Victory over sin... One day in the future...

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Judas saved?

Last I checked ... his name is written in the book of Life unless you recently went to Heaven and deleted it.

"one of you is a devil" (John 6:70-71) was spoken of Judas. Jesus said that he kept all of His disciples - except for one - "the son of perdition" John 17:12.

The Adventist doctrinal set is Arminian - thus we do not believe in once saved always saved.

Of course Desire of Ages - makes this point abundantly clear in harmony with the Gospel texts listed above.

I have to suppose however that there is a "peace and safety pastor" out there some place going around with a "Judas was saved" message. So I am not inclined to blame that on Redwood.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Context is everything Bob.

[Woody]

Context is always a joke. For it is always in the eye of the beholder instead of the person who wrote it either hundreds or thousands of years. I guess if the person was alive you could ask them what the context was. But I've noticed that here on the forum when I write ... that people refuse to use what I say in context no matter how loud I plead. So please pray tell ... how do we pretend to proclaim what is 'context' for those that are dead when we refuse to do it for those alive.

Even those who cry context ... refuse to use it.

[BobRyan]

Context is everything Bob.

[Woody]

I have to laugh at those who claim they have 'context'. It is as varied as there are beliefs in Christianity. How many arguments do you see on this forum just on what the context is? I just sit back and laugh. And people always think they are right. THEY know the intent of the dead author. Amazing.

It all goes back to what type of lense you are wearing. There are two types of lenses as I have stated. The Grace lense or the Legalism lense. That's it. You may not know it but you have either one or the other.

[Woody]

Quote:

Don't get me wrong - I fully understand the "need" to ignore context if you want to bend a point when making claims such as "even Judas was saved".

You still don't get the context do you. You continue to go about believing and passing on falsehood just to bend the context. Amazing.

[Woody]

Let's try this:

How does one get on the books of Life in Heaven?

[BobRyan]

Justification "obtained" vs justification "retained".

Quote:

Genuine faith will be manifested in good works; for good works are the fruits of faith. As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and cooperates with God, he works out in the life what God works in by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained. {1SM 397.1}

In Rom 2:11-13 we see Justification "retained" (Ezek 18, Matt 18, 1Cor 9:26-27))

In Rom 5:1-2 we see justification "obtained".

How facinating that those who reject the Bible teaching about "Justification retained" (or as James calls it "judged by the Law of Liberty" which is to determine how we act and live) -- continually circle back to "justification obtained" as if life ends with justification "obtained" and so there is never a choice made or a life lived by the JustifIED person.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Let's try this:

How does one get on the books of Life in Heaven?

Hmmm - justification "obtained"?

That is by faith apart from the works of the Law Rom 3:27

Having been justified by faith we have peace with God Rom 5:1

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I have to laugh at those who claim they have 'context'. It is as varied as there are beliefs in Christianity. How many arguments do you see on this forum just on what the context is? I just sit back and laugh. And people always think they are right. THEY know the intent of the dead author. Amazing.

I get that all the time on Catholic message boards. The next sentence they add usually has something to do with "tradition" and "apostolic succession" and "need an infallible interpreter which is the RCC".

Many many winds of false ideas are available once you decide you can ignore bible Exegesis.

in Christ,

Bob

[karl]

"It was the transgression of the law of God that made this suffering necessary. And yet men harbor the thought, and give expression to the suggestions of Satan through those who trample upon the law of God, that all this suffering was to make that law of none effect. Deceived and blinded by the great transgressor, they tell the people that there is no law, or that, if they keep the commandments of God in this dispensation, they have fallen from grace. What a delusion is this that Satan has fastened upon human minds!"

Lift Him Up (1988), page 153, paragraph 4

[teresaq]

that was put very simply and quite easy to understand. i agree with the thought.

[Steve Billiter]

I have to laugh at those who claim they have 'context'. It is as varied as there are beliefs in Christianity. How many arguments do you see on this forum just on what the context is? I just sit back and laugh. And people always think they are right. THEY know the intent of the dead author. Amazing.

