Gods part and our co-operation...

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

By sinless character' date=' you mean not even unintentional/inadvertent mistakes?

[/quote']

Romans 7 is an example of sinless character....

but then we are given the solution in chapter 8

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

etc.

[teresaq]

A lot of people take Matthew 5:48 out of context to support perfectionism, but what Jesus is talking about in that passage is loving your enemies. Most perfectionists just thrash their enemies.

yeah, thats too bad isnt it?

i wonder why we miss lukes definition of that "perfection"?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Far from being an example of sinless character, the man of Romans 7 is lamenting his spiritual condition that no matter how he wills to do good he always ends up doing the evil that he hates. Now if that is an example of sinless character, then there is no hope for us ever overcoming.

And here lies the problem - your understanding of character.

Character is not referring to performance. Character reflects what's on the heart, even though outwardly one is failing....That is why I brought up the man of Romans 7.

[teresaq]

And here lies the problem - your understanding of character.

Character is not referring to performance. Character reflects what's on the heart, even though outwardly one is failing....That is why I brought up the man of Romans 7.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

You must keep in mind that Romans 8:1 is speaking of the man of Romans 7. The man is failing to live the Christian life because he is depending upon his will power instead of the Holy Spirit. He hasn't learned to "Walk in the Spirit". Does that mean he is lost? No! Why not? For one he is a believer according to "the inward man". Paul always uses that phrase to describe a converted person.

Secondly he delights in God's law....The unconverted hate the God's law or use it to bring glory to themselves (as in the Pharisees). You would never hear a Pharisee say, "I know that in me, that is, in my flesh dwells nothing good."

So the man of Romans 7 mind(heart) is right with God. It has a new direction.....It has a change in attitude....That's what "character" means.

Now, the question is, is there any condemnation for the believer who in his mind loves God's law, but in performance is failing?

Romans 8:1 says "there is no condemnation" for those who are "in Christ Jesus"! Why? Because "in Christ" he is qualified for heaven now and in the judgment.

[Robert]

character reflects what i am on the inside....

The only change in the believer is in the mind (heart). That's character....His nature does not change one bit until the 2nd coming.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

You must keep in mind that Romans 8:1 is speaking of the man of Romans 7. The man is failing to live the Christian life because he is depending upon his will power instead of the Holy Spirit. He hasn't learned to "Walk in the Spirit". Does that mean he is lost? No! Why not? For one he is a believer according to "the inward man". Paul always uses that phrase to describe a converted person.

Secondly he delights in God's law....The unconverted hate the God's law or use it to bring glory to themselves (as in the Pharisees). You would never hear a Pharisee say, "I know that in me, that is, in my flesh dwells nothing good."

So the man of Romans 7 mind(heart) is right with God. It has a new direction.....It has a change in attitude....That's what "character" means.

Now, the question is, is there any condemnation for the believer who in his mind loves God's law, but in performance is failing?

Romans 8:1 says "there is no condemnation" for those who are "in Christ Jesus"! Why? Because "in Christ" he is qualified for heaven now and in the judgment.

hmmm, hope you are not offended but i need some documentation for that, not that i am disagreeing with your thought at all.

but it seems to me, added or not, the thought is the same. if you disagree please enlighten me to as to why.

Quote:

You must keep in mind that Romans 8:1 is speaking of the man of Romans 7.

lets not blow my overall good vibes about you, ok? i obviously did know that it was referring to the same man of romans 7 or wouldnt have put it.

i still appreciate the points you brought up, tho. :)

[Robert]

but it seems to me, added or not, the thought is the same. if you disagree please enlighten me to as to why.

Let's start with Romans 7:24

Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, I myself in my mind [heart] am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

In Romans 7 there are two forces, diametrically opposed:

"The law of my mind" - the converted mind and its desires to live a life of "agape"

"The law of sin" - which is completely opposite of agape. Simply it means to be bent-towards-self.

The problem is that the converted mind is no match for the sin nature. And so those who try to use their will power to defeat temptation meet in defeat.

So in his mind he loves God's law, but when the rubber meets the road the flesh get its way. In other words when it comes to experience...to performance...he is failing. Is there any condemnation for such a believer?

8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus [NIV, ASV, NASB, NRS, RSV AND MANY MORE]

Why no condemnation?

2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Did you get that? "In Christ" "the law of the Spirit" (the power of the Spirit) set my humanity free "from the law of sin" and its consequences - death.

