Victory over sin... One day in the future...

[teresaq]

...

3. WE experience the MIRACLE of the "new Birth" and are given a NEW nature. "If anyone is in Christ he is a NEW creation" 2Cor 5. The NEW nature is at WAR with the OLD sinful nature (as you keep pointing out in Romans 7). But 1Cor 10 and Romans 6 make it clear that SIN is NOT to be master over us - we are not stuck "sinning". Rather NO TEMPTATION is allowed to overpower our NEW nature. WE always have the freedom in the Gospel to STAND in Christ more than victor over REAL sin over REAL temptation. (Not merely magic accounting).

now to move past the theory into the experience....

[Gerr]

This is one very confusing thread for me...

Best to just read/study the Bible for yourself, Pam, or compare carefully what everyone says with the Bible and see who is speaking the truth. Life is too short to be spending time studying man's commentary ABOUT the Bible. Just go to the Source directly and ask the Holy Spirit to enlighten your mind. The promise is, "You will seek me and find me when you search for me with all your heart." Also the Holy Spirit has been promised to lead us into truth. Nobody is claiming to be led by the devil. Everybody is claiming to have the right gospel. But if all are led by the Holy Spirit, and everyone has the right gospel, we wouldn't be having diametrically opposed gospels.

Here is one of my favorite quotations:

"Take no man's explanation of Scripture, whatever his position, but go to the Bible and search for the truth yourselves." TM 152

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Thanks Gerry...good advice! :smile:

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

...

3. WE experience the MIRACLE of the "new Birth" and are given a NEW nature. "If anyone is in Christ he is a NEW creation" 2Cor 5. The NEW nature is at WAR with the OLD sinful nature (as you keep pointing out in Romans 7). But 1Cor 10 and Romans 6 make it clear that SIN is NOT to be master over us - we are not stuck "sinning". Rather NO TEMPTATION is allowed to overpower our NEW nature. WE always have the freedom in the Gospel to STAND in Christ more than victor over REAL sin over REAL temptation. (Not merely magic accounting).

now to move past the theory into the experience....

Are you saying no victory, no new nature, in the experience? That it's all theory?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

now to move past the theory into the experience....

Are you saying no victory' date=' no new nature, in the experience? That it's all theory?

[/quote']no.

[John317]

now to move past the theory into the experience....

Quote:

Gerry Cabalo: Are you saying no victory, no new nature, in the experience? That it's all theory?

Quote:

teresaq(sda): no.

Are you saying that the poster needs to stop talking about it and have the experience?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

now to move past the theory into the experience....

Quote:

Gerry Cabalo: Are you saying no victory, no new nature, in the experience? That it's all theory?

Quote:

teresaq(sda): no.

Are you saying that the poster needs to stop talking about it and have the experience?

no.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

...

3. WE experience the MIRACLE of the "new Birth" and are given a NEW nature. "If anyone is in Christ he is a NEW creation" 2Cor 5. The NEW nature is at WAR with the OLD sinful nature (as you keep pointing out in Romans 7). But 1Cor 10 and Romans 6 make it clear that SIN is NOT to be master over us - we are not stuck "sinning". Rather NO TEMPTATION is allowed to overpower our NEW nature. WE always have the freedom in the Gospel to STAND in Christ more than victor over REAL sin over REAL temptation. (Not merely magic accounting).

now to move past the theory into the experience....

If the Word of God is "just theory" to you then I can see why you might want to "move past it".

The Word of God as noted above is Living and Active and sharper than a two-edged sword. Eph 6 describes the work of the Christian in puting on the armor of God which in every part is based on the Word of God.

And then (as Paul said) "having done everything - stand firm"

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

Amen Bob.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Robert

bingo[/quote']

So then, would you say that the whole world [all the people in it] is saved? Certainly Christ shed His blood for the whole world, I believe, but it is obvious that not all the people in it are saved or will be saved. So how much sense does it make to say everyone in the whole world is saved, or was saved?

First of all, is that how Peter and Paul were inspired by the Holy Spirit to proclaim the gospel? Where did they ever say that?

What they said was that wicked, lawless, lost humanity murdered Christ. Then they said, "But if you repent and believe on Christ, you WILL BE saved."

Salvation and justification is conditional. "Whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins" (Acts 10: 43). They never said, "Believe in Him because you have already been forgiven."

Compare John 1: 12; 3: 16. Becoming a child of God and of being saved results from believing in Christ & accepting the gift of salvation in Him.

Acts 13: 39, "And by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses..."

Acts 15: 11-- Peter said, "We believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we SHALL BE SAVED...."

Notice that Peter himself did NOT say, "We believe that we ARE SAVED."

Acts 16: 31-- "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and YOU WILL BE SAVED..."

NOT "you are saved" or "Christ justified you at the cross."

