Gods part and our co-operation...

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

What does it mean to "put on Christ" if not to put on a new nature?

What does it mean to have "God's seed abiding" in the believer?

What does it mean to have "Christ in you?"

What does it mean to have the Holy Spirit dwelling in the believer?

Excellent questions! I think these expressions speak of the transformation God works in us that enables us to appreciate and desire spiritual things (i.e., things pertaining to God and His kingdom). To speak of Christ, or the Holy Spirit, dwelling in us is not speaking of His literally building a little house in our chest or brain to live in, but is a metaphor of the unity that we can have with Him, as expressed here:

Quote:

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. (COL 312)

To my mind, this is speaking of the same thing.

i appreciate the clarifications.

i would like to clarify that we dont receive a new nature, we retain our fallen nature, until glorification.

there may be some misunderstanding between "new heart" and "new nature".

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The only change in the believer is in the mind (heart). That's character....His nature does not change one bit until the 2nd coming.

2Pe 1:4 By which are given unto us exceedingly great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature' date=' having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. [/quote']yes, partakers....

we certainly do not claim to now have divine natures, do we? keeping in mind that only the Father, Son and HS are divine....

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Our human nature does not change one iota but it is brought into subjection to God and every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.

sky

Only if you perfectly surrender....

im not sure how "perfectly" i surrender, but i do agree that it makes all the difference in the world.

course, worrying about how "perfectly" i surrender or do anything else is a little silly, isnt it?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

They receive the word with readiness, but they fail of assimilating its principles. Its influence is not abiding. The Spirit works upon man's heart, according to his desire and consent implanting in him a new nature; but the class represented by the foolish virgins have been content with a superficial work.(COL 411)

Quote:

Christ supplies the lifeblood of the heart, and Christ and the Holy Spirit give nerve power. Begotten again unto a lively hope, imbued with the quickening power of a new nature, the soul is enabled to rise higher and still higher. Paul's prayer to God for the Ephesians was, "That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man; that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God." Ephesians 3:16-19.(CH 593)

Quote:

Its effect is not like a dash of color here and there upon the canvas; the whole character is to be transformed, the image of Christ is to be revealed in words and actions. A new nature is imparted. Man is renewed after the image of Christ in righteousness and true holiness....(6 SDABC 1117, ellipsis original)

Quote:

. Transformation of character is wrought through the operation of the Holy Spirit, which works upon the human agent, implanting in him, according to his desire and consent to have it done, a new nature. The image of God is restored to the soul, and day by day he is strengthened and renewed by grace, and is enabled more and more perfectly to reflect the character of Christ in righteousness and true holiness.(RH 9/17/95)

The above are a few instances of the SOP speaking of "new nature" in the same sense Gerry seemed to be intending it in his question. "Nature" is a rather vague word. It really depends upon the context.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

What does it mean to have "Christ in you?"

The mind...the heart of Christ, which is a process.....It is experiencing Christ....However, our human nature does not change one iota.

Agreed!!! Human nature does not change. That's why it has to die! That's why a new principle, a new nature, a new seed - a divine seed is implanted in the corrupt nature. As this seed germinates & takes hold and nurtured, it gets bigger & stronger. And as the old nature is starved and neglected, it gets weaker and weaker, dying daily. That's experiencing Christ. One cannot have His heart and mind and be feeding and nurturing the old man at the same time. This is akin to the process of what took place when Satan implanted his evil nature in Adam, only in the reverse.

[Robert]

Human nature does not change. That's why it has to die!

Human nature is alive and well....It is not dead even in the believer. What the believer experiences is a new mind and when given over to Spirit he can further experience power over the flesh.

[Robert]

"Nature" is a rather vague word.

Here's an excellent quote:

In Christ were united the divine and the human--the Creator and the creature. The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man. [LHU 345]

When Christ, who is God, assumed our fallen humanity two natures collided. The nature of Adam, the transgressor, and the nature of God.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Far from being an example of sinless character, the man of Romans 7 is lamenting his spiritual condition that no matter how he wills to do good he always ends up doing the evil that he hates. Now if that is an example of sinless character, then there is no hope for us ever overcoming.

No Romans 7 is the experience of someone who has been a member of the church in good standing perhaps for many years even and yet is not overcoming and that is why he cries out, Who shall deliver me?

The deliverance is found in Christ by trusing wholly in the all-sufficient merits of His infinite sacrifice.

sky

Indeed.

Romans 7 is Israel in the "wilderness".

Romans 8 is Isreal in the "promised land".

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

You must keep in mind that Romans 8:1 is speaking of the man of Romans 7. The man is failing to live the Christian life because he is depending upon his will power instead of the Holy Spirit. He hasn't learned to "Walk in the Spirit". Does that mean he is lost? No! Why not? For one he is a believer according to "the inward man". Paul always uses that phrase to describe a converted person.

