The secret to victorious living...

[John317]

Quote:

What you're advocating constitutes Babylon.

In fact, don't worry about sinning-- God will forgive all sinning. Go on sinning willfully until Christ comes. Just love, love, love. Great news?"

I've never stated this. Nor do I believe it. Now can you stop stating that I do believe it. What does it take to stop the abuse? This statement is a lie from Satan. He alone wants us to believe this. Why do we as Christians want to knock someone in the ground and promote division and hatred by misrepresentation?

What does it take to stop this? I do not believe the above and never have and have never made such statements. So to ALL of you ... please stop it. For you all know it is false. Can this be the end of it?

Please give the post# and title of the thread where you got the above quote.

[Woody]

#176937

Re: Are there different varieties of belief within Adventism?

[John317]

Quote:

What you're advocating constitutes Babylon.

In fact, don't worry about sinning-- God will forgive all sinning. Go on sinning willfully until Christ comes. Just love, love, love. Great news?"

I've never stated this. Nor do I believe it. Now can you stop stating that I do believe it. What does it take to stop the abuse? This statement is a lie from Satan. He alone wants us to believe this. Why do we as Christians want to knock someone in the ground and promote division and hatred by misrepresentation?

What does it take to stop this? I do not believe the above and never have and have never made such statements. So to ALL of you ... please stop it. For you all know it is false. Can this be the end of it?

Here is the context of the exchange, July 15, 2008-- if anyone is interested:

REDWOOD:(Post#176897) There needs to be room for all in God's Church. The fine details of truth will be worked out when we See His Face.

GERRY CABALO: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Wouldn't that just be dandy. While some members are teaching the visible return of Jesus, others will be teaching that His coming is secret. While I'm teaching that there will be an end to sin and sinners, others will be teaching everlasting suffering in hell. Your openness may be commendable, but if there's not enough confusion in the Adventist church because of disparate beliefs, think what chaos your proposition would bring!

JOHN317:(post#176937) What you're advocating constitutes Babylon. Everyone's "truth" is just as good as anyone else's. "You're OK, I'm OK, Everybody's OK." In fact, don't worry about sinning-- God will forgive all sinning. Go on sinning willfully until Christ comes. Just love, love, love. Great news?

But is it really? Is that the gospel that we find presented in the Bible? Is that the Third Angels Message? Is this what we see in the books of Daniel and Revelation?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

“In His divine arrangement, through His unmerited favor, the Lord has ordained that good works shall be rewarded. We are accepted through Christ’s merits alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of love, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merit of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works, in and of themselves have no merit. When we have done all that it is possible for us to do, we are to count ourselves as unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed by the strength of our own sinful natures.” 5 B.C.1122.

sky

Interesting quote Sky. Could you tell us who the author is?

The author of those words is Ellen G. White. sky got a few words and letters wrong, but other than that, Ellen White wrote them.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now notice, that a long as the "seed" remains in him, he will not sin.

It is helpful to understand that the Greek verbs, poiei and dunatai hamartanein, are present tense, and should be understood to mean, in the first instance, "practice," and in the second instance, "habitually commit sin." It does not mean that the genuine believer will never commit sin. 1 John 1: 5-10 makes this clear. It means he won't continue to practice deliberate, willful sin. See the Amplified Bible, below:

9 No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

I often wonder if we have been led to this view to balance the scripture John317?

John here is dealing with different issues (1 John: 5-10).

When we say we have no sin, we lie.

If we say we have not sinned, we lie.

This is the context here.

But 1 John 3:9 is "after" this aknowledgement.

It does not contradict those previous points at all.

But now, as long as we abide in Christ, we will not sin.

Yes we still have sin in our "members".

But the old man that responded to that sin, is dead.

Yes we sinned in the past.

But now we do not need to sin.

Why?

Because greater is He that is in us, than he that is in the world...

So none of this is contradictory at all, and we do not even have to make the tense mean anything else.

If we simply understand that when we are IN CHRIST, we are in a position of Victory...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

But Mark. When you use victory in your post above ... you are referring to your belief that we are saved by our works. Scripture tells us much about those who believe in Salvation by works. You have frequently stated here about your belief that we are saved by our works and not by the blood of Jesus. I will not judge you and state where you are headed with that kind of belief system. But I will pray for you.

I have never once stated we are saved by our works Redwood.

Not once.

We are saved through the merits of Christ only.

The merits of Christ, opens the door to "Righteousness by Faith", which will produce obedience in the life.