Amen

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

You believe Christ had sinful flesh' date=' don't you? This would make Christ a "sinner" as well, wouldn't it?

We are sinners because we've sinned and developed sinful habits over our lifetimes, and we continue to fall short of God's glorious ideal for us. Christ never sinned even by so much as a thought. Whenever Christ had a choice, He always chose to serve God and do what's right.

Christ was born with the same natures that humans [his brothers'] are born with-- he inherited the same nature as his mother, who was fallen. He came in the same flesh as those whom He came to save. The difference was that Christ was filled with the Holy Spirit from the time of his conception. He never had to be born again. He never had to overcome sinful habits. The Holy Spirit in His life caused Him to hate sin from the very beginning, the same way we must learn to hate sin. But for much of our life we love sin and practice it. Those habits follow us throughout all of our life. This did not happen in the life of Christ.

Christ demonstrated for the whole onlooking universe that humans connected to God and filled with the Holy Spirit do not need to sin. We don't have to sin simply because we have fallen, sinful natures. With the Holy Spirit in the life, we are enabled to resist and overcome every temptation to sin.

But even if you and I did not commit a single sin from now to the Second Coming, we would still be "sinners" in the sense of needing Christ as our Savior from sin.

The Bible makes a distinction between the righteous and the wicked. The righteous are justified and sanctified former rebels who are in complete submission to God's will and His commandments, whereas the wicked or the unrighteous are people who have chosen to go on rebelling and sinning.

Jesus shows that God restores freedom to sinners so they don't need to keep on sinning but can walk as Christ walked in His fallen human nature. Christ didn't live as He did because He had a different nature from ours. He lived as He did because of his reliance upon the FAther and on the Holy Spirit in His life. By that same power of the Spirit, we can do the same. Humans united to Christ can and do obey God's commandments.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: John317

Quote:

Gerry Cabalo: Are you saying no victory' date=' no new nature, in the experience? That it's all theory?

Quote:

teresaq(sda): no.

Are you saying that the poster needs to stop talking about it and have the experience? [/quote']no.

This looks like fun! Let me try.

I had a friend who, when I would explain things, would say, "Isto e' a teoria; mas, e na practica, como que e'?"

which means, more or less, "That's the theory. But in practice, how is it?"

Did you mean something like this?

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Paul: Rom 7:17 But now' date=' it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Paul equates human nature as "sin" in him..... [/quote']

You are ignoring key details and so are getting lost in Romans 7.

Paul never says "human nature is sin" -- no not once in all of scripture.

In Romans 7 - Paul does tell us that we HAVE a sinful nature -- just as Paul shows us in Romans 3 that ALL have a sinful nature that desires evil. (Calvinists call this "total depravity").

But Adam had a human nature and did NOT have a sinful nature.

Christ had a fallen human nature and did NOT have a sinful nature.

HAVING a human nature - does not = SIN.

In fact HAVING a sinful nature does not = sin for which we must repent. However it is a DEFECT - it is a FLAW. Christ could not have a sinful nature because having one would require that somebody come and save HIM from it - he could not be a perfect sinless sacrifice in our behalf if HE had a defective morally corrupt nature (the sinful nature).

Not once in all of scripture are we called to repent of our sinful nature, or to ask forgiveness for HAVING a sinful nature.

In 1Cor 10 we are told that NO temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man and GOD IS faithful (as much as some imagine that He is NOT at all faithful in this regard) who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which you are able.

There is "NO temptation" to "HAVE a human nature" or even to "HAVE a sinful nature". It is not a temptation -- it is who we are.

in Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob, actually I would disagree with you on one point here,

You said:

"Christ had a fallen human nature and did NOT have a sinful nature."

For Christ to have a fallen human nature, He also had a sinful nature, because thats what a fallen human nature is. If Christ did not have a fallen human nature, then he would have had a pre-fall nature like Adam's before he sinned. The difference is that Jesus did not sin. He overcame all temptation just as we can overcome the same way. Part of Christs mission was to prove Satan wrong;that man could not keep the l;aw of God and not sin.

The very fact that Christ did have a fallen human sinful nature and still overcame sin, proved that inspite of the disobedience of Adam and angels, man that was even lower than unfallen man, could obey God.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Heb 4:15 For we have not a high priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses; but was in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

no. [/quote']

This looks like fun! Let me try.

thanks for the laugh!! i so enjoy when humor is displayed instead of the angry posts flying back and forth.

Quote:

I had a friend who, when I would explain things, would say, "Isto e' a teoria; mas, e na practica, como que e'?"

which means, more or less, "That's the theory. But in practice, how is it?"

Did you mean something like this?

i dont think so.

what i meant was that it is so easy for us to throw the theory of the truth around while we are practicing demons and im speaking for myself as much as for anyone else in saying that.

