Victory over sin... One day in the future...

[Twilight]

Do we have something wrong with our theology?

The bible tells us that we should walk without sinning.

But the most optimistic "teaching" I hear from Adventists, is that it will be possible "One day in the future..."

Now let me ask some questions:

1. How long as an individual, should one wait, before they enter into the victorious experience? 1 year, 10 years, 30 years? How long is it supposed to take exactly?

2. This church has been proclaiming the gospel for 160+ years, when will it start gaining the "victory over sin"?

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We often state victory is "possible", but how often do we state that we "have victory"?

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Now the only conclusion I can come to, is that the bible says one thing and our experience says another as a people.

So what is wrong?

Is it the bible or our theology?

Maybe there are some things we need to understand that we are just not getting?

Your thoughts?

Mark :-)

[Gail]

This has something to do with the "in Christ" mode, does it not? :)

[Gail]

Jesus told us to "seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you." Is victory over sin one of those things?

[Twilight]

This has something to do with the "in Christ" mode, does it not?

It does Sister. :-)

[Twilight]

Jesus told us to "seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you." Is victory over sin one of those things?

I never looked at it like that, but I rather suspect that it comes when we find, rather than added.

But I welcome being corrected. :-)

Mark

[skyblue888]

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you." Matt.6:33.

In context, (Matt.6:25-32) the "all these things" are the things that people worry about in this life, food, clothing, a roof over their heads, etc etc.

To seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness is to seek Christ and His righteousness, as it is written "He has translated us into the Kingdom of His dear Son." Col.1:13. "The kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21. "The kingdom of God is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Rom.14:16.

So to be "in Christ" is to be in the kingdom, in the kingdom of grace.

"One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other, Christ and His righteousness." E.G. White, Review and Herald, Dec.23,1890.

How do we lay hold of Christ and His righteousness?

"That living faith is essential for our salvation that we should lay hold upon the merits of the blood of the crucified and risen Saviour, upon Christ, our righteousness." Faith and Works, p.64.

So we lay hold upon Christ, who then clothes us with the robe of His righteousness, by laying hold upon the merits of His shed blood, the merits of His sacrifice. We lay hold upon His merits by simply claiming them, day by day.

"If we are conscious of the weakness of self, we shall not be self-confident and reckless of danger, but we shall feel the necessity of seeking the source of our strength, Jesus our righteousness. We shall come in repentance and contrition with a despairing sense of our own finite weakness, and learn that we must daily apply to the merits of the blood of Christ that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." E.G. White, Faith and Works, p.86.

To have Christ and His rihteousness is to have victory over sin and then all the things we need for this life, food, clothing, etc etc, will be added unto us. What a beautiful promise!

I have to agree with you Mark that victory over sin is not among the things added unto us but already gained by having Christ and His rightouesness both imputed and imparted to us.

how's that?

sky

[teresaq]

Jesus told us to "seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you." Is victory over sin one of those things?

my first thought was no and that was what i intended to say as i hit quote, but thoughts started coming....

the verse is referring to physical needs, but it would seem that as we are seeking the kingdom of God then He will reveal to us more and more what true sin is.

i know when i first started this walk sin was drinking, smoking and such but i dont remember hearing about the heart sins.

i discovered those in reading my bible and sop.

not sure if you stated that as for or against, but i think victory over sin is progressive, unless someone believes they knew exactly what all sin comprised of and left it off at the moment of conversion. which brings up another issue.

conversion.

do we have the atheists foxhole conversion?

a conversion to doctrines?

or the conversion of seeing Christ on the cross as in His character? which is a very faulty portrayal of exactly what that means.

[Gerr]

1 Jn 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. NASB

[Twilight]

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you." Matt.6:33.

In context, (Matt.6:25-32) the "all these things" are the things that people worry about in this life, food, clothing, a roof over their heads, etc etc.

To seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness is to seek Christ and His righteousness, as it is written "He has translated us into the Kingdom of His dear Son." Col.1:13. "The kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21. "The kingdom of God is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Rom.14:16.

So to be "in Christ" is to be in the kingdom, in the kingdom of grace.

"One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other, Christ and His righteousness." E.G. White, Review and Herald, Dec.23,1890.

How do we lay hold of Christ and His righteousness?

"That living faith is essential for our salvation that we should lay hold upon the merits of the blood of the crucified and risen Saviour, upon Christ, our righteousness." Faith and Works, p.64.

So we lay hold upon Christ, who then clothes us with the robe of His righteousness, by laying hold upon the merits of His shed blood, the merits of His sacrifice. We lay hold upon His merits by simply claiming them, day by day.

"If we are conscious of the weakness of self, we shall not be self-confident and reckless of danger, but we shall feel the necessity of seeking the source of our strength, Jesus our righteousness. We shall come in repentance and contrition with a despairing sense of our own finite weakness, and learn that we must daily apply to the merits of the blood of Christ that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." E.G. White, Faith and Works, p.86.

To have Christ and His rihteousness is to have victory over sin and then all the things we need for this life, food, clothing, etc etc, will be added unto us. What a beautiful promise!