Which is manifested in obedience to the commandments of God.

That has always been my position since I have been on this board and I have never stated otherwise.

I suspect you just do not understand this theological position and confuse it with another of phariseeism?

Mark

[Twilight]

Excellent post and quotes, sky. As a people we can't hear enough about Christ's righteousness and His merits. Christ worked out in His life a perfect character, and that character He puts to our account. By faith the sincere believer in Christ is credited with the Savior's perfect Sabbath keeping, as well as for all the rest of His perfect obedience to the Father.

By the way, this robe of Christ's righteousness is not a cover for the practice of willful, deliberate sins. See COL 316. Christ's righteousness will not cover one cherished sin.

Not only is it imputed.

It is also imparted.

It is imparted into the life of the believer by faith...

So Jesus will give me that "Sabbath observance" as I claim it by the blood of the lamb...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: John317

Excellent post and quotes, sky. As a people we can't hear enough about Christ's righteousness and His merits. Christ worked out in His life a perfect character, and that character He puts to our account. By faith the sincere believer in Christ is credited with the Savior's perfect Sabbath keeping, as well as for all the rest of His perfect obedience to the Father.

Yes. But that is just the beginning. As we have all heard you state ... once this is credited to the believer ... the believer then has to stand on his own merits. And if he ever sins again then he is lost. This is salvation by works. It can be hidden for awhile but it's ugly head comes out.

Praise God ... when I sin ... I can go and ask forgiveness. I have often felt bad for those with the Salvation by Works theories such as what you have stated. I would have to believe that suicide must be high in those kinds of individuals. The only other option is to just stop believing in Christ.

How sad.

For one sin brother Redwood, one sin...

Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden of Eden and the whole world has never stopped suffering.

That is how God views sin.

He does not want to give us a "sin-repent" cycle, that is the "back-up" or safety net.

He wants to give us victory over sin.

But if we do not even believe it is necessary, then how can we receive it?

Some people just want to lay in the safety net all the time and they think that "that" is the "high wire" experience...

God bless,

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Yes. But that is just the beginning. As we have all heard you state ... once this is credited to the believer ... the believer then has to stand on his own merits. And if he ever sins again then he is lost. This is salvation by works. [/quote']

But of course I have never stated this. On the contrary.

Agreed.

I have never heard you state this John317.

I have heard you charged with it, but never actually seen it in one of your posts.

Mark

[Twilight]

The Lord has sent a most precious to us. In the following statement there is found everything we need to know about the matter of salvation: faith, grace, works, and merits.

“In His divine arrangement, through His unmerited favor, the Lord has ordained that good works shall be rewarded. We are accepted through Christ’s merits alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of love, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merit of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works, in and of themselves have no merit. When we have done all that it is possible for us to do, we are to count ourselves as unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed by the strength of our own sinful nature.” 5 B.C.1122.

sky

Amen...

When you review the opening post I made Sky, you will see that this is foundational.

But if we do not have this foundation, (and I am not talking about the cheap grace that some think is the merits of Christ), we can never move into the overcoming experience in Christ.

Why?

Because we have to be in Christ and Him in us, and the only way that is possible, is through the shed blood of the lamb...

Mark

[Twilight]

Quote:

What you're advocating constitutes Babylon.

In fact, don't worry about sinning-- God will forgive all sinning. Go on sinning willfully until Christ comes. Just love, love, love. Great news?"

I've never stated this. Nor do I believe it. Now can you stop stating that I do believe it. What does it take to stop the abuse? This statement is a lie from Satan. He alone wants us to believe this. Why do we as Christians want to knock someone in the ground and promote division and hatred by misrepresentation?

What does it take to stop this? I do not believe the above and never have and have never made such statements. So to ALL of you ... please stop it. For you all know it is false. Can this be the end of it?

Then please state your views on the matter clearly and succinctly Redwood.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

What you're advocating constitutes Babylon.

In fact, don't worry about sinning-- God will forgive all sinning. Go on sinning willfully until Christ comes. Just love, love, love. Great news?"

I've never stated this. Nor do I believe it. Now can you stop stating that I do believe it. What does it take to stop the abuse? This statement is a lie from Satan. He alone wants us to believe this. Why do we as Christians want to knock someone in the ground and promote division and hatred by misrepresentation?

What does it take to stop this? I do not believe the above and never have and have never made such statements. So to ALL of you ... please stop it. For you all know it is false. Can this be the end of it?

