Victory over sin... One day in the future...

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I don't see Judas' name....

In John 6: 70 Jesus tells his disciples, "One of you is a devil." Who was he talking about? Can there be any doubt? No, because he very next verse says, "He spoke of Judas Iscariot..." That's plain as can be.

Who is Jesus talking about in Mark 14: 20, 21? Jesus says that "the man who betrays the Son of Man would have been better off not being born."

Does that sound like he's going to be saved or that he will be lost?

Then there's Acts 1: 25 which says that Judas "by transgression fell from his apostleship, that he might go to the place where he belongs."

What place is that? Obviously not heaven. Jesus called him "the son of perdition," which means "a man doomed to destruction." John 17: 12. In modern language, it was the same as saying he was going to hell. (See New Century Version.)

Put that verse together with the verse where Jesus said Judas was a devil and I think the picture is pretty clear. John 6: 70.

Given these undeniable facts, I don't understand why it's even a point of debate. What's not clear about it?

People will have the same character when they come out of the grave as they had when they go into it. Our characters and way of thinking will not change at the resurrection. Consider Judas: he was possessed by the devil when he died, so when he comes up from the grave, he won't be filled with the Holy Spirit but with another spirit. He will also have the same thoughts and the same character, which were obviously evil.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

do you mean judas was saved, but lost his salvation?

bingo

So then, would you say that the whole world [all the people in it] is saved? Certainly Christ shed His blood for the whole world, I believe, but it is obvious that not all the people in it are saved or will be saved. So how much sense does it make to say everyone in the whole world is saved, or was saved?

First of all, is that how Peter and Paul were inspired by the Holy Spirit to proclaim the gospel? Where did they ever say that?

What they said was that wicked, lawless, lost humanity murdered Christ. Then they said, "But if you repent and believe on Christ, you WILL BE saved."

Salvation and justification is conditional. "Whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins" (Acts 10: 43). They never said, "Believe in Him because you have already been forgiven."

Compare John 1: 12; 3: 16. Becoming a child of God and of being saved results from believing in Christ & accepting the gift of salvation in Him.

Acts 13: 39, "And by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses..."

Acts 15: 11-- Peter said, "We believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we SHALL BE SAVED...."

Notice that Peter himself did NOT say, "We believe that we ARE SAVED."

Acts 16: 31-- "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and YOU WILL BE SAVED..."

NOT "you are saved" or "Christ justified you at the cross."

[Robert]

Ok, who do you think he was talking about?

I don't know at this point, you'll have to take me step by step....

[Robert]

I don't see where this says Jesus came to save us from the law.

Romans 7:6 But now, by dying [see verse 4 - in the body of Christ] to what once bound us, we have been released from the law....

If the law is so great to be under why did Christ come to release us from under it?

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision [jurisdiction] of the law.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

bingo[/quote']

So then, would you say that the whole world is saved?

Huh?

I am saying that Judas accepted Christ, but later rejected him....

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved. Understand?

But, as long as your faith remains in Christ YOU are saved! Understand?

You guys are so paranoid...so worried about your salvation....That's the mark of a legalist....Always worried...never having assurance and then the legalist wishes to pull everyone else down so that they have no assurance also....Terrible.

Good Points Rob. This preoccupation with one's legal standing with God ... will only lead to destruction.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I've never really looked into this' date=' but you'll have to prove it to me using the Bible alone.[/quote']

I think he just did.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

No one is arguing that Judas is not lost. We have stated this in so many ways.

[Woody]

Quote:

People will have the same character when they come out of the grave as they had when they go into it. Our characters and way of thinking will not change at the resurrection. Consider Judas: he was possessed by the devil when he died, so when he comes up from the grave, he won't be filled with the Holy Spirit but with another spirit. He will also have the same thoughts and the same character, which were obviously evil.

That's an interesting theory. But praise God ... he will not behold our sinful and faulty characters ... but instead he will see the Robe of Jesus covering our sinful characters and lives. I am judged by the life of Jesus ... NOT my life.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

Huh?

I am saying that Judas accepted Christ, but later rejected him....

I find it interesting that between you and me ... we've said this approximately 15 times. As clear as day. And yet some want to twist and gut out the most clear words possible. Amazing. But the Bible and the SOP clearly warned us that this kind of thing would happen in the end days. And we are seeing it before our very eyes. I just have to consider that we are called to suffer for Jesus and this is what we must do.

