Victory over sin... One day in the future...

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Robert

In other words what if Christ's imparted righteousness isn't experience? Well, take a look at the disciples....They were a bunch of self-centered, egocentric guys trying to outdo the others...they would fight at the drop of hat, etc...etc. Were they saved? Yes! Why? They accepted Christ....Where was the fruit? It really didn't show up until after the cross....Then you saw a change....So we must be careful to judge....In fact we shouldn't judge...like to say "I know you are lost", etc....

Did they remain self-centered? Never experienced what was imputed to them? Let's see. James became so unselfish he was the first to give up his most treasured earthly possession - his life for Christ. Peter? Gave up the same - crucified upside down! The son of thunder? He talks more about love than anyone else![/color']

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For example I think you are mixed up in a subtle form of legalism....I think it is dangerous...I think it can cause you to be lost, but I can't say you are lost. If I did I must think that I am God.....

Legalism to work out what God works in? "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure", Phil 2:12-13 ESV

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So we can't always say if there's no evidence of Christ's imparted righteousness folks are lost.....

I agree. That's not our call. That determination is God's. However He has given some criteria by which we can form our own opinions.

He said that by their fruits we shall know. That the one who says, "I know Him" but is disobedient is a liar. That those who continue to practice unrighteousness are not His children.

some serious miscommunication!!

the responses rarely relate to what was said. :)

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

1 John 3: 6-7 says plainly that those who have God's seed [nature] in them do not practice sin.

What is practicing sin? It is like practicing a musical instrument or practicing medicine. It refers to the deliberate planning and continual doing of something so that one becomes proficient at it. The Bible says believers are to repent and confess their sins and overcome them, not continually do them.

"Practicing sin" does not refer to sins we are not even conscious of. It has reference to known sins. One can't practice something one has no awareness of.

How do we know this is true? Because 1 John 3: 7 says the righteous "practice righteousness." One cannot practice sin AND righteousness at the same time. One cannot both be practicing sin AND obeying the commandments. 1 John 2: 4.

Notice it does not say believers never sin, but they do not practice sin. That is, they do not go on deliberately sinning. What do they do instead? They repent and confess their sins [i.e., sins they are conscious of and which the Holy Spirit convicts them of], are forgiven and cleansed of them, and then continually walk [practicing His way of life] as Christ walked. 1 John 1: 6; cf. Romans 6 and 8.

Tell me if I understand ... but it would seem that if YOU practice sin .... you are commiting the unpardonable sin.

Where do you get that idea? I never said, neither did I imply it.

On the other hand, a continued practicing of sin can definitely lead to committing the unpardonable sin. The unpardonable sin is coming to the point where our conscience is so warped by deliberate and willful sinning against God that we don't want to be changed and we don't sincerely want forgiveness or cleansing. That occurs when people love their sins more than they love God and righteousness, so God lets them keep their sins. "Ephraim is joined to idols, let him alone." See Hosea 4: 17.

[teresaq]

On the other hand, a continued practicing of sin can definitely lead to committing the unpardonable sin.

do you understand the difference between known and unknown sin?

i only ask, because it seems that if you did, then you would understand the points being made.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

On the other hand, a continued practicing of sin can definitely lead to committing the unpardonable sin.

do you understand the difference between known and unknown sin?

i only ask, because it seems that if you did, then you would understand the points being made.

TU

[Gerr]

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It is neither the imputed or imparted righteousness of Christ that saves us but the merits of His sacrifice.

"There is salvation for you but only through the merits of Jesus Christ." T.M.97.

Righteousness is right doing. It is God's right doing in and through us but this is not what saves us. "Works will never save us. It is the merit of Christ that will avail with God." F.W.48.

God will reward us for the works that His grace enabled us to do but these works is not what saves us. We are accepted only through the merits of Jesus Christ.

sky

Split hairs if you want. Are you saying His righteousness does not save anyone?

"For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe." Rom 3:20-22 ESV

If you have His righteousness, you will have ALL His merits!!!

[John317]

some serious miscommunication!!

the responses rarely relate to what was said.

Members will ordinarily find their posts are understood and that responses relate to what they saying if they write clearly and make their ideas as easy to be understood as possible.

If possible, write correct, standard English. Do not write partial sentences but complete thoughts, and make them clear as crystal. The people you most complain about are highly educated and some make their living from writing and reading. If you find that your messages are often misunderstood, try making some improvement in your writing. Your frequent complaints of the lack of communication only show that you are not writing your thoughts and ideas clearly.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

some serious miscommunication!!

the responses rarely relate to what was said.