It all goes back to what type of lense you are wearing. There are two types of lenses as I have stated. The Grace lense or the Legalism lense. That's it. You may not know it but you have either one or the other.

Judas was the first whose feet Jesus washed. Judas had already closed the contract to deliver Jesus into the hands of the priests and scribes. Christ knew his secret. Yet He did not expose him. He hungered for his soul. His heart was crying, How can I give thee up? He hoped that His act in washing Judas’ feet would touch the heart of the erring disciple and save him from completing his act of disloyalty. And for a moment the heart of Judas thrilled through and through with the impulse then and there to confess his sin. But he would not humble himself. He hardened his heart against repentance. He made no remonstrance, no protestation against the Saviour thus humiliating Himself. He was offended at Christ’s act. If Jesus could so humble Himself, he thought, He could not be Israel’s king. . . . {CTr 262.6}

Even Judas, had he repented, would have been received and pardoned. The guilt of his soul would have been washed away by the atoning blood of Christ. But, self-confident and self-exalted, cherishing a high estimate of his own wisdom, he justified his course.—Manuscript 106, 1903. {CTr 262.7}

Trying to say Judas will be in heaven is tantamount to this:

I saw that the Lord has given the world opportunity to discover the snare. This one thing is evidence enough for the Christian, if there were no other; namely, that there is no difference made between the precious and the vile. Thomas Paine, whose body has now moldered to dust and who is to be called forth at the end of the one thousand years, at the second resurrection, to receive his reward and suffer the second death, is represented by Satan as being in heaven, and highly exalted there.

Satan used him on earth as long as he could, and now he is carrying on the same work through pretensions of having Thomas Paine so much exalted and honored in heaven; as he taught here, Satan would make it appear that he is teaching in heaven. There are some who have looked with horror at his life and death, and his corrupt teachings while living, but who now submit to be taught by him, one of the vilest and most corrupt of men, one who despised God and His law.

[TO APPRECIATE THE FORCE OF THESE REMARKS THE READER NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND THAT A WORK WAS PUBLISHED THROUGH THE MEDIUMSHIP OF "REV. C. HAMMOND," ENTITLED PILGRIMAGE OF THOMAS PAINE IN THE SPIRIT WORLD, IN WHICH PAINE IS REPRESENTED AS AN EXALTED SPIRIT IN THE SEVENTH SPHERE. AND IN THE "INVESTIGATING CLASS IN NEW YORK,"

IT WAS SAID THAT CHRIST HIMSELF HAD CONVERSED WITH A MEDIUM AND REVEALED THAT HE WAS IN THE SIXTH SPHERE. THE DISPARITY WILL BE UNDERSTOOD WHEN IT IS REMEMBERED THAT THEY REPRESENT THE SPIRITS AS PROGRESSING IN THE SPIRIT WORLD, AND THAT CHRIST, AFTER MORE THAN 1800 YEARS OF PROGRESS, HAS REACHED THE SIXTH SPHERE, WHILE PAINE, IN ABOUT 100 YEARS, HAS REACHED THE SEVENTH! A FURTHER EXPLANATION OF THIS MAY BE FOUND IN THE STATEMENT OF DOCTOR HARE, THAT HIS SPIRIT SISTER SAID HER PROGRESS HAD BEEN RETARDED BY HER BELIEF IN THE ATONEMENT OF CHRIST. THUS DOES SPIRITUALISM EXALT INFIDELS AND INFIDELITY. SEE ALSO APPENDIX.]

90

{EW 89.1}

My point is not that Judas is represented as progressing to the 7th sphere, but that one as evil as Judas that committed suicide because of the horror of what he had done will be in heaven? He did not truly repent, the Desire of Ages plainly says he refused repentance and continued his way.

[BobRyan]

Can't tell who is being quoted or what the context is so - I don't know.

