Twilight Posted December 23, 2009 Author Posted December 23, 2009 Quote: These are not theories but are the plainest teachings of the New Testament. Yes. As I have observed ... most people think they are right in their own eyes. And it is most evident here on this forum. But I noticed on the other thread that you and Robert, where both claiming to have the truth. Something like: "I" have the truth. So are you then different to those that you are labelling above? Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Twilight Posted December 23, 2009 Author Posted December 23, 2009 Do you sanction EGW's statement or not? The point I am making Robert, is that you have enough faith it seems, to accept justification, but not enough to accept the gift of sanctification? Is your God not powerful enough to keep you from sinning? Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Robert Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert It isn't Christ's human nature...it is ours....He assumed us so that He could legally redeem us.... Jesus didn't make-believe that He was a man. The Bible says the Word became flesh, or human. Yet He didn't cease to be God when He became human. Quote
Robert Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Do you sanction EGW's statement or not? The point I am making Robert, is that you have enough faith it seems, to accept justification, but not enough to accept the gift of sanctification? Is your God not powerful enough to keep you from sinning? You aren't answering the question! Why? Quote
Robert Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 But I noticed on the other thread that you and Robert, where both claiming to have the truth. Something like: "I" have the truth. The gospel is not I + Christ....It is not what He does in me while I am resting in His full & complete salvation accomplished through the gospel. It is what Christ did in our humanity 2000 years ago that defines the gospel. TO add to the gospel is to make Christ's work incomplete. The gospel IS the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus, period! That is truth...100% truth with no error.... Quote
Moderators John317 Posted December 23, 2009 Moderators Posted December 23, 2009 What Christ is doing NOW in the heavenly sanctuary is just as essential for our salvation as his death on the cross. In fact, if all Christ did was die on the cross, no one would have been saved. Our salvation required Christ's resurrection and ascension and His work as our High Priest. His death no more finished the atonement than the killing of the lamb completed the atonement in the earthly sanctuary service. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Twilight Posted December 23, 2009 Author Posted December 23, 2009 Originally Posted By: Twilight But I noticed on the other thread that you and Robert, where both claiming to have the truth. Something like: "I" have the truth. The gospel is not I + Christ....It is not what He does in me while I am resting in His full & complete salvation accomplished through the gospel. It is what Christ did in our humanity 2000 years ago that defines the gospel. TO add to the gospel is to make Christ's work incomplete. The gospel IS the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus, period! That is truth...100% truth with no error.... Whilst you may have the understanding that Jesus is now unemployed and doing nothing for your salvation Robert, the scripture is abundantly clear that this is not the case. Jesus is right now ministering for us, in real time, in the sanctuary and in our hearts. The cross was the means and justification by which this work has the authority to be carried out in us. An analogy: A woman can go shopping once a week. But she still has to cook the food and place it on the table to feed her children. Going shopping does not automatically place the food on the table... God bless. Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Moderators John317 Posted December 23, 2009 Moderators Posted December 23, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert The gospel is not I + Christ....It is not what He does in me while I am resting in His full & complete salvation accomplished through the gospel. It is what Christ did in our humanity 2000 years ago that defines the gospel. TO add to the gospel is to make Christ's work incomplete. The gospel IS the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus, period! That is truth...100% truth with no error.... Whilst you may have the understanding that Jesus is now unemployed and doing nothing for your salvation Robert, the scripture is abundantly clear that this is not the case. Jesus is right now ministering for us, in real time, in the sanctuary and in our hearts. The cross was the means and justification by which this work has the authority to be carried out in us. An analogy: A woman can go shopping once a week. But she still has to cook the food and place it on the table to feed her children. Going shopping does not automatically place the food on the table... I agree with you, Mark. The gospel is not static but dynamic and what Christ is doing today on our behalf is extremely important. I believe the Bible teaches He is in the last phase of His work as our High Priest in preparation for coming and taking His faithful people home with Him. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Gerr Posted December 23, 2009 Moderators Posted December 23, 2009 Quote: The point I am making Robert, is that you have enough faith it seems, to accept justification, but not enough to accept the gift of sanctification? Is your God not powerful enough to keep you from sinning? You, my friend, have identified the missing half of Robert's gospel sandwich. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted December 23, 2009 Moderators Posted December 23, 2009 What Christ is doing NOW in the heavenly sanctuary is just as essential for our salvation as his death on the cross. In fact, if all Christ did was die on the cross, no one would have been saved. Our salvation required Christ's resurrection and ascension and His work as our High Priest. His death no more finished the atonement than the killing of the lamb completed the atonement in the earthly sanctuary service. Amen! The gospel is not just about the past, it is also about the present - then and now! And even the future!!! Quote