[John317]

Quote:

People will have the same character when they come out of the grave as they had when they go into it. Our characters and way of thinking will not change at the resurrection. Consider Judas: he was possessed by the devil when he died, so when he comes up from the grave, he won't be filled with the Holy Spirit but with another spirit. He will also have the same thoughts and the same character, which were obviously evil.

That's an interesting theory. But praise God ... he will not behold our sinful and faulty characters ... but instead he will see the Robe of Jesus covering our sinful characters and lives. I am judged by the life of Jesus ... NOT my life.

Why do you call it a theory, Redwood? You've seen the Ellen White quote on this: "The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny." AH 16.

Notice she says that our lives are determining our destiny. There is clearly a relationship between our lives and our salvation.

Do you believe in the Investigative Judgment? That doctrine teaches that our lives will be closely investigated. God's character is not being examined in the pre-Advent Judgment but rather the lives of all those who have claimed Christ as their Savior. Here's the doctrinal statement that shows this clearly:

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

No one is arguing that Judas is not lost. We have stated this in so many ways.

He is not only lost but he was NEVER saved. There is not a single shred of evidence supporting any notion that Judas was saved. People are not saved simply because they make a claim of being a follower of Jesus. That is what Judas did: he never committed himself totally to Christ nor was he ever converted or born again. Jesus even said that he was "a devil" from the time he joined Jesus' followers.

[WayneV]

i dont understand the point you are trying to make here...

are you saying God will force us to be saved against our will?

but lets look at each case and see if, indeed, they were "forced".

adam and eve didnt want to leave the garden but they complied instead of resisting.

Quote:

Genesis 3:24 (NASB) says, "So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life." Sounds like they were forced to comply instead of resisting.

jonah didnt want to go to ninevah and could have continued to refuse. he changed his own mind, instead of continuing to refuse.

Quote:

Jonah 2:5 (NASB) says, "Water encompassed me to the point of death. The great deep engulfed me, Weeds were wrapped around my head." Get anyone to the point of death and they will change their own mind, instead of continuing to refuse.

lot could have pulled his hand out of the angels hand and stayed in sodom.

Quote:

Genesis 19:16 (NASB) says, "But he hesitated. So the men seized his hand and the hand of his wife and the hands of his two daughters, for the compassion of the LORD was upon him; and they brought him out, and put him outside the city." Note that Lot did hesitate. the men "seized" his hand and "put him out" of the city. It does not sound to me like he could have stayed in Sodom.

the only case you might have would be balaam....

Quote:

Thanks

but still does any of this prove that God will save any of us against our will, which was the context of the snippet you quoted.

My point is that we do not know how passionate God is in his pursuit of a restored relationship with His creation. What I do know is, if I should happen to step out of line, I hope God drags me kicking and screaming into His kingdom!

Agape`

[Robert]

He is not only lost but he was NEVER saved. There is not a single shred of evidence supporting any notion that Judas was saved.

Jesus speaking to His disciples, including Judas: Luke 10:20 NIV However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

So you agree with her? You agree that' date=' "This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” [/quote']

Think about it...because if you insist on this being correct...that we are obligated...that we are under law...that we must obey to live, but die if we do not measure up, then you are worse than a Judaizer....You are a first class Pharisee....Are you sure you want to sanction her statement???

Rob

Robert, it seems to me that you have enough faith to believe Jesus died for you.

But not enough faith to believe He can keep you from sinning?

[Twilight]

Quote:

In all due respect, Redwood, where are you getting your views of these things? Where does either the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy use "conversion" in that way?

Unless one changes their glasses ... they will never be converted.

It is responses like this that creates all the trouble you find yourself in Redwood.

Someone asks you a question about your view, and asks you to supply it from the bible.

Then you do not answer it, in fact you sidestep it.

Then you claim you are being misrepresented and "misunderstood".

But this is your typical type of response.

So you create the very confusion in peoples minds, that you then state you do not want to be there!

If you cannot give a straight answer, then you leave people with no choice but to try to "figure it out".

I for one would like you to give a straight answer to this question.

But based on past experience, I suspect that will be highly unlikely.

Can you give a straight answer to this question please?

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The curse of the law....Christ came to save us from the law.....See Gal 4:4

But the law is basically only an expression of God's character. The law is essentially love.

He came to save us from the penalty of not living up to the law' date=' but not from the law itself. [/quote']

He came to save us from sin...

Past and present.

Mark :-)

[BobRyan]

Our fitness for heaven is a different matter and will be completed when we See His Face at the Second Coming in a moment in the twinkling of an eye.

