Victory over sin... One day in the future...

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: John317

I'm talking about people who claim to believe in Christ but they are deliberately and willfully practicing sin. In other words, they are not struggling to do right--

But Paul isn't speaking to this in Romans 7....He is dealing with believer who wants to do right, but because he is depending on his will instead of letting the Spirit have it, he is meeting with defeat....

Let's say I am tempted with a woman....The flesh says, "Doesn't that look good...why don't you take her to bed." And I say to my nature, "no, I will not" and yet take her to bed anyway!

What happens after the flesh is satisfied (fat, dumb and happy)? My conscience will burn in me and I will confess, "Oh wretched man that I am...."

So my attitude...my desires are not to sin, but because I tried to defeat the desires of my nature using my converted mind I did what I didn't want to do.....That's not "deliberately and willfully practicing sin".

Now I might get AIDS...or get the woman pregnant, but that's the result of my failure.....It doesn't mean I am unsaved.

Nevertheless, wouldn't it be better to experience more of the man of Romans 8? Sure....

[Robert]

BTW, what's wrong with having sex with a beautiful woman especially if I am not married?

Answer: It's a selfish act....I am not interested in her welfare, I interested using her for excitement. Sex is fine, but only in marriage...a good marriage where God is the center....But to get to this understanding I went through Romans 7 first....

You see Hollywood teaches that sex with a woman is love....Bull! Sex inside a committed relationship with God as the center is love....Human love is sin....God's agape love is not....

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I'm talking about people who claim to believe in Christ but they are deliberately and willfully practicing sin. In other words, they are not struggling to do right--

But Paul isn't speaking to this in Romans 7....He is dealing with believer who wants to do right, but because he is depending on his will instead of letting the Spirit have it, he is meeting with defeat....

I see the man of Romans 7 as someone whom the Holy Spirit has convicted of sin and is working on his heart and mind, but he hasn't yet seen that Christ is the answer to his sin-problems. He doesn't have Christ dwelling in him. He doesn't evidently get to that point until the last verse of the chapter. But yes, he is certainly struggling against sin in the sense of realizing that it's wrong and that he needs help to do right. So he's not someone who is given completely over to sin and loving it. He is miserable, and the only reason for that is the Holy Spirit. But that is different from having the Spirit dwelling in one's mind and heart and directing the life.

[Robert]

So my attitude...my desires are not to sin, but because I tried to defeat the desires of my nature using my converted mind I did what I didn't want to do.....That's not "deliberately and willfully practicing sin".

This fundamentally is where I part company with many on this forum. A practiced sin to my understanding is one where the mind and the flesh are at peace...are in harmony.* Hence there's no repentance...a change of mind...no confession of sin....

Note *

Eph 2:3 3 Actually all of us were like them [the unbeliever] and lived according to our natural desires, doing whatever suited the wishes of our natures and minds

[Robert]

I see the man of Romans 7 as someone whom the Holy Spirit has convicted of sin and is working on his heart and mind, but he hasn't yet seen that Christ is the answer to his sin-problems.

Au contrare....

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I see the man of Romans 7 as someone whom the Holy Spirit has convicted of sin and is working on his heart and mind, but he hasn't yet seen that Christ is the answer to his sin-problems.

Au contrare....

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Sure, but that comes at the end of the chapter, showing that during his struggles that are described between verses 13-24, he hasn't completely accepted Christ as his Savior from sin.

The question is, is he really "in Christ" while he is walking according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit? Does he have the Spirit? Romans 8 says that "those in the flesh cannot please God" and that "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

How do you understand this?

[Steve Billiter]

Robert you said:

"So you can be a born again believer yet be depending on your converted mind to live the Christian life instead of giving your efforts over to the Spirit."

no, what do you think conversion is? It is the renewing of the mind in Christ Jesus. That also means the Holy spirit is in the mind and caused the conversion. Here you try to separate the two and make them opposites.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be you transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Au contrare....

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! [/quote']

Sure, but that comes at the end of the chapter, showing that during his struggles that are described between verses 13-24, he hasn't completely accepted Christ as his Savior from sin.

That's not true if you look at the context:

Romans 7: 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! [Now, does he still have the problem?] So then, I myself [without the Spirit's aid] in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

In other words in his heart he still wants to do good, but in his walk the nature is overwhelming his mind and making him sin. So it's not over, but yet he has Christ.

[Robert]

Context, Steve, context

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

It's a moot point whether he's converted or not.

Not at all...it's everything....Otherwise one branches off in legalism.

If it is true that "there's no condemnation" (see Romans 8:1) for those struggling with the flesh (as is the man of Romans 7) then there's assurance of salvation and hope for the struggling believer, BUT...if the man of Romans 7 isn't converted, and therefore unsaved, then to get saved he has to be living the Christian life. Hence salvation by works and legalism, which is rampant in the SDA church...especially with Traditional and Historic Adventism.