Robert Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 What Christ is doing NOW in the heavenly sanctuary is just as essential for our salvation as his death on the cross. I'll make this personal so you might understand truth..... I, Robert, was saved 2000 years ago because my humanity was in Christ Jesus. When He obeyed, my humanity was made obedient. When His assumed humanity died, I died in him. Therefore, as Paul states, "it is by grace you have been saved" - not faith, but grace. If I would have died before I could accept Christ's finished work I would be raised in the 1st resurrection. Why? Grace saved me.... Romans 5:18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. Now, if I lived on and the HS (who lightens every man's mind) brought to my attention the completed work of Christ (either through nature or though the Bible itself) it is then my responsibility to say "yes" or "no" to Christ's finished work. If I do I have a humanity in Christ that is complete now and in the judgment. Remember there's a judgment not to see how good we are (because there's none good, no, not even one) but to answer the accusations of Satan. Quote
Robert Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 I noticed this got glossed over! Hence for you viewing pleasure I will present again: Jesus is God; always has been God; will always be God for this is the real Christ - Deity. You say He became a man - a human. The Bible says, "He was made sin"....This means before the incarnation He was not. He was God only. As EGW states, "He [as God] took upon his sinless nature [His divinity] our sinful nature...." [Medical Ministry, p. 181] She did not say, "His sinful nature" because the humanity He was made was never His by divine right. In fact she says the same thing about our humanity in the following: "By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man [mankind, plural]. This was not done by going out of Himself to another, but by taking humanity into Himself." EGW is clear: Christ did not exit Himself and become a man, but rather Christ as God remained Himself by taking Humanity into Himself. She continues: "To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race [plural] into oneness with divinity, is the work of redemption." (RH April 5, 1906). So EGW is not merely calling Jesus a man. He is God, but while fully remaining Himself God the Father placed "the fallen race" into Him. That's what Jack Sequeira means when he uses the phrase "corporate humanity". Christ was not merely one man among many, but "in Him" all men were gathered up. Hence she states, "Deity did not die. Humanity [plural] died...." [5BC 1113] Quote
Robert Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 The Bible says, "He was made sin" Jones shows that Christ, by taking our humanity indwelt with sin, came under the curse: click here and read! Here's a sample: And this [He]"was made."....He was "made under the law;" He was made "guilty;" He was made condemned by the law; He was "made" as guilty as any man is guilty who is under the law. He was "made" under condemnation as fully as any man is under condemnation because of his violation of the law. He was "made" under the curse as completely as any man in the world has ever been or ever can be under the curse. For it is written: "He that is hanged ["on a tree"] is accursed of God." Deut. 21:23.... But bear in mind forever that all this He "was made." He was none of this of Himself, of native fault, but all of it he "was made." .... He was made under the law to redeem them that are under the law. He was made a curse to redeem them that are under the curse because of being under the law. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 What Christ is doing NOW in the heavenly sanctuary is just as essential for our salvation as his death on the cross. I'll make this personal so you might understand truth..... I, Robert, was saved 2000 years ago because my humanity was in Christ Jesus. When He obeyed, my humanity was made obedient. When His assumed humanity died, I died in him. Therefore, as Paul states, "it is by grace you have been saved" - not faith, but grace. If I would have died before I could accept Christ's finished work I would be raised in the 1st resurrection. Why? Grace saved me.... Romans 5:18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. Now, if I lived on and the HS (who lightens every man's mind) brought to my attention the completed work of Christ (either through nature or though the Bible itself) it is then my responsibility to say "yes" or "no" to Christ's finished work. If I do I have a humanity in Christ that is complete now and in the judgment. Remember there's a judgment not to see how good we are (because there's none good, no, not even one) but to answer the accusations of Satan. Not everyone who dies before having an opportunity to receive Christ will be saved. If this were the case, it would seem to follow that one should go around killing infants to make sure they'd all be saved. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Moderators Gerr Posted December 30, 2009 Moderators Posted December 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 What Christ is doing NOW in the heavenly sanctuary is just as essential for our salvation as his death on the cross. I'll make this personal so you might understand truth..... I, Robert, was saved 2000 years ago because my humanity was in Christ Jesus. When He obeyed, my humanity was made obedient. When His assumed humanity died, I died in him. Therefore, as Paul states, "it is by grace you have been saved" - not faith, but grace. If I would have died before I could accept Christ's finished work I would be raised in the 1st resurrection. Why? Grace saved me.... That means then that EVERYONE who dies never having heard of the gospel is saved? YES or NO? Quote: Romans 5:18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. When is that a reality for the individual? PAUL: "IF you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." Rom 10:9-10 ESV. Quote: Now, if I lived on and the HS (who lightens every man's mind) brought to my attention the completed work of Christ (either through nature or though the Bible itself) it is then my responsibility to say "yes" or "no" to Christ's finished work. If I do I have a humanity in Christ that is complete now and in the judgment. Remember there's a judgment not to see how good we are (because there's none good, no, not even one) but to answer the accusations of Satan. "For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” "How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?" Rom 10:12-14 ESV. If what you are saying is true, then it would be better not to spread the gospel if they are already saved, lest they become accountable and risk losing it! Robert, you have been so free labeling other's point of view as heresy, yet you fail to realize how far you have wandered away from the truth! Quote
karl Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert I'll make this personal so you might understand truth..... I' date=' Robert, was saved 2000 years ago because my humanity was in Christ Jesus. When He obeyed, my humanity was made obedient. When His assumed humanity died, I died in him. Therefore, as Paul states, "it is by grace you have been saved" - not faith, but grace. [/quote'] Here is some present-tense stuff to consider. This is not 2000 years ago stuff. "The waters of the fountain are freely opened for you; and will you drink? Will you come? Will you obey the gracious invitation? Come, for all things are now ready. Whosoever will, let him come and partake of the waters of life freely. It is now that we want childlike simplicity. We want to see everything like pride, and vanity, and folly, put away. We have the Judgement in view. Men and women will want strength that is greater than any human aid to lean upon. They must lean upon the mighty arm of Jehovah. We have in view that day when the works of men are to be tried, and tested; and we want you to get ready. We make appeals to you, in the name of our Master, to get ready. We make appeals to you to rid yourselves of the pride of the world, the pride, and vanity, and folly, of life. Jesus loves you. Jesus pities you. The angelic host he sends to minister unto you. And now, while all Heaven is interested for you, will you be interested for yourselves? Will you begin to seek God earnestly for your own salvation? Will you work it out with fear and trembling? Will you be careful how you step before God? ..." Quote
Guest Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Very good karl. Yes I want to drink from that fountain. The one with the water of life. Quote
Robert Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Do you sanction EGW's statement or not? The point I am making Robert, is that you have enough faith it seems, to accept justification, but not enough to accept the gift of sanctification? Is your God not powerful enough to keep you from sinning? You are not answering my question.... Quote
Robert Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 Not everyone who dies before having an opportunity to receive Christ will be saved. If this were the case, it would seem to follow that one should go around killing infants to make sure they'd all be saved. That's stupid! Kill the kids....If that's the case, why have them in the first place....After all you are bringing them into a lost, sinful world....The way I see things now I wouldn't bring a child into the world.... Quote
Robert Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 That means then that EVERYONE who dies never having heard of the gospel is saved? YES or NO? Quote
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted December 31, 2009 Members Posted December 31, 2009 Man, I'd like to see the squabbling settled.. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Woody Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 Man, I'd like to see the squabbling settled.. Ha Ha. You would have to go to another Forum to experience that. It ain't allowed here. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted December 31, 2009 Members Posted December 31, 2009 I guess not, Redwood. Good to see you today! Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Woody Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 I guess not, Redwood. Good to see you today! Thanks Rudywoofs. Much appreciated. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
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