1. The character remains unchanged at the 2nd coming.

2. The sanctification process is a process whereby we engage in perfecting Character - here on earth.

3. The sinful nature is removed at the second coming and we are given immortal bodies.

4. The IJ is looking at the fruit as seen in the lives of all who have any claim at all to the blood of Christ to SEE IF they in fact died as saints or as merely "pretenders" -- those who may have at one time accepted Christ but were later lost... etc. A perfect illustration of that judgment process of evaluation is seen not only in Matt 7's "by their fruits you shall know them" but also in Romans 2:4-16.

We see it mentioned in 2Cor 5:10 but not with as much detail as you see in Romans 2.

in Christ,

Bob

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Our fitness for heaven is a different matter and will be completed when we See His Face at the Second Coming in a moment in the twinkling of an eye.

1. The character remains unchanged at the 2nd coming.

2. The sanctification process is a process whereby we engage in perfecting Character - here on earth.

3. The sinful nature is removed at the second coming and we are given immortal bodies.

4. The IJ is looking at the fruit as seen in the lives of all who have any claim at all to the blood of Christ to SEE IF they in fact died as saints or as merely "pretenders" -- those who may have at one time accepted Christ but were later lost... etc. A perfect illustration of that judgment process of evaluation is seen not only in Matt 7's "by their fruits you shall know them" but also in Romans 2:4-16.

We see it mentioned in 2Cor 5:10 but not with as much detail as you see in Romans 2.

in Christ,

Bob

Exactly.

[Gerr]

IJ = Fruit Inspection time? Yes! Good fruit vs rotted fruit

IJ = Building Inspection time? Yes! Foundation on the Rock vs sand

IJ = Faith Inspection time? Yes! Live vs death faith

[Woody]

Quote:

"What you do not apparently understand is we are both holy and sinners at the same time." John317 #193136

I think this is an important concept that we need to understand in this discussion. And this is one time that I agree with John317's theories.

[John317]

Quote:

"What you do not apparently understand is we are both holy and sinners at the same time." John317 #193136

I think this is an important concept that we need to understand in this discussion. And this is one time that I agree with John317's theories.

These are not theories but are the plainest teachings of the New Testament. Just one example: 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6.

All humans are "sinners" until the resurrection or the Second Coming. We will have sinful flesh until we are given new bodies. That makes us sinners and continuously in need of the Savior.

But at the same time, God sanctifies us when he justifies us; that is, he sets us apart for His service. It is in that sense that the Bible teaches believers are both holy and sinners at the same time. By "sinners" I don't mean people who are willfully and deliberately practicing sin. See 1 John 3: 1-10.

Jude 4 talks about "certain men" who "have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of God into licentiousness and deny the only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."

That is, "They pervert the free favour of our God into an excuse for immorality."

We need to study and practice Romans 6: 1, 15. "Are we to keep on sinning, because we are living as subjects to God's unmerited favor? Never!"

[Woody]

Quote:

These are not theories but are the plainest teachings of the New Testament.

Yes. As I have observed ... most people think they are right in their own eyes. And it is most evident here on this forum.

[Steve Billiter]

Amen John317, we must deal with sin as God says to, and sin is what will destroy us if we do not meet the conditions for salvation. I think your theology is analogous to the old man of sin and the new man we are in Christ Jesus. The old man will never be completely gone until glorification, but we are to abide in Jesus until that time.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

It is clear that drawing back includes back into sin, faith is defined in the following chapter.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.

True faith is obedience in action;it is not the mere profession of belief. We know the devils also believe and tremble.

It is clear that strict obedience is key to living the gospel in our lives. We need faith and works, grace and law.

If any man sin we have an Advocate in Jesus Christ. (1John 1:9)

[skyblue888]

True faith always works the works of God. It works by love, even the love of God which is shed abroad in our hearst by the grace of the Holy Spirit but not even these works can save us. It is only the merits of Christ that will avail in our behalf.

"Works without faith are dead, and faith without works is dead. Works will never save us; it is the merit of Christ that will avail in our behalf." F.W.48.

The following statement covers all the bases:

"Although we have no merit in ourselves, in the great goodness and love of God we are rewarded as if the merit were our own. When we have done all the good we can possibly do, we are still unprofitable servants. We have done only what was our duty. What we have accomplished has been wrought solely through the grace of Christ, and no reward is due to us from God on the ground of our merit. But through the merit of our Saviour, every promise that God has made will be fulfilled, and every man will be rewarded according to his deeds." {RH, June 27, 1893 par. 15

sky

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Robert, it seems to me that you have enough faith to believe Jesus died for you.

But not enough faith to believe He can keep you from sinning?

Do you sanction EGW's statement or not?