not be perfectly sinless but they are safe to inherit eternal life." (Please understand, I am not saying we will be saved while committing any known sin, read my previous posts on this thread for clarity)

Only by their fruit can the vindication of God happen. God doesn't need to know this, but because of this controversy it is needed and reveals the heart to the onlooking universe.

What God is looking for are those who will do His will and be loyal till death. Or to put it another way, Rev 14:12b here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Norman

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I'm not disagreeing with the victory over sin part. I don't think there's any need for us to willfully sin. (I think we're constrained to ignorantly sin until we become aware and convinced of what we're doing wrong).

I'm just taking issue with the idea that there's every a time when we don't have the option to sin. We always have the option to sin, whether in Christ or not. This is simply a matter of free will. We are tempted, and we can respond to that temptation by resisting it or not. We don't have to step out of Christ before we are tempted.

Also, how do we step out of Christ anyway, if it's not be willfully sinning?

I agree that we always have the option to sin.

But we must remember the 144,000 do not sin in the time of trouble...

This is not about the option.

This is about the possibility of "not sinning".

We also have to remember, that when sin is revealed to us, at that point, it can be handed over to God.

Once it is revealed there is no need to be bound by it.

God reveals it so that He can give us victory over it...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Quote:

"Like Him. This points to the fulfillment of God's plan for fallen man -- restoration to the divine image...It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed AT THE SECOND COMING." 7 BC 649

It will be completed in that we will be given a glorious body at that time. For the ones who live through the time of trouble, that will be the only thing that is lacking.

Sometimes it is better not to allow oneself to get sidetracked by the same old technique...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Quote:

"Like Him. This points to the fulfillment of God's plan for fallen man -- restoration to the divine image...It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed AT THE SECOND COMING." 7 BC 649

It will be completed in that we will be given a glorious body at that time. For the ones who live through the time of trouble, that will be the only thing that is lacking.

Here's the part in the ellipses, which Redwood neglected to quote:

"It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation (see on Rom. 8: 29; Col. 3: 10; see DA 37, 38, 391, 827; COL. 194)."

Ellen White is very clear that we cannot wait until heaven before we obtain victory over sin and temptation. If we do, it will be too late.

She says, "... the character you bear in probationary time will be the character you will have at the coming of Christ. If you would be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in your society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now." Adventist Home, p. 16.

Thank you John...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Check out what this says:

"Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above, are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil." {GC88 425}

And what happens if they aren't perfect through their own diligent effort? If you say they are lost then EGW is teaching OC principles. She is an enemy of the gospel...

It is the diligent effort of the "new man" being discussed here Robert.

The Born Again believer has a work to do, that work is directed and empowered by God, but the individuals will must constantly give consent.

This is how it can be that God works and we work, yet it is of no credit to us.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: John317

Here's the part in the ellipses, which Redwood neglected to quote:

"It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation (see on Rom. 8: 29; Col. 3: 10; see DA 37, 38, 391, 827; COL. 194)." [/quote']

I'm sure it is His desire, but it is not a condition of eternal life or you have Christ placing believers back under law...

It says "design" not "desire".

The first would indicate a plan, the second wishful thinking.

This is not Gods wishful thinking but His intention being discussed here.

Did you misread the above quote?

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But if God makes all sin known, then total victory is possible?

:-) [/quote']

Mark I do not think that will happen, here's why. 1Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Norman

How then do the 144,000 go through the time of trouble Norman?

If they have not overcome everything in them, then Satan can cause them to fall.

I think sometimes we miss the fact of being able to abide in Christ fully. God can so change our hearts and minds that our response to all sin is gone.

He can be so present with us, so intimately leading us that we can live in victory, because we live in Him.

Mark :-)

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

And what happens if they aren't perfect through their own diligent effort? If you say they are lost then EGW is teaching OC principles. She is an enemy of the gospel... [/quote']

It is the diligent effort of the "new man" being discussed here Robert.

The Born Again believer has a work to do, that work is directed and empowered by God, but the individuals will must constantly give consent.

This is how it can be that God works and we work, yet it is of no credit to us.

Mark

You didn't answer the question....

[Robert]

If they have not overcome everything in them, then Satan can cause them to fall.

Baloney! We are complete "in Christ"....This is our ticket now and in the time of trouble....Please stop bugging believers with this preoccupation with perfectionism....IT takes their eyes off Christ and His righteousness that we already have by faith alone.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

You didn't answer the question....

That is because the question asked was incorrect and did not really apply to the quote because it confused the old mans capabilities with the Born Again mans capabilities in Christ...

No one, in the strength of the old man, can overcome.

But all, as new men in Christ, can overcome and will need to engage in the diligent effort that God requires, so that they can surrender their wills to God moment by moment and receive the victory.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

If they have not overcome everything in them, then Satan can cause them to fall.

Baloney! We are complete "in Christ"....This is our ticket now and in the time of trouble....Please stop bugging believers with this preoccupation with perfectionism....IT takes their eyes off Christ and His righteousness that we already have by faith alone.

We are only complete in Christ, when we abide in Him and Him in us.

If anyone believes that being in Christ gives them permission to sin, then they are not in Christ.

Christ does not have a personal relationship with such a person.

This is what Jesus said so plainly, that none have an excuse to think otherwise.

Mark