That's the truth as it is "in Christ"

Now, if you add "for those who walk according to the Spirit" then there's condemnation because clearly this believer is failing to do that....

So the King James Bible takes good news for sinners and makes it into bad news.....In other words there's no hope of the struggling sinner.....It's legalism and it's not in the original text.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

but it seems to me, added or not, the thought is the same. if you disagree please enlighten me to as to why.

Let's start with Romans 7:24

Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, I myself in my mind [heart] am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

In Romans 7 there are two forces, diametrically opposed:

"The law of my mind" - the converted mind and its desires to live a life of "agape"

"The law of sin" - which is completely opposite of agape. Simply it means to be bent-towards-self.

The problem is that the converted mind is no match for the sin nature. And so those who try to use their will power to defeat temptation meet in defeat.

So in his mind he loves God's law, but when the rubber meets the road the flesh get its way. In other words when it comes to experience...to performance...he is failing. Is there any condemnation for such a believer?

8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus [NIV, ASV, NASB, NRS, RSV AND MANY MORE]

Why no condemnation?

2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Did you get that? "In Christ" "the law of the Spirit" (the power of the Spirit) set my humanity free "from the law of sin" and its consequences - death.

That's the truth as it is "in Christ"

Now, if you add "for those who walk according to the Spirit" then there's condemnation because clearly this believer is failing to do that....

So the King James Bible takes good news for sinners and makes it into bad news.....In other words there's no hope of the struggling sinner.....It's legalism and it's not in the original text.

[Gerr]

Quote:

course now the problem is, what exactly are we defining sin as? is our view limited and vague? are we being educated daily as to what sin is? or do we prefer to stay limited and vague?

are we resisting knowing what sin is?

Let me categorically state as clearly as I can. As long as we are in this mortal flesh, sinless perfection is a pipe dream. But there is a kind of sin that I believe every believer must be free of to be in the kingdom. You can find the definition of this kind of sin in Nu 15:22-31, & 1 Jn 3:6-10 (see especially in the Amplified version on this one.} not sure but it looks like youre disagreeing with me somehow, maybe not.

not real sure about the two passages put together and how you understand them either. but it does look like that is how you put 2 and 2 together to come up with whatever number you come up. i cant say which number that is because i dont know.

I gave those Scriptures to show that NO ONE as I understand the Scriptures can be sinning deliberately/willfully/high-handedly and be saved. This is rebellion! Anyone who is still living in rebellion can't be in a position of converted. But as long as we are in this flesh we will make mistakes, inadvertent sins. The only character perfection possible for us in this life is the perfect character of Christ which He offers on our behalf. I believe these are the sins that is described as "not unto death" in 1 Jn 5. No, I'm not trying to add 2+2 to come up with any number other than 4!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

character reflects what i am on the inside....

The only change in the believer is in the mind (heart). That's character....His nature does not change one bit until the 2nd coming.

So then, you don't believe in the new birth experience?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The only change in the believer is in the mind (heart). That's character....His nature does not change one bit until the 2nd coming.

So then' date=' you don't believe in the new birth experience?

[/quote']

That is the new birth....Your mind takes a u-turn from self-centeredness towards agape....It's a process called sanctification by faith....It is experiencing Christ...putting on Christ...revealing to unbelievers Christ in me so that they can say, "I like that" and accept Christ....There are too many gospels out there that work off of fear and/or legalistic motives.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So then' date=' you don't believe in the new birth experience?

[/quote']

That is the new birth....Your mind takes a u-turn from self-centeredness towards agape....It's a process called sanctification by faith....It is experiencing Christ...putting on Christ...revealing to unbelievers Christ in me so that they can say, "I like that" and accept Christ....There are too many gospels out there that work off of fear and/or legalistic motives.

What does it mean to "put on Christ" if not to put on a new nature?

What does it mean to have "God's seed abiding" in the believer?

What does it mean to have "Christ in you?"

What does it mean to have the Holy Spirit dwelling in the believer?

"His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire." 2 Pet 1:3-4 ESV

[teresaq]

Quote:

course now the problem is, what exactly are we defining sin as? is our view limited and vague? are we being educated daily as to what sin is? or do we prefer to stay limited and vague?

are we resisting knowing what sin is?