I have to agree with you Mark that victory over sin is not among the things added unto us but already gained by having Christ and His rightouesness both imputed and imparted to us.

how's that?

sky

I would agree with that Sky :-)

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you." Matt.6:33.

In context, (Matt.6:25-32) the "all these things" are the things that people worry about in this life, food, clothing, a roof over their heads, etc etc.

To seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness is to seek Christ and His righteousness, as it is written "He has translated us into the Kingdom of His dear Son." Col.1:13. "The kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21. "The kingdom of God is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Rom.14:16.

So to be "in Christ" is to be in the kingdom, in the kingdom of grace.

"One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other, Christ and His righteousness." E.G. White, Review and Herald, Dec.23,1890.

How do we lay hold of Christ and His righteousness?

"That living faith is essential for our salvation that we should lay hold upon the merits of the blood of the crucified and risen Saviour, upon Christ, our righteousness." Faith and Works, p.64.

So we lay hold upon Christ, who then clothes us with the robe of His righteousness, by laying hold upon the merits of His shed blood, the merits of His sacrifice. We lay hold upon His merits by simply claiming them, day by day.

"If we are conscious of the weakness of self, we shall not be self-confident and reckless of danger, but we shall feel the necessity of seeking the source of our strength, Jesus our righteousness. We shall come in repentance and contrition with a despairing sense of our own finite weakness, and learn that we must daily apply to the merits of the blood of Christ that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." E.G. White, Faith and Works, p.86.

To have Christ and His rihteousness is to have victory over sin and then all the things we need for this life, food, clothing, etc etc, will be added unto us. What a beautiful promise!

I have to agree with you Mark that victory over sin is not among the things added unto us but already gained by having Christ and His rightouesness both imputed and imparted to us.

how's that?

sky

I would agree with that Sky :-)

Amen Mark! :-)

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I would agree with that Sky :-) [/quote']

Amen Mark! :-)

Amen Mark, and sky.

[Robert]

Do we have something wrong with our theology?

Yes, you missed a number of verses including 1 John 1:8

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Now, this doesn't deny growth....We can become more like Christ....We can be less selfish....There can be less self-seeking, but to say we are fully grown and that we are perfectly reflecting Christ is a deception.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Do we have something wrong with our theology?

Yes, you missed a number of verses including 1 John 1:8

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Now, this doesn't deny growth....We can become more like Christ....We can be less selfish....There can be less self-seeking, but to say we are fully grown and that we are perfectly reflecting Christ is a deception.

AMEN

Thank you Rob. I agree.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Do we have something wrong with our theology?

Yes, you missed a number of verses including 1 John 1:8

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Now, this doesn't deny growth....We can become more like Christ....We can be less selfish....There can be less self-seeking, but to say we are fully grown and that we are perfectly reflecting Christ is a deception.

"ALL HAVE SINNED...." Therefore NO ONE can claim to be without sin. What you are claiming or reading into this verse is that believers will continue to keep doing sinful things. 1 Jn 3:6-10 contradicts that notion. A person practicing sin according to John is a child of the devil.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Amen Mark, and sky.

Amen Richard! :-)

[Woody]

Quote:

A person practicing sin according to John is a child of the devil.

Some are only able to see the bad side of things and people. I prefer to see the good. Otherwise ... there are lots of children of the devil walking around ... including you and me.

No. I think we need to look at scripture a little more carefully.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Yes' date=' you missed a number of verses including 1 John 1:8

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Now, this doesn't deny growth....We can become more like Christ....We can be less selfish....There can be less self-seeking, but to say we are fully grown and that we are perfectly reflecting Christ is a deception. [/quote']

"ALL HAVE SINNED...." Therefore NO ONE can claim to be without sin. What you are claiming or reading into this verse is that believers will continue to keep doing sinful things. 1 Jn 3:6-10 contradicts that notion. A person practicing sin according to John is a child of the devil.

Of course there is growth from grace to grace, first the blade, then the ear, and then the full corn of Christ's character in the ear when probation closes but the growth is not in leaving off sin a little at a time. The growth is in reflecting Christ. Through faith in the merits of Jesus we may have complete victory over sin now. If there are any unknown sins the grace of God will reveal them to us and the same grace is given to make us more than conquerors over them. Rom.8:37.

sky

[Woody]

Quote:

If there are any unknown sins the grace of God will reveal them to us and the same grace is given to make us more than conquerors over them.

Hey ... I'm still workin' on the know ones. Let's not get ahead of ourselves and jump to the UNknown ones. That's just a little much. Slow down the ponies.

[Robert]

"ALL HAVE SINNED...." Therefore NO ONE can claim to be without sin.

John didn't use the past tense....He said "If we say" (present tense) "we are without sin"....

You need to finish Paul's statement in Rom 3:23...."All have sinned (past tense) and fall short (present tense) of the glory of God (His goodness...His agape love)"

[Robert]

... first the blade, then the ear, and then the full corn of Christ's character in the ear when probation closes but the growth is not in leaving off sin a little at a time. ....we may have complete victory over sin now.

sky

So, if Jesus had just a little sin early on and then as He grew He produced less sin, then that would have fulfilled the law?