Here is the context of the exchange, July 15, 2008-- if anyone is interested:

REDWOOD:(Post#176897) There needs to be room for all in God's Church. The fine details of truth will be worked out when we See His Face.

GERRY CABALO: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Wouldn't that just be dandy. While some members are teaching the visible return of Jesus, others will be teaching that His coming is secret. While I'm teaching that there will be an end to sin and sinners, others will be teaching everlasting suffering in hell. Your openness may be commendable, but if there's not enough confusion in the Adventist church because of disparate beliefs, think what chaos your proposition would bring!

JOHN317:(post#176937) What you're advocating constitutes Babylon. Everyone's "truth" is just as good as anyone else's. "You're OK, I'm OK, Everybody's OK." In fact, don't worry about sinning-- God will forgive all sinning. Go on sinning willfully until Christ comes. Just love, love, love. Great news?

But is it really? Is that the gospel that we find presented in the Bible? Is that the Third Angels Message? Is this what we see in the books of Daniel and Revelation?

Thank you for the full context John317.

It is important that we do not quote one another out of context.

This is not the way of Jesus.

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Mark, regarding your post in response to me (which it wouldn't let me post, because it's too many levels deep) it doesn't sound to me that we're saying something different. It's just that you said

Quote:

When I am in Christ, I cannot sin.

It is only when I am drawn away from Christ that the option to sin is there.

which I disagree with, as written, although I don't think I disagree with what you actually meant by these words.

The scripture is here Pnat:

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now notice, that a long as the "seed" remains in him, he will not sin.

In other words, when Christ is in us and we remain in Him, we stand in the position of Christ's victory.

We start from that position.

Our understanding of dying daily can detract from that.

Yes there is a daily death to sin, or a reckoning of death to sin, but it is from the position of victory.

We have victory, we have to stand in that.

Do you understand what I am saying?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The scripture is here Pnat:

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now notice, that a long as the "seed" remains in him, he will not sin.

In other words, when Christ is in us and we remain in Him, we stand in the position of Christ's victory.

We start from that position.

Our understanding of dying daily can detract from that.

Yes there is a daily death to sin, or a reckoning of death to sin, but it is from the position of victory.

We have victory, we have to stand in that.

Do you understand what I am saying?

Mark :-)

I don't think John is saying anything like this (by this I don't mean John was contradicting what you said, but simply that this isn't what he was talking about). A little later in 1 John 3 we read:

Quote:

14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

I think John's point is a simple one, which is that if one is a follower of Christ, born again, one should love as Christ loved. John gives a very practical example of this. So when he says that someone who is born again does not sin, he means he doesn't do the sort of thing verse 17 is talking about. He is speaking very practically, and not intending to develop a theological argument regarding sinning viz a viz being in Christ. This is very clear to me from simply reading the context, or considering the epistle as a whole.

Regarding the seed abiding in the one who is born again, the following comes to mind:

Quote:

God is love. Like rays of light from the sun, love and light and joy flow out from Him to all His creatures. It is His nature to give. His very life is the outflow of unselfish love...

He tells us to be perfect as He is, in the same manner. We are to be centers of light and blessing to our little circle, even as He is to the universe. We have nothing of ourselves, but the light of His love shines upon us, and we are to reflect its brightness. "In His borrowed goodness good," we may be perfect in our sphere, even as God is perfect in His.

Jesus said, Be perfect as your Father is perfect. If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God's children, begotten by His Spirit, you live by the life of God. In Christ dwells "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9); and the life of Jesus is made manifest "in our mortal flesh" (2 Corinthians 4:11). That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him.(MB 77-78;ellipsis and emphasis mine)[/quote']

I think this is communicating the same thought as John. It's not that one who is born of God is not physically able to sin, but this is not what a child of God is like. A child of God is like God (in character). He doesn't sin because God doesn't sin, and he has been begotten of God. The child of God is like his Father.

Once again I'll add that I'm not sure I'm really disagreeing necessarily with your overall viewpoint here, just with some specific applications of Scripture texts and wording.

The problem is pnat, I am not sure exactly where you think we differ?

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

We are saved through the merits of Christ only.

The merits of Christ, opens the door to "Righteousness by Faith", which will produce obedience in the life.

Which is manifested in obedience to the commandments of God.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

The problem is pnat, I am not sure exactly where you think we differ?

I don't agree with your specific application of John's writing here (i.e. 1 John 3:9), as I understand it. But this is a technical point. I agree with the points you've been making about faith and works, as I understand it. It sounds like you're saying the same thing I believe, that we are saved by faith, not by works, but saving faith is a faith which produces works. The works testify to the genuineness of the faith.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

What you're advocating constitutes Babylon.