Secondly he delights in God's law....The unconverted hate the God's law or use it to bring glory to themselves (as in the Pharisees). You would never hear a Pharisee say, "I know that in me, that is, in my flesh dwells nothing good."

So the man of Romans 7 mind(heart) is right with God. It has a new direction.....It has a change in attitude....That's what "character" means.

Now, the question is, is there any condemnation for the believer who in his mind loves God's law, but in performance is failing?

Romans 8:1 says "there is no condemnation" for those who are "in Christ Jesus"! Why? Because "in Christ" he is qualified for heaven now and in the judgment.

Romans 8 provides the qualification for those who are the "sons of God".

Those that are led by the Holy Spirit...

Not those that are failing in the flesh.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Let's start with Romans 7:24

Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, I myself in my mind [heart'] am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

In Romans 7 there are two forces, diametrically opposed:

"The law of my mind" - the converted mind and its desires to live a life of "agape"

"The law of sin" - which is completely opposite of agape. Simply it means to be bent-towards-self.

The problem is that the converted mind is no match for the sin nature. And so those who try to use their will power to defeat temptation meet in defeat.

So in his mind he loves God's law, but when the rubber meets the road the flesh get its way. In other words when it comes to experience...to performance...he is failing. Is there any condemnation for such a believer?

8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus [NIV, ASV, NASB, NRS, RSV AND MANY MORE]

Why no condemnation?

2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Did you get that? "In Christ" "the law of the Spirit" (the power of the Spirit) set my humanity free "from the law of sin" and its consequences - death.

That's the truth as it is "in Christ"

Now, if you add "for those who walk according to the Spirit" then there's condemnation because clearly this believer is failing to do that....

So the King James Bible takes good news for sinners and makes it into bad news.....In other words there's no hope of the struggling sinner.....It's legalism and it's not in the original text.

i understand what you are saying based on experience. i understand very clearly the legalism involved in the war between this and that.

but i also understand, by experience, complete deliverance. i no longer have a desire, or urge, for certain things, but am still struggling, in prayer, over other issues now coming to light, that i didnt see before. temptation hits for the old stuff every once in a while and usually when im down, but it doesnt have the force it used to. the temptation just basically isnt. but so others understand better it is very mild and not overwhelming as before. for a second it is attractive, but other thoughts come in and it loses its attraction.

for me, and if others see it differently, ok. walking after the spirit as opposed to walking after the flesh just means that my focus is on God and not me anymore. but that is the tricky part. it is the rare individual who "gets" it. most of us have to work through our various issues, those layers, that prevent us from seeing. or density like a cataract, that prevents light from getting through, that has to surgically removed but God will only do it a little at a time. He leads on as we are able, Gen 33:14... I will lead on softly, according as the cattle that goeth before me and the children be able to endure, until I come unto my lord unto Seir.

most of the time our focus is really on the flesh, even if it is in a different sense. before our attention was on the flesh to satisfy it. now our attention is on the flesh to deny it. but our attention is still not on God. but when we learn how to get our eyes on God, the cross, His life, oh blessed assurance is mine!!

if others see it differently that is ok. but based on my experience God is able. Hes just not able according to mans understanding of spiritual things, if that made sense to anyone.

Quote:

The problem is that the converted mind is no match for the sin nature. And so those who try to use their will power to defeat temptation meet in defeat.

i so agree!!

well that is how i see it.

I am a little bit suspicious that you are still describing the Romans 7 experience Teresa...

Where is the Holy Spirit in your experience?

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So then' date=' you don't believe in the new birth experience?

[/quote']

That is the new birth....Your mind takes a u-turn from self-centeredness towards agape....It's a process called sanctification by faith....It is experiencing Christ...putting on Christ...revealing to unbelievers Christ in me so that they can say, "I like that" and accept Christ....There are too many gospels out there that work off of fear and/or legalistic motives.

That is still "I" doing it Robert.

"I" has to die and the new "I" has to be received.

A focus of mind, is not the new birth experience.

The Holy Spirit dwelling within is the new birth experience.

Then the focus changes quite naturally, to the things of God, (not removing the action of the will of course).

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The mind...the heart of Christ' date=' which is a process.....It is experiencing Christ....However, our human nature does not change one iota. [/quote']

Agreed!!! Human nature does not change. That's why it has to die! That's why a new principle, a new nature, a new seed - a divine seed is implanted in the corrupt nature. As this seed germinates & takes hold and nurtured, it gets bigger & stronger. And as the old nature is starved and neglected, it gets weaker and weaker, dying daily. That's experiencing Christ. One cannot have His heart and mind and be feeding and nurturing the old man at the same time. This is akin to the process of what took place when Satan implanted his evil nature in Adam, only in the reverse.

This is a fundamental point and Gerry clearly understands this.

We are not "evolutionary" Christians, where the "old man" is turned into the "new man".

We are "crucified" (put to death), and "created" (raised in newness of life/born again) Christians.