Members will ordinarily find their posts are understood and that responses relate to what they saying if they write clearly and make their ideas as easy to be understood as possible.

If possible, write correct, standard English. Do not write partial sentences but complete thoughts, and make them clear as crystal. The people you most complain about are highly educated and some make their living from writing and reading. If you find that your messages are often misunderstood, try making some improvement in your writing. Your frequent complaints of the lack of communication only show that you are not writing your thoughts and ideas clearly.

I would very much disagree with this post. I find that those who claim to be the most educated are the very ones most skilled at missing the point. It has something to do with the lenses they are wearing.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

On the other hand, a continued practicing of sin can definitely lead to committing the unpardonable sin.

do you understand the difference between known and unknown sin?

"Known sins" are, of course, sins you are aware of. Unknown sins are sins that a person commits without knowing it. The Bible refers to the latter as sins of ignorance, or unintentional sins. When we learn of them, we're to repent of them and confess them. See Lev. 5: 14-18.

All sins are not willful and deliberate, just as not all crime is willful. The court views willful and deliberate crime differently than it does unintentional violations.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

some serious miscommunication!!

the responses rarely relate to what was said.

Members will ordinarily find their posts are understood and that responses relate to what they saying if they write clearly and make their ideas as easy to be understood as possible.

If possible, write correct, standard English. Do not write partial sentences but complete thoughts, and make them clear as crystal. The people you most complain about are highly educated and some make their living from writing and reading. If you find that your messages are often misunderstood, try making some improvement in your writing. Your frequent complaints of the lack of communication only show that you are not writing your thoughts and ideas clearly.

a classic example of my point!! your response had nothing to do with what i said, the point i was making, but it did make me laugh!

i should point this out also, that it is a classic case of abusing the victim. and that is sad not funny!

[Woody]

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All sins are not willful and deliberate, just as not all crime is willful. The court views willful and deliberate crime differently than it does unintentional violations.

In the spiritual aspects of this discussion .... both are treated in the same way in that they are forgiven and covered by Christ's Robe when the sinner comes and seeks forgiveness.

[John317]

I would very much disagree with this post. I find that those who claim to be the most educated are the very ones most skilled at missing the point. It has something to do with the lenses they are wearing.

Whatever we think of how someone has responded to our posts, it is best on the Forum to restate or rewrite our message rather than blame people for not understanding us. We should all practice the same courtesies we do when people are talking with us in person.

[Woody]

It would be best to start with if people quoted what a person believes rather than trying to 'state' what they believe.

[John317]

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All sins are not willful and deliberate, just as not all crime is willful. The court views willful and deliberate crime differently than it does unintentional violations.

In the spiritual aspects of this discussion .... both are treated in the same way in that they are forgiven and covered by Christ's Robe when the sinner comes and seeks forgiveness.

The problem with willful and deliberate practice of sin is not due to Christ's unwillingness to forgive. It is that the continued practice of sin changes us.

A continued practicing of sin can lead to the unpardonable sin. The unpardonable sin is that point where our conscience is so warped by deliberate and willful sinning against God that we don't want to be changed and we don't sincerely want forgiveness or cleansing. People can repent of their repentance and this is what happens when they no longer truly repent but plan to sin even while in the act of confessing. That occurs when people love their sins more than they love God and righteousness, so God lets them keep their sins. "Ephraim is joined to idols, let him alone." See Hosea 4: 17. Ellen White says this occurs without the person even realizing that it's happened. People change Masters without knowing it.

[Woody]

The solution to sin is clear. Get to know God. There is clearly no excuse for sin. We have ALL the resources of Heaven at our disposal to know what sin is and to stop it. So, when you are sinning ... it is all willful. For if you really willed NOT to sin ... the resources are all available to you to stop.

The choice is yours'.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

do you understand the difference between known and unknown sin?

[/quote'] "Known sins" are, of course, sins you are aware of. Unknown sins are sins that a person commits without knowing it.

so then, if a person has unknown sins they would be "practicing" them, until they become known to the person and then are hopefully given to Christ and forsaken, right?

[John317]

So, when you are sinning ... it is all willful. For if you really willed NOT to sin ... the resources are all available to you to stop.

The choice is yours'.