Excellent Point Rob. Thank you. I appreciate what you are saying. It is helpful to me.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

what sense does it make for Christ to command us to obey Him and stop sinning?

Because to get to that point we have to first deal with the Man of Romans 7 struggle before we can get to the Man of Romans 8 maturity. But to say that believers struggling and failing with sin are uncoverted takes the assurance of salvation from them.....

Yes. Exactly. This is the bottom line.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Robert

So my attitude...my desires are not to sin, but because I tried to defeat the desires of my nature using my converted mind I did what I didn't want to do.....That's not "deliberately and willfully practicing sin".

This fundamentally is where I part company with many on this forum. A practiced sin to my understanding is one where the mind and the flesh are at peace...are in harmony.* Hence there's no repentance...a change of mind...no confession of sin....

Note *

Eph 2:3 3 Actually all of us were like them [the unbeliever] and lived according to our natural desires, doing whatever suited the wishes of our natures and minds

You are not alone Rob. I am with you on this. Excellent.

[Woody]

Quote:

In other words in his heart he still wants to do good, but in his walk the nature is overwhelming his mind and making him sin. So it's not over, but yet he has Christ.

Amen. This should be the final word on the issue. We are IN Christ because of what He did ... not because of what WE DO.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Yes' date=' you missed a number of verses including 1 John 1:8

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Now, this doesn't deny growth....We can become more like Christ....We can be less selfish....There can be less self-seeking, but to say we are fully grown and that we are perfectly reflecting Christ is a deception. [/quote']

AMEN

Thank you Rob. I agree.

I did not see anyone claiming we are without sin?

[Twilight]

Quote:

If there are any unknown sins the grace of God will reveal them to us and the same grace is given to make us more than conquerors over them.

Hey ... I'm still workin' on the know ones. Let's not get ahead of ourselves and jump to the UNknown ones. That's just a little much. Slow down the ponies.

Maybe that is the problem...

Maybe you should allow Jesus to work on them, He can deal with them in a moment...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

[color:blue]

And if what is imputed is not experienced' date=' it was never accepted nor imputed in the first place. [/quote']

In other words what if Christ's imparted righteousness isn't experience? Well, take a look at the disciples....They were a bunch of self-centered, egocentric guys trying to outdo the others...they would fight at the drop of hat, etc...etc. Were they saved? Yes! Why? They accepted Christ....Where was the fruit? It really didn't show up until after the cross....Then you saw a change....So we must be careful to judge....In fact we shouldn't judge...like to say "I know you are lost", etc....

For example I think you are mixed up in a subtle form of legalism....I think it is dangerous...I think it can cause you to be lost, but I can't say you are lost. If I did I must think that I am God.....

So we can't always say if there's no evidence of Christ's imparted righteousness folks are lost.....You can say the longer we feed the flesh the more the probability of rejecting Christ. Why? Because the flesh (human nature) is anti-Christ.....It hates His agape love. Why? It prefers self-love...you know, me, me, me.....So the two are opposed. If you "live for the flesh" purposely eventually the flesh will get you to reject Christ - like Judas.

Rob

Robert,

The disciples did not have victory before pentecost for one very simple reason.

They did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...

Mark

[Woody]

Yes. When He comes in the clouds ... He will deal with them permanantly. Once and for all. Amen. Come Lord Jesus. Come soon.

[pnattmbtc]

He is dealing with believer who wants to do right, but because he is depending on his will instead of letting the Spirit have it, he is meeting with defeat.

[Woody]

Quote:

This seems rather similar to me, especially since John earlier said that whether the person is converted or not is a moot point (I think I'm remembering this correctly).

Personally, I think the person in Romans 7 is someone who knows the law, and is convicted by it, but unable to keep it. So it could be a believer who fell away, or someone who knows the law because of his religion (such as a Jew or SDA).

Yes. This is going down an interesting path. You know ... we all know Jesus in a different light. We all travel a different path. Those who reject Jesus often do so because they have been presented Jesus in the wrong light. This is why we will NOT be judged by our works. We will be judged by our hearts. We will not even be judged by whether we gave our heart to God ... but rather we will be judge by whether we WOULD have given our hearts to God IF He had been presented in the proper manner.

This is why it is SO important for us not to sit in judgment of others. But then that is for another thread.

[Steve Billiter]

Quote:

This seems rather similar to me, especially since John earlier said that whether the person is converted or not is a moot point (I think I'm remembering this correctly).