Most Christians are failing in their battle with sin because they are trying to turn the "old man" into the "new man".

This is impossible.

All that happens is a weary, dreary sin-repent existance, with no true all encompassing victory over sin...

I call it "one day victory".

"One day I will be "victorious""...

Does not work.

Then there is the other error, when realisation that victory is not possible when trying to turn the old man into the new man, that error which states:

"Victory is not possible."

I say to you that present this, that victory is possible, you are just not understanding how victory is given...

Mark

[Woody]

And I suppose that in your neck of the woods no one can perfectly surrender, right?

sky

In my neck of the woods ... no one has. Of course any thing is possible. There is no excuse for sin period. But God knew that no one would perfectly surrender and that is why He sent His Son.

[Woody]

Quote:

course, worrying about how "perfectly" i surrender or do anything else is a little silly, isnt it?

AMEN. Thank you Teresa.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Human nature does not change. That's why it has to die!

Human nature is alive and well....It is not dead even in the believer. What the believer experiences is a new mind and when given over to Spirit he can further experience power over the flesh.

Yes, indeed! Because we are still in this corrupt body. BUT, Paul says:

"Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:11 NKJ

The same word "reckon" is the same word used in Gal 3:6, "Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." How was he reckoned/counted/considered righteous? The record is clear. It was because he simply took God at His word, not on the basis of how successful he was in obeying God's laws, even though God's own testimony is that "Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes & laws." Gen 26:5 ESV. His faith was backed up by action.

Just as God reckoned Abraham righteous because of his faith although he was imperfect in performance, likewise we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin even though we are still in this body of flesh. We are not accounted righteous by how successful we are in keeping the law, we are under grace after all. However, we are also to reckon ourselves alive to God, submitting our instruments as instruments of righteousness.

That's why he says, "I die daily." Nay, we have to die moment by moment. That's why Jesus says, "Watch and pray." That's

why Peter says, 1 Pet 5:8 "Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." The fight of faith is a daily, nay, moment by moment battle because until we shed this body, we have to contend with it.

[teresaq]

I am a little bit suspicious that you are still describing the Romans 7 experience Teresa...

Where is the Holy Spirit in your experience?

im not sure you are truly referring to the HS...

but thank you for sharing that. :)

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I am a little bit suspicious that you are still describing the Romans 7 experience Teresa...

Where is the Holy Spirit in your experience?

im not sure you are truly referring to the HS...

but thank you for sharing that.

Good one Teresa.

[Guest]

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that we should no longer serve sin.

The old man must be kilt!

[wayfinder]

Is there anybody who is able to show me where Jesus taught this, or anything close to this, when He was teaching in Israel?

[Guest]

Sure,

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

[Guest]

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

Therefore, the old man must be kilt!

[wayfinder]

WHAT?

[Steve Billiter]

Is there anybody who is able to show me where Jesus taught this, or anything close to this, when He was teaching in Israel?

Jesus as God gave all of the Bible and the SOP.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Ephesians 4:22-24. {FLB 139.1}

Conversion is a work that most do not appreciate. It is not a small matter to transform an earthly, sin-loving mind and bring it to understand the unspeakable love of Christ, the charms of His grace, and the excellency of God, so that the soul shall be imbued with divine love and captivated with the heavenly mysteries. When he understands these things, his former life appears disgusting and hateful. He hates sin, and, breaking his heart before God, he embraces Christ as the life and joy of the soul.

He renounces his former pleasures. He has a new mind, new affections, new interest, new will; his sorrows, and desires, and love are all new. . . . Heaven, which once possessed no charms, is now viewed in its riches and glory; and he contemplates it as his future home, where he shall see, love, and praise the One who hath redeemed him by His precious blood. The works of holiness, which appeared wearisome, are now his delight. The Word of God, which was dull and uninteresting, is now chosen as his study, the man of his counsel. It is as a letter written to him from God, bearing the inscription of the Eternal. His thoughts, his words, and his deeds are brought to this rule and tested. He trembles at the commands and threatenings which it contains, while he firmly grasps its promises and strengthens his soul by appropriating them to himself. {FLB 139.2}

When the transforming grace of Christ is upon the heart, a righteous indignation will take possession of the soul because the sinner has so long neglected the great salvation that God has provided for him. He will then surrender himself, body, soul, and spirit, to God and will withdraw from companionship with Satan, through the grace given him of God. {FLB 139.3}

All need to understand the process of conversion. The fruit is seen in the changed life.

140

{FLB 139.4}

[pnattmbtc]

Is there anybody who is able to show me where Jesus taught this, or anything close to this, when He was teaching in Israel?

Good question! What's "this"? (i.e., what is it that you are understanding is being said, that you're asking about Jesus Christ's teaching).

The reason I think this is a good question is I think too often Jesus' teachings are given pre-eminence as they should be. No one taught the Gospel as clearly as Jesus Christ.

[Guest]

WHAT?

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.