[Robert]

Paul never says "human nature is sin" -- no not once in all of scripture.

This is so simple a caveman could understand it....Let me help:

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells... 20 sin that dwells in me.

What was that? Nothing good in my humanity because "sin" (human nature) dwells in me.

[Robert]

What Christ did not assume is undone and incomplete.

[Robert]

Christ DID have a fallen human nature. Weakened - but not morally corrupt.

That's ridiculous! God combined Christ's deity with our humanity in the womb of Mary. Christ never ceased to be God, but through the incarnation He assumed that which He came to redeem....That would be fallen mankind indwelt with sin (one's bent to self)

[Robert]

He also had a sinful nature

1] Who is Christ?

God! He is Spirit....He is deity.

2] What happened at the incarnation?

God took humanity, from Mary's womb, and mysteriously blended it with Christ's deity. As EGW states, deity did not become humanity, and the human didn't become divine. Each held their place. So the Son of God took upon His sinless nature our fallen human nature.....That's EGW. Whose human nature? "Ours" - not "His"

3] What happened at the moment of conception?

The Spirit of God, deity, rendered "sin in the flesh" powerless. So the Son of man was born Spiritually alive. He never sinned, but He, as the son of man, was made sin. How? He took our human nature and therefor came under the curse of the law. Gal chapter 3 & 4 clearly points this out.

4] What happened at the cross?

As the Son of man, Christ took the curse of the law. Since it was "our" humanity we stand just in Him now and in the judgment.

5] Did Christ take a sinful nature to heaven?

No! Christ took upon Himself our fallen, sinful life in order to redeem it. After perfectly doing this God raised Him Sunday morning with a glorified life - free from indwelling sin and immortal. Since His glorified humanity is ours by faith we are perfect "in Him"

[Gerr]

Quote:

i dont think so.

what i meant was that it is so easy for us to throw the theory of the truth around while we are practicing demons and im speaking for myself as much as for anyone else in saying that.

Practicing demons? Oh my.

I can assure you that from my standpoint no malice has ever been intended in ANY of my posts. If I have come across as a demon in any of my responses to you or anyone else, then I offer you my apologies and ask for your forgiveness.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

He also had a sinful nature

2] What happened at the incarnation?

God took humanity, from Mary's womb, and mysteriously blended it with Christ's deity. As EGW states, deity did not become humanity, and the human didn't become divine. Each held their place. So the Son of God took upon His sinless nature our fallen human nature.....That's EGW. Whose human nature? "Ours" - not "His"

and off we go...

and if any do not already know there are 3 views on Christs human nature. and possibly variations on those 3 views. and of course, generally, each one believes their view to be correct and everyone who does not hold that view to be in extreme danger, at the least!

[Sylvia49]

"My little children, these things I write to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1Jn 1-2

I believe that what John is saying is that we are not to be in habitual sin if we are Christians. But that if we do sin, we have Jesus' righteousness that has been given to us which He presents to the Father, so that if we repent, it is as if we had not sinned.

Eventhough John speaks of perfection, he seems to be saying that our walk with Christ is progressive.

We are to stay close to Him in obedience, but He picks us up when we fall, and starts us on our pathway again.

[Robert]

views on Christ's human nature.

It isn't Christ's human nature...it is ours....He assumed us so that He could legally redeem us....

[Woody]

Quote:

what i meant was that it is so easy for us to throw the theory of the truth around while we are practicing demons and im speaking for myself as much as for anyone else in saying that.

Excellent Point. For we certainly ALL are sinners.

"I know I am a sinner. If I were not, I could not go to the Saviour.” 1 SM 325

[John317]

"My little children, these things I write to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1Jn 1-2

I believe that what John is saying is that we are not to be in habitual sin if we are Christians. But that if we do sin, we have Jesus' righteousness that has been given to us which He presents to the Father, so that if we repent, it is as if we had not sinned.

Eventhough John speaks of perfection, he seems to be saying that our walk with Christ is progressive.

We are to stay close to Him in obedience, but He picks us up when we fall, and starts us on our pathway again.

This is good. Thanks for those thoughts.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

views on Christ's human nature.

It isn't Christ's human nature...it is ours....He assumed us so that He could legally redeem us....

Yes, Christ was/is a human being. He has a human nature as well as a divine nature. He is both God and man, the God-Man.

There's nothing wrong or untruthful, then, for us to talk about the human nature of Christ any more than it's somehow wrong to talk about his divine nature.

Jesus didn't make-believe that He was a man. The Bible says the Word became flesh, or human. Yet He didn't cease to be God when He became human. And when He went back to heaven, Christ didn't cease to be man. When He returns, it will be as the glorified Son of Man, forever human, forever God. cf. Matt. 24: 30; 1 Tim. 2: 5; Titus 2: 13; Acts 1: 11.