Personally, I think the person in Romans 7 is someone who knows the law, and is convicted by it, but unable to keep it. So it could be a believer who fell away, or someone who knows the law because of his religion (such as a Jew or SDA).

Yes. This is going down an interesting path. You know ... we all know Jesus in a different light. We all travel a different path. Those who reject Jesus often do so because they have been presented Jesus in the wrong light. This is why we will NOT be judged by our works. We will be judged by our hearts. We will not even be judged by whether we gave our heart to God ... but rather we will be judge by whether we WOULD have given our hearts to God IF He had been presented in the proper manner.

This is why it is SO important for us not to sit in judgment of others. But then that is for another thread.

I disagree,

We will be judged by the ten commandments.True conversion is just that,bringing us back to a state of holiness and perfection. Why? Because that is what heaven is, there is no sin there, nor will be any there forever.

1Jn 2:4 He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Jesus is quoting from the heart of the commandments: He is the one who gave them.

Exo 20:6 And showing mercy to thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

No keeping commandments, no mercy. Why? There was never any true conversion. Those who are converted wil love righteousness:

Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

And then finally, the qualifications for heaven are thus:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The process of sanctification which was provided for at the cross of Jesus through His shed blood will enable us to submit to God as He refines characters fit for heaven.

Restored to the tree of life in the long-lost Eden, the redeemed will "grow up" (Malachi 4:2) to the full stature of the race in its primeval glory. The last lingering traces of the curse of sin will be removed, and Christ's faithful ones will appear in "the beauty of the Lord our God," in mind and soul and body reflecting the perfect image of their Lord. Oh, wonderful redemption! long talked of, long hoped for, contemplated with eager anticipation, but never fully understood. {GC 644.3}

Those who at Pentecost were endued with power from on high, were not thereby freed from further temptation and trial. As they witnessed for truth and righteousness they were repeatedly assailed by the enemy of all truth, who sought to rob them of their Christian experience. They were compelled to strive with all their God-given powers to reach the measure of the stature of men and women in Christ Jesus. Daily they prayed for fresh supplies of grace, that they might reach higher and still higher toward perfection. Under the Holy Spirit's working even the weakest,

50

by exercising faith in God, learned to improve their entrusted powers and to become sanctified, refined, and ennobled. As in humility they submitted to the molding influence of the Holy Spirit, they received of the fullness of the Godhead and were fashioned in the likeness of the divine. {AA 49.3}

It was this singlehearted purpose to win the race for eternal life that Paul longed to see revealed in the lives of the Corinthian believers. He knew that in order to reach Christ's ideal for them, they had before them a life struggle from which there would be no release. He entreated them to strive lawfully, day by day seeking for piety and moral excellence. He pleaded with them to lay aside every weight and to press forward to the goal of perfection in Christ. {AA 315.1}

[Woody]

Quote:

I disagree,

We will be judged by the ten commandments.

I agree with your disagreement.

We will most certainly be judged by the ten commandments.

In the judgment ... my obedience will NOT be judged though. For I will be wearing the Robe of HIS righteousness. And so my keeping or not keeping of the commandments will NOT be seen. Only the keeping of the commandments by Jesus on this earth 2,000 years ago will be seen.

Quote:

"Every soul may say: "By His perfect obedience He has satisfied the claims of the law, and my only hope is found in looking to Him as my substitute and surety, who obeyed the law perfectly for me. By faith in His merits I am free from the condemnation of the law. He clothes me with His righteousness, which answers all the demands of the law. I am complete in Him who brings in everlasting righteousness. He presents me to God in the spotless garment of which no thread was woven by any human agent. All is of Christ, and all the glory, honor, and majesty are to be given to the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world." Ellen White 1893 in NL p. 27

Quote:

"Those who are saved will be saved because Jesus has paid the full debt; and man can do nothing, absolutely nothing, to merit salvation. " {ST, November 10, 1890 par. 1}

Quote:

"To the man who does NOT work but TRUSTS God who JUSTIFIES the wicked, HIS faith is credited as RIGHTEOUSNESS." Rom. 4:5

Quote:

"Like Him. This points to the fulfillment of God's plan for fallen man -- restoration to the divine image...It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed AT THE SECOND COMING." 7 BC 649

Quote:

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection." DA 357

[Steve Billiter]

Quote:

I disagree,

We will be judged by the ten commandments.

I agree with your disagreement.

We will most certainly be judged by the ten commandments.

In the judgment ... my obedience will NOT be judged though. For I will be wearing the Robe of HIS righteousness. And so my keeping or not keeping of the commandments will NOT be seen. Only the keeping of the commandments by Jesus on this earth 2,000 years ago will be seen.

