Gods part and our co-operation...

[Robert]

The good news is that we don't have to allow the "old self" or sin to "reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. ....For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." Rom 6 ESV.

In other words because I am not under law, it can't give sin permission to do me in.....The good news is my position in Christ....Christian living, although good news when leaving behind besetting sin, is not the good news because we are never perfect as God is perfect.....Therefore, it becomes good advice....

[John317]

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

To me this language simply means that people in heaven won't be thinking of themselves as "number 1" and they won't be considering their wishes above everyone else's desires. But that doesn't mean individuals won't have any desires or wishes or thoughts about themselves.

God has people like that now, right here on earth. It's the Holy Spirit in their life that makes them this way. In themselves apart from the Spirit they would be just as selfish and self-centered as most of society.

[Gerr]

Amen. Thanks.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The good news is that we don't have to allow the "old self" or sin to "reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. ....For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." Rom 6 ESV.

In other words because I am not under law, it can't give sin permission to do me in.....The good news is my position in Christ....Christian living, although good news when leaving behind besetting sin, is not the good news because we are never perfect as God is perfect.....Therefore, it becomes good advice....

It is you and I that give sin permission to do us in.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The good news is that we don't have to allow the "old self" or sin to "reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. ....For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." Rom 6 ESV.

In other words because I am not under law, it can't give sin permission to do me in.....The good news is my position in Christ....Christian living, although good news when leaving behind besetting sin, is not the good news because we are never perfect as God is perfect.....Therefore, it becomes good advice....

i would think we would all be agreed on that.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

For the umpteenth time let me categorically state once again: As long as we are in this flesh, we will continue to make mistakes. But willfull/deliberate/intentional/"high-handed sins? 1 Jn 3 is too unequivocal for me. One cannot be or remain a citizen of the Kingdom while LIVING a life contrary to its principles.

As for "selflessness" as in NO self, I for one do not believe the Scriptures call for it. The commandment is: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. But if by "selflessness" you mean death of the "old self", the one that needs to be crucified with Christ, the "self" that thinks the world revolves around it, then, yes, that is what we will always be contending with as long as we have breath and will not shed it until glorification. The good news is that we don't have to allow the "old self" or sin to "reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. ....For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." Rom 6 ESV.

Excellent, excellent post Gerry.

"willfull/deliberate/intentional/"high-handed sins? One cannot be or remain a citizen of the Kingdom while LIVING a life contrary to its principles."

This statement kind of reminds me of my mafia friends (when I lived in NY) that felt as long as they went to church and confessed, every once in awhile, everything was alright. Than it was OK to go out the next day and repeat what they did they day before. Because they are covered, and they could do willful/deliberate/intentational/high handed sins.

pk

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Excellent, excellent post Gerry.

"willfull/deliberate/intentional/"high-handed sins?

but how does it relate to the posts that it is in "answer" to? :)

[Woody]

Quote:

but how does it relate to the posts that it is in "answer" to?

Oh but Teresa ... don't spoil their fun. They were having such a good time.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The old man was killed Richard. :-)

Have you ever considered that this is "past tense"?

Mark [/quote']

"Is crucified" is in the Greek aorist tense which according to Webster is: ao•rist \ˈā-ə-rəst\ n

[LL & Gk; LL aoristos, fr. Gk, fr. aoristos undefined, fr. a + horistos definable, fr. horizein to define — more at horizon] 1581 : an inflectional form of a verb typically denoting simple occurrence of an action without reference to its completeness, duration, or repetition

Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. Includes index. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

When I consider the multitudes of translations, this verse is translated as past tense in all but a few exceptions. :-)

Hence my comment.

Mark

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

but how does it relate to the posts that it is in "answer" to?

Here is how. See above sequence of posts.

[Gerr]

It is true most English translation render the Greek aorist tense to a simple past tense because there is no exact English equivalent.

[Twilight]

It is true most English translation render the Greek aorist tense to a simple past tense because there is no exact English equivalent.

I have dug a little deeper and it appears it is a "one time event" or "it only happened once", which is why it is placed in the past.

In other words, it happened once.

So if it happened once, then it does not happen everyday. :-)

My thoughts are based on this informaton from the following link:

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm

Aorist Tense

The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense. 'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

but how does it relate to the posts that it is in "answer" to? [/quote']

Here is how. See above sequence of posts.

well if you are not able to see the difference in the points being made then you arent. :)

[Woody]

Teresa ... I have to wonder if it isn't "willfull/deliberate/intentional" ???

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

It is true most English translation render the Greek aorist tense to a simple past tense because there is no exact English equivalent.

In other words, it happened once.

So if it happened once, then it does not happen everyday. :-)

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm

Aorist Tense

The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense. 'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. ....

[Gerr]

Aren't - what?

So discerning? So smart? So careful? So .......?

[teresaq]

Aren't - what?

So discerning? So smart? So careful? So .......?

its probably time to move on, but thank you for sharing that. :)

[karl]

There are not many that will disagree that God needs our "co-operation", in the matter of salvation.

But what does that co-operation consist of?

What is it we "do" when we co-operate with God?

Over to you...

God bless,

Mark :-)

In the heavenly councils it has been decided by what means and methods the grace of Christ shall prove effectual in saving the soul. And it is clear that unless the sinner consents to be drawn, unless he will cooperate with divine agencies, the end will not be attained. The work to be done is a united work. The divine and the human are to work together, and the sinner is to depend upon grace, while rendering willing obedience to the dictates of the Spirit of God.

God gives opportunities; success depends upon the use made of them. The openings of Providence must be quickly discerned and eagerly entered. There are many who might become mighty men, if, like Daniel, they would depend upon God for grace to be overcomers, and for strength and efficiency to do their work.

The Spirit of God is not commissioned to do our part of the work, either in willing or doing. It is the work of the human agent to cooperate with divine agencies. As soon as we incline our will to harmonize with God's will, the grace of Christ is supplied to cooperate with our resolve. But it is not to be a substitute to do our work,--to work in spite of our resolutions and actions. Therefore, our success in the Christian life will not be because of an abundance of light and evidence, but will depend upon our acceptation of the light given, upon the rousing of the energies, and operating with the heavenly ministers appointed of God to work for the salvation of the soul.

Willing and doing are bound together. The salvation of the soul requires the blending of human and divine strength. God does not propose to do the work that man can do to meet the standard of righteousness. Man has a part to act. Humanity must unite and cooperate with divinity. Grace and sufficiency have been abundantly provided for every soul. But in order to receive this, man must unite with his divine Helper. Unless of his own accord man consents to renounce his sinful practices, Christ cannot take away his sin. Man must heartily cooperate with God, willingly obeying his laws, showing that he appreciates the great gift of grace. Feeling his dependence upon God, having faith in Christ as his personal Saviour, expecting efficiency and success only as he shall keep the Lord ever before him,--it is thus that man complies with the injunction, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

His grace is given to work in us to will and to do, but never as a substitute for our effort. Our souls are to be aroused to cooperate. The Holy Spirit works in us, that we may work out our own salvation. This is the practical lesson the Holy Spirit is striving to teach us.