Let me categorically state as clearly as I can. As long as we are in this mortal flesh, sinless perfection is a pipe dream. But there is a kind of sin that I believe every believer must be free of to be in the kingdom. You can find the definition of this kind of sin in Nu 15:22-31, & 1 Jn 3:6-10 (see especially in the Amplified version on this one.} not sure but it looks like youre disagreeing with me somehow, maybe not.

not real sure about the two passages put together and how you understand them either. but it does look like that is how you put 2 and 2 together to come up with whatever number you come up. i cant say which number that is because i dont know.

I gave those Scriptures to show that NO ONE as I understand the Scriptures can be sinning deliberately/willfully/high-handedly and be saved. This is rebellion! Anyone who is still living in rebellion can't be in a position of converted. But as long as we are in this flesh we will make mistakes, inadvertent sins. The only character perfection possible for us in this life is the perfect character of Christ which He offers on our behalf. I believe these are the sins that is described as "not unto death" in 1 Jn 5. No, I'm not trying to add 2+2 to come up with any number other than 4!

hmmmm, some serious miscommunication going on. interesting. :)

[Woody]

Quote:

hmmmm, some serious miscommunication going on. interesting.

:)

Yes. But very typical.

[Gerr]

Nothing new.

[pnattmbtc]

What does it mean to "put on Christ" if not to put on a new nature?

What does it mean to have "God's seed abiding" in the believer?

What does it mean to have "Christ in you?"

What does it mean to have the Holy Spirit dwelling in the believer?

[Gerr]

Yes, thank you. One cannot do that without a change in nature.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

character reflects what i am on the inside....

The only change in the believer is in the mind (heart). That's character....His nature does not change one bit until the 2nd coming.

2Pe 1:4 By which are given unto us exceedingly great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

[skyblue888]

"The only condition upon which the freedom of man is possible is that of becoming one with Christ." D.A.466.

So in order for us to become one with Christ, the Lord Himself has given the command: "Put on Christ." "Put on the whole armour of God." "Put on love."

But we cannot put on Christ ourselves. So how is Christ put on?

In the beginning darkness was upon the face of the deep and the Lord said, "Let there be light! And there was light." "He spoke and it was done! He commanded and it stood forth!" Psalm 33:9.

To all those who come to God with a sense of their great need trusting wholly in the all-sufficient merits of Christ for their acceptance with God, the command is given, "Put on Christ." "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus."

And it is immediately so if we do not interpose an evil heart of unbelief. And the divine life thus imparted is in like manner sustained, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Thus we read, "The law of ten precepts of the greatest love ever presented to man is the voice of God from Heaven speaking to the soul in promise." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.1, p.1105.

"All Thy commandments are righteousness." Ps.119:172. And "Righteousness is right doing." C.O.L.312. God's right doing. "All the words of My mouth are with righteousness." Prov.8:8. And "Righteousness is love and love is the light and the life of God." M.B.18. And "The life of God in the soul is man's only hope." M.H.115.

sky

Richard, yes, by receiving the law of ten precepts as the voice of God speaking to the soul in promise, we become partakers of the divine nature. The law written with ink or engraved on stones is a ministration of condemnation and death (convincing us of sin; "The letter kills") (2 Cor.3:5-7) but proceeding out of the mouth of God and received as such it is a ministry of life and righteousness. It is the ministry of the Spirit. (John 6:63) and "The Spirit gives life." (2 Cor.3:8,9) Proceeding out of His mouth the commandments are exceedingly great and precious promises by which we become partakers of Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam and Eve forfeited by transgression. (2 Peter 1:4; 1 Cor.15:47-49)

[Robert]

What does it mean to have "Christ in you?"

The mind...the heart of Christ, which is a process.....It is experiencing Christ....However, our human nature does not change one iota.

[skyblue888]

Our human nature does not change one iota but it is brought into subjection to God and every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.

sky

[Robert]

Our human nature does not change one iota but it is brought into subjection to God and every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.

sky

Only if you perfectly surrender....

[skyblue888]

And I suppose that in your neck of the woods no one can perfectly surrender, right?

sky

[Robert]

And I suppose that in your neck of the woods no one can perfectly surrender, right?

sky

Have you? Has all "earthliness" been removed? Two statements:

“Their earthliness must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” [4SP 438]

...Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self)....Because Satan is a liar and a deceiver there is much of this world that appears to be good.... [Jack S.]