Yes, sin is a choice, not nature. But as has been shown many times before, all sin is not willful any more than all crime is willful. Both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy distinguish between willful sin and unintentional sins. Ellen White has written plainly on this subject. "Willful" is the same as sins that are committed "high-handedly" and in rebellion against God. You will see this if you do a search of the words "willful" and "willfully."

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

some serious miscommunication!!

the responses rarely relate to what was said.

Members will ordinarily find their posts are understood and that responses relate to what they saying if they write clearly and make their ideas as easy to be understood as possible.

If possible, write correct, standard English. Do not write partial sentences but complete thoughts, and make them clear as crystal. The people you most complain about are highly educated and some make their living from writing and reading. If you find that your messages are often misunderstood, try making some improvement in your writing. Your frequent complaints of the lack of communication only show that you are not writing your thoughts and ideas clearly.

Yep

[teresaq]

The solution to sin is clear. Get to know God. There is clearly no excuse for sin. We have ALL the resources of Heaven at our disposal to know what sin is and to stop it. So, when you are sinning ... it is all willful. For if you really willed NOT to sin ... the resources are all available to you to stop.

The choice is yours'.

while this is very true, some have been so damaged that it takes a while to go beyond the "theory" of the truth.

hence the sermonizing....

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

Members will ordinarily find their posts are understood and that responses relate to what they saying if they write clearly and make their ideas as easy to be understood as possible. ...

Yep

thank you for sharing that. :)

[John317]

The solution to sin is clear. Get to know God.

I think that's partly true but not entirely so, because Lucifer clearly knew God very well, yet he choose to sin willfully and deliberately against God, and in fact, he got to the point where he committed the unpardonable sin-- all while he knew God and even saw God in person and talked to Him "face to face." That's why God can't save him or his fallen angels, because there's nothing more that they can learn about God that they don't already know or that would cause them to have a change of mind toward him. They are completely settled into their rebellious, selfish thinking so that they can't be moved.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

The solution to sin is clear. Get to know God. There is clearly no excuse for sin. We have ALL the resources of Heaven at our disposal to know what sin is and to stop it. So, when you are sinning ... it is all willful. For if you really willed NOT to sin ... the resources are all available to you to stop.

The choice is yours'.

while this is very true, some have been so damaged that it takes a while to go beyond the "theory" of the truth.

hence the sermonizing....

And aren't we ALL damaged?

And we ALL need the Robe of Christ to cover our willful sins.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

The solution to sin is clear. Get to know God.

I think that's partly true but not entirely so, because Lucifer clearly knew God very well, yet he choose to sin willfully and deliberately against God, and in fact, he got to the point where he committed the unpardonable sin-- all while he knew God and even saw God in person and talked to Him "face to face." That's why God can't save him or his fallen angels, because there's nothing more that they can learn about God that they don't already know or that would cause them to have a change of mind toward him. They are completely settled into their rebellious, selfish thinking so that they can't be moved.

He didn't 'know' God. That's what the entire Great Controversy is all about. It is to show that Satan's view of God is wrong.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

while this is very true, some have been so damaged that it takes a while to go beyond the "theory" of the truth.

hence the sermonizing....

And aren't we ALL damaged? [/quote']

Certainly we are all damaged. The difference is that some realize it and others don't, or don't realize the extent of their damaged condition. Others realize it and that's why they stay close to Christ and don't trust themselves but trust only in Christ to keep them. But they "trust and obey, for there's no other way." And they don't talk of how they will go on sinning but of how they will obey. If they disobey they immediately run to confess and seek God's power to overcome.

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And we ALL need the Robe of Christ to cover our willful sins.

That Robe will cover the sins that we repent of, but His robe of righteousness will not cover even one cherished sin, i.e., sins that are unrepented of and unconfessed but are held on to, loved, and willfully practiced. "The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Read or reread this entire chapter; it's excellent.

[teresaq]

I would very much disagree with this post. I find that those who claim to be the most educated are the very ones most skilled at missing the point. It has something to do with the lenses they are wearing.

it seems to me that the sermonizers have done much study and indeed become "educated" but it is without the HS, it is according to the natural mans understanding and without any true experience to go with it.

hence the lack of application to go along with the "education".

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

And aren't we ALL damaged? [/quote']

Certainly we are all damaged. The difference is that some realize it and others don't, or don't realize the extent of their damaged condition. ...

yes, that is the sad part. and in not knowing they continue to hurt their fellowman...