Quote:

"Every soul may say: "By His perfect obedience He has satisfied the claims of the law, and my only hope is found in looking to Him as my substitute and surety, who obeyed the law perfectly for me. By faith in His merits I am free from the condemnation of the law. He clothes me with His righteousness, which answers all the demands of the law. I am complete in Him who brings in everlasting righteousness. He presents me to God in the spotless garment of which no thread was woven by any human agent. All is of Christ, and all the glory, honor, and majesty are to be given to the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world." Ellen White 1893 in NL p. 27

Quote:

"Those who are saved will be saved because Jesus has paid the full debt; and man can do nothing, absolutely nothing, to merit salvation. " {ST, November 10, 1890 par. 1}

Quote:

"To the man who does NOT work but TRUSTS God who JUSTIFIES the wicked, HIS faith is credited as RIGHTEOUSNESS." Rom. 4:5

Quote:

"Like Him. This points to the fulfillment of God's plan for fallen man -- restoration to the divine image...It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed AT THE SECOND COMING." 7 BC 649

Quote:

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection." DA 357

You are presenting only one part of EGW theology, there is much more to it than this.

Sorry, but this sounds like a contradiction to me.

You said:

I agree with your disagreement.

We will most certainly be judged by the ten commandments.

In the judgment ... my obedience will NOT be judged though. For I will be wearing the Robe of HIS righteousness. And so my keeping or not keeping of the commandments will NOT be seen. Only the keeping of the commandments by Jesus on this earth 2,000 years ago will be seen.

If we are judged by the ten commandments, how can our obedience not be judged?

The robe of righteousness covers all confessed and repented of sins, nothing else. So there are two distinction here, not one.

Those who think that they can have unconfessed sins, sins that are not forgiven and that Christ still covers those are sadly mistaken. Even the old sanctuary service teaches that.

In the OT, if the person did not bring the sacrifice to the altar confessing his sins at the day of atonement, that person was put out of the camp. This teaches that all sins must be forsaken for one to enter into the gate of heaven.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and fornicators, and murderers, and idolaters, and whoever loves and makes a lie.

When Men Weave in Human Threads.--When men begin to weave in the human threads to compose the pattern of the web, the Lord is in no hurry. He waits until men shall lay down their own human inventions and will accept the Lord's way and the Lord's will.--Letter 181, 1901. {Ev 215.1}

I also saw that many do not realize what they must be in order to live in the sight of the Lord without a high priest in the sanctuary through the time of trouble. Those who receive the seal of the living God and are protected in the time of trouble must reflect the image of Jesus fully. {EW 71.1}

I saw that many were neglecting the preparation so needful and were looking to the time of "refreshing" and the "latter rain" to fit them to stand in the day of the Lord and to live in His sight. Oh, how many I saw in the time of trouble without a shelter! They had neglected the needful preparation; therefore they could not receive the refreshing that all must have to fit them to live in the sight of a holy God.

Those who refuse to be hewed by the prophets and fail to purify their souls in obeying the whole truth, and who are willing to believe that their condition is far better than it really is, will come up to the time of the falling of the plagues, and then see that they needed to be hewed and squared for the building. But there will be no time then to do it and no Mediator to plead their cause before the Father.

Before this time the awfully solemn declaration has gone forth, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." I saw that none could share the "refreshing" unless they obtain the victory over every besetment, over pride, selfishness, love of the world, and over every wrong word and action. We should, therefore, be drawing nearer and nearer to the Lord and be earnestly seeking that preparation necessary to enable us to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord. Let all remember that God is holy and that none but holy beings can ever dwell in His presence.

(72) {EW 71.2}

[Dr. Rich]

"In the judgment ... my obedience will NOT be judged though. For I will be wearing the Robe of HIS righteousness. And so my keeping or not keeping of the commandments will NOT be seen. Only the keeping of the commandments by Jesus on this earth 2,000 years ago will be seen."

Wow! What a bold faced lie! Priests were to wash all sweat and stuff off of them before they put on their robes--therefore so are those who become righteous--they must NOT have any sin in them at all and the robes do not and will NEVER cover up sin. God is not dumb or blind! Take a gander at Rev. 12:17

[Woody]

In the judgment there will be two types of people.

1.) Those who are judged by their works and according to the ten commandments ... they must suffer the curse of the Law. DEATH.

2.) Those who are judged by the works of Jesus because they are covered by HIS Robe. They are found innocent of the curse of the Law because the Law was fulfilled perfectly by the life of Jesus Christ. Their Substitute.

"The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection." DA 357

[Steve Billiter]

2.) Those who are judged by the works of Jesus because they are covered by HIS Robe. They are found innocent of the curse of the Law because the Law was fulfilled perfectly by the life of Jesus Christ. Their Substitute.

But they must be also keeping the commandments before this.