[Woody]

Can't tell who is being quoted or what the context is so - I don't know.

That is because if enough lies and staw men are created ... one can wreck havoc. And context goes out the window.

[Steve Billiter]

Sorry Bob, my reference is the Roberts quote a couple of pages back.

The disciples were saved...even Judas. Their names were written in heaven....

Why do people like yourself try to steal away our assurance we have in Jesus...Why? Is it to make yourself feel better about your performance?

Rob

I should have gone back to His quote and posted under that!

God Bless! Steve

[Woody]

Still ... Rob is not saying nor has anyone stated that Judas will be in Heaven. So, why would you state :

Quote:

"Trying to say Judas will be in heaven is tantamount to this"

If someone has stated this ... please provide the quote to back up your accusations.

And answer this one while you are at it ...

Are you denying that the name of Judas was written in the book of Life?

[WayneV]

That follows from that fact that God won't force us against our will.

Tell that to:

• Adam and Eve, who I am sure would have preferred to have stayed in the Garden
• Jonah, who did not want to go to Ninevah and was PO'd after God made him go anyway
• Lot, who obviously did not want to leave Sodom
• Balaam, etc.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

That follows from that fact that God won't force us against our will.

Tell that to:

• Adam and Eve, who I am sure would have preferred to have stayed in the Garden
• Jonah, who did not want to go to Ninevah and was PO'd after God made him go anyway
• Lot, who obviously did not want to leave Sodom
• Balaam, etc.

i dont understand the point you are trying to make here...

are you saying God will force us to be saved against our will?

but lets look at each case and see if, indeed, they were "forced".

adam and eve didnt want to leave the garden but they complied instead of resisting.

jonah didnt want to go to ninevah and could have continued to refuse. he changed his own mind, instead of continuing to refuse.

lot could have pulled his hand out of the angels hand and stayed in sodom.

the only case you might have would be balaam....

but still does any of this prove that God will save any of us against our will, which was the context of the snippet you quoted.

[Steve Billiter]

Still ... Rob is not saying nor has anyone stated that Judas will be in Heaven. So, why would you state :

Quote:

"Trying to say Judas will be in heaven is tantamount to this"

If someone has stated this ... please provide the quote to back up your accusations.

And answer this one while you are at it ...

Are you denying that the name of Judas was written in the book of Life?

Was written? OK, maybe. Removed? yes, if it was ever there.

[Woody]

Again ... I ask that you provide proof for your accusation that some are "trying to say that Judas will be in heaven".

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: John317

I see the man of Romans 7 as someone whom the Holy Spirit has convicted of sin and is working on his heart and mind, but he hasn't yet seen that Christ is the answer to his sin-problems.

Au contrare....

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!

You need to keep on reading Robert...

You have stopped too soon. :-)

[Twilight]

Robert you said:

"So you can be a born again believer yet be depending on your converted mind to live the Christian life instead of giving your efforts over to the Spirit."

no, what do you think conversion is? It is the renewing of the mind in Christ Jesus. That also means the Holy spirit is in the mind and caused the conversion. Here you try to separate the two and make them opposites.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be you transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

No, conversion is the entrance of the Holy Spirit into the heart Steve.

The renewing of your mind is a consequence of that experience.

Mark :-)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Still ... Rob is not saying nor has anyone stated that Judas will be in Heaven. So, why would you state :

Quote:

"Trying to say Judas will be in heaven is tantamount to this"

If someone has stated this ... please provide the quote to back up your accusations.

And answer this one while you are at it ...

Are you denying that the name of Judas was written in the book of Life?

Was written? OK, maybe. Removed? yes, if it was ever there.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

this is not the only time this occurs and certainly gives every impression that everyones name was written in the book of life, long before there was an "anyone".

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Au contrare....

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! [/quote']

You need to keep on reading Robert...

You have stopped too soon. :-)

perhaps stopping at romans 6:6 is also stopping too soon? :)