[pnattmbtc]

The secret in overcoming the known sins is overcoming the unknown ones.

[Woody]

The secret in overcoming the known sins is overcoming the unknown ones.

Cool. I like that. For we all know that there is NO excuse for sin. This is made clear by our prophet. If we knew God as is our privilege to know God ... we would not sin.

It should be in our hearts to do what is right even though we might not know what is sin and what is not sin.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Do we have something wrong with our theology?

Yes, you missed a number of verses including 1 John 1:8

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Now, this doesn't deny growth....We can become more like Christ....We can be less selfish....There can be less self-seeking, but to say we are fully grown and that we are perfectly reflecting Christ is a deception.

I agree with Robert here, but I also agree with sky. I don't see any fundamental contradiction.

Sky said,

Quote:

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you." Matt.6:33.

In context, (Matt.6:25-32) the "all these things" are the things that people worry about in this life, food, clothing, a roof over their heads, etc etc.

To seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness is to seek Christ and His righteousness, as it is written "He has translated us into the Kingdom of His dear Son." Col.1:13. "The kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21. "The kingdom of God is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Rom.14:16.

So to be "in Christ" is to be in the kingdom, in the kingdom of grace.

"One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other, Christ and His righteousness." E.G. White, Review and Herald, Dec.23,1890.

How do we lay hold of Christ and His righteousness?

"That living faith is essential for our salvation that we should lay hold upon the merits of the blood of the crucified and risen Saviour, upon Christ, our righteousness." Faith and Works, p.64.

So we lay hold upon Christ, who then clothes us with the robe of His righteousness, by laying hold upon the merits of His shed blood, the merits of His sacrifice. We lay hold upon His merits by simply claiming them, day by day.

"If we are conscious of the weakness of self, we shall not be self-confident and reckless of danger, but we shall feel the necessity of seeking the source of our strength, Jesus our righteousness. We shall come in repentance and contrition with a despairing sense of our own finite weakness, and learn that we must daily apply to the merits of the blood of Christ that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." E.G. White, Faith and Works, p.86.

To have Christ and His rihteousness is to have victory over sin and then all the things we need for this life, food, clothing, etc etc, will be added unto us. What a beautiful promise!

I have to agree with you Mark that victory over sin is not among the things added unto us but already gained by having Christ and His rightouesness both imputed and imparted to us.

It is very important to understand the last sentence, that Christ's righteousness is both imputed and imparted to us.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Yes' date=' you missed a number of verses including 1 John 1:8

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Now, this doesn't deny growth....We can become more like Christ....We can be less selfish....There can be less self-seeking, but to say we are fully grown and that we are perfectly reflecting Christ is a deception. [/quote']

"ALL HAVE SINNED...." Therefore NO ONE can claim to be without sin. What you are claiming or reading into this verse is that believers will continue to keep doing sinful things. 1 Jn 3:6-10 contradicts that notion. A person practicing sin according to John is a child of the devil.

is johns statement present or past tense in the original?

all of us practice sin whether we are aware of it or not, unless you are saying you know exactly what all sin is, in Gods thinking, not ours, and think/do none of those things, ever, at any given moment. but this is dependent on what God looking at us sees in us, not our particular understanding.

if my point needs some clarifying, i mean that i can be unaware of any particular sin in my life at the moment, but does that mean in Gods sight that i am without sin?

[Guest]

Sky said,

Quote:

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you." Matt.6:33.

In context, (Matt.6:25-32) the "all these things" are the things that people worry about in this life, food, clothing, a roof over their heads, etc etc.

To seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness is to seek Christ and His righteousness, as it is written "He has translated us into the Kingdom of His dear Son." Col.1:13. "The kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21. "The kingdom of God is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Rom.14:16.

So to be "in Christ" is to be in the kingdom, in the kingdom of grace.

"One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other, Christ and His righteousness." E.G. White, Review and Herald, Dec.23,1890.

How do we lay hold of Christ and His righteousness?

"That living faith is essential for our salvation that we should lay hold upon the merits of the blood of the crucified and risen Saviour, upon Christ, our righteousness." Faith and Works, p.64.

So we lay hold upon Christ, who then clothes us with the robe of His righteousness, by laying hold upon the merits of His shed blood, the merits of His sacrifice. We lay hold upon His merits by simply claiming them, day by day.

"If we are conscious of the weakness of self, we shall not be self-confident and reckless of danger, but we shall feel the necessity of seeking the source of our strength, Jesus our righteousness. We shall come in repentance and contrition with a despairing sense of our own finite weakness, and learn that we must daily apply to the merits of the blood of Christ that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." E.G. White, Faith and Works, p.86.

To have Christ and His rihteousness is to have victory over sin and then all the things we need for this life, food, clothing, etc etc, will be added unto us. What a beautiful promise!

I have to agree with you Mark that victory over sin is not among the things added unto us but already gained by having Christ and His rightouesness both imputed and imparted to us.

It is very important to understand the last sentence, that Christ's righteousness is both imputed and imparted to us.

AMEN