In fact, don't worry about sinning-- God will forgive all sinning. Go on sinning willfully until Christ comes. Just love, love, love. Great news?"

I've never stated this. Nor do I believe it. Now can you stop stating that I do believe it. What does it take to stop the abuse? This statement is a lie from Satan. He alone wants us to believe this. Why do we as Christians want to knock someone in the ground and promote division and hatred by misrepresentation?

What does it take to stop this? I do not believe the above and never have and have never made such statements. So to ALL of you ... please stop it. For you all know it is false. Can this be the end of it?

Then please state your views on the matter clearly and succinctly Redwood.

Mark

This is a good question! I've been struggling a bit to find out what's being disagreed with. I think both sides are saying that righteousness is by faith alone, not by works, or by faith plus works.

One difference I've seen is that one side is saying that the robe of Christ's righteousness is only imputed, whereas the other is saying it's both imputed and imparted.

There also appears to be some difference as to whether or not it's possible to be completely victorious over sin.

In addition to both sides agreeing that salvation is by faith, it also appears to me that both sides agree that it's not OK for a Christian to willfully sin.

[skyblue888]

Over the years I have met some adventists who were going about and letting others know that they were living a sinless life.

I myself believe that the third angel's message will prepare a people to stand before the Lord without spot or wrinkle or any such thing at His coming. However I do believe and understand that these people will be the last ones to boast of any sinlessness. Instead they will acknowledge themselves as "less than the least of all saints" and "the chiefs of sinners" though they would sacrifice their own life rather then knowingly commit one wrong act! (See C.O.L.160) Eph.3:8; 1 Tim.1:15. See C.O.L.160.

"As we behold Christ, pierced for our sins, we shall see that we cannot break the law and remain in His favor; we shall feel that as sinners we must lay hold of the merits of Christ and cease to sin. Then we are drawing nigh to God. As soon as we have a correct view of the love of God, we shall have no disposition to abuse it." 1 S.M.312.

However, "Those who are really seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge the thought that they are sinless. Their lives may be irreprochable, they may be living representatives of the truth which they have accepted; but the more they discipline their minds to dwell upon the character of Christ, and the nearer they approach to His divine image, the more clearly will they discern its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own defects. When persons claim that they are sanctified, they give sufficient evidence that they are far from being holy. They fail to see their own weakness and destitution. They look upon themselves as reflecting the image of Christ, because they have no true knowledge of Him. The greater the distance between them and their Saviour, the more righteous they appear in their own eyes." E.G. White, The Sanctified Life, pp.7,8.

God's true people will be unassuming because they will be clothed with the righteousness of Christ which makes them meek and lowly, little in their own eyes and they feel that they are the least of all saints and even the chief of sinners for they have a sense of their exceeingly sinful nature.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

I think anyone who has caught a true glimpse of God's character will feel like Paul did, who proclaimed himself the "chief of sinners."

[skyblue888]

Paul was constantly aware that he was possessed of a nature that was capable of the worse sins, and that unless he was kept by the power of God through faith in the merits of Christ he would be in the same condition as the worse of sinners, even the chief of sinners.

Paul walked with God. He was one of those who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act. See C.O.L.160.

sky

[Woody]

Quote:

What you're advocating constitutes Babylon.

And what you are advocating is legalism.

[Woody]

Quote:

The author of those words is Ellen G. White. sky got a few words and letters wrong, but other than that, Ellen White wrote them.

I would like to see a reference then. Obviously she didn't write them in the Bible Commentary.

[Guest]

Everything that suggests any kind of obedience to God, is not legalism.

[Woody]

Everything that suggests any kind of obedience to God, is not legalism.

It is if you make it God and require it for salvation. This idea that we are saved by Faith PLUS our works is simply from Satan himself to make us think that we can add something to salvation . Salvation is totally from God. We can't add to it.

This is what some here on this Forum fail to grasp. And Satan wants this very issue to be clouded with legalism.

[John317]

Quote:

The author of those words is Ellen G. White. sky got a few words and letters wrong, but other than that, Ellen White wrote them.

I would like to see a reference then. Obviously she didn't write them in the Bible Commentary.

The SDA Bible Commentary publishes Ellen White Comments toward the end of each volume of the Commentary. The quote you ask about is in the chapter on Luke 17, and the original was published in the Review and Herald, January 29, 1895.