Victory over sin... One day in the future...

[Woody]

Quote:

We're being saved but obviously no one is yet saved in the biblical sense, and we won't be until the second resurrection or until the Second Coming.

You are saved the moment you desire to follow Christ. Your complete conversion may take a lifetime. But you are saved the moment you see Christ and accept His sacrifice on your behalf. If you should die that very instant ... like the thief on the cross ... you would be saved. This strikes to the heart of the assurance of salvation that we have. Ellen White was prolific about this assurance. It is sad to see that some here do not have the assurance of salvation that He offers to each.

But at least we have discovered the real issue in this thread. I pray that each of you might experience this joy and assurance. That is my prayer.

[teresaq]

So, Judas like many .... was saved but then later rejected this status and as the quotes you quoted stated ... he is now lost. No one here has stated that Judas IS saved. I hope this helps your vision.

oh, ok. im understanding the point being made.

sorry about the silliness of this whole back and forth.

who was it that said, "cant we just get along?" :)

[Gerr]

Pretty hard mixing oil and water, light and darkness, gasoline and fire.

[Guest]

who was it that said, "cant we just get along?"

Rodney King

[Woody]

Quote:

Judas was sinning till he died and is lost. You claim you will keep on sinning till you die but you have the assurance of salvation. For doing the same thing you claim to be doing, why is he lost and you have assurance you are/will be saved?

It all depends upon the lenses Gerry. Judas will not be lost because he sinned. I will not be lost because I continue to sin. We will ALL be lost because we refuse PARDON. The pardon that ONLY Jesus can offer. If we reject Jesus ... we are lost. I have the assurance of salvation because I accept the sacrifice of Jesus ... not because I sin or don't sin.

It is so hard for those who have been 'works' focused to see this. I know ... I used to be there. Don't worry. We are not saved by our knowledge or lack of knowledge. We are saved by the sacrifice of Jesus. And we have all of eternity to learn the great mysteries of God. So, I'm not worried ... I am sure all of you will do just fine. Glasses or no glasses.

[Woody]

Pretty hard mixing oil and water, light and darkness, gasoline and fire.

Yes. But with God all things are possible. And I think we can do it if we are willing and will just try.

[John317]

Quote:

We're being saved but obviously no one is yet saved in the biblical sense, and we won't be until the second resurrection or until the Second Coming.

You are saved the moment you desire to follow Christ. Your complete conversion may take a lifetime.

OK, that's your view of it, but the important question is where does the Bible teach it?

The Bible doesn't say that conversion takes a whole lifetime. And it doesn't teach that people are already saved the moment they desire to follow Christ. Maybe you are thinking of sanctification, which is indeed a work of a lifetime-- at least one aspect of it. We are also sanctified the moment we are justified, in the sense that God sets us apart for his possession and service at the time that we surrender our lives to Him.

There's a big difference between desiring to follow him and actually following Him. Ellen White says that many will be lost while having a desire for what is right and a desire to follow Christ. But their problem is that they never make that commitment. It may be something they think about and want to do. But they must do it. And then from the biblical viewpoint they are "being saved."

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

im just curious to understand what you mean.

do you mean judas was saved, but lost his salvation?

or is now saved and will be in heaven?[/quote']

Robert can correct me if I am mistaken, but on the basis of his previous posts on the topic, he's probably referring to Christ's having died for all humanity. See Romans 5: 18.

thank you for explaining what he might mean.

but im not sure how romans 5:18 would tell me what robert is thinking.

[Guest]

"Oh, yes," some say, "we are saved in doing nothing. In fact, I am saved. I need not keep the law of God. I am saved by the righteousness of Jesus Christ." Christ came to our world to bring all men back to allegiance to God. To take the position that you can break God's law, for Christ has done it all, is a position of death.

{FW 71}

[Woody]

I don't know of anyone taking that position. I've never in all of my life heard anyone state that.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Judas was sinning till he died and is lost. You claim you will keep on sinning till you die but you have the assurance of salvation. For doing the same thing you claim to be doing, why is he lost and you have assurance you are/will be saved?

It all depends upon the lenses Gerry. Judas will not be lost because he sinned. I will not be lost because I continue to sin. We will ALL be lost because we refuse PARDON. The pardon that ONLY Jesus can offer.

"The wages of sin [transgression of the law] is death," NOT merely refusal of pardon.

Quote:

If we reject Jesus ... we are lost. I have the assurance of salvation because I accept the sacrifice of Jesus ... not because I sin or don't sin.

And how is refusal of Christ manifested?

[John317]

"Oh, yes," some say, "we are saved in doing nothing. In fact, I am saved. I need not keep the law of God. I am saved by the righteousness of Jesus Christ." Christ came to our world to bring all men back to allegiance to God. To take the position that you can break God's law, for Christ has done it all, is a position of death.

{FW 71}

Indeed. Yet that is exactly the position of some. It is working its way into the SDA church and you can hear it from our pulpits. Ellen White says that there will be those preaching from SDA pulpits whose torches have been lit by the fires of demons. See Jude 4. I am not saying that these people want to give the impression that we can be saved while trampling God's law, but that is nevertheless the effect of their teaching in the minds of many who hear their messages. They take it to mean that people can be saved IN their sins-- while practicing them.

[John317]

I don't know of anyone taking that position. I've never in all of my life heard anyone state that.

As teresaq says, this makes me smile. :-)

[Woody]

Quote:

The Bible doesn't say that conversion takes a whole lifetime. And it doesn't teach that people are already saved the moment they desire to follow Christ. Maybe you are thinking of sanctification, which is indeed a work of a lifetime-- at least one aspect of it. We are also sanctified the moment we are justified, in the sense that God sets us apart for his possession and service at the time that we surrender our lives to Him.

Those who are truly converted ... will not have any sin in their life. They would not need the process of sanctification. The process would be complete. But none of us are truly converted. This conversion is a growing process just like sanctification. Yes, we have our moments. We may even think we are converted. But we constantly need to be refocused and learn in a more deeper way each moment ... what real conversion means.

[teresaq]

Pretty hard mixing oil and water, light and darkness, gasoline and fire.

but it is a whole lot easier to make a little effort to understand what is being said.

saves a lot of childishness and answers the prayer of Jesus in john 17.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

I don't know of anyone taking that position. I've never in all of my life heard anyone state that.

As teresaq says, this makes me smile. :-)

And a big smile back. I realize that it is an enjoyable think to misrepresent others. Hey ... it gives us something to argue about. Lots of smiles to go around. Great fun. Truth goes out the window. When a person's view has been well articulated both in private and in public yet it is more fun to misrepresent. I understand.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Pretty hard mixing oil and water, light and darkness, gasoline and fire.

but it is a whole lot easier to make a little effort to understand what is being said.

saves a lot of childishness and answers the prayer of Jesus in john 17.

Thank you Teresa for pointing us to that. It is SO needed. It is the biggest thing I found lacking here when I joined. There really is little attempt to understand each other. It is much more fun to fabricate a view and then to attack it. This is usually done when one has little ability to defend one's view. But you are right .... it is very childish.

How do you think we could remedy this? Any ideas? I would honestly love to hear some suggestions or guidelines.Right now it just appears to be one side ganging up on the other.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

We're being saved but obviously no one is yet saved in the biblical sense, and we won't be until the second resurrection or until the Second Coming.

You are saved the moment you desire to follow Christ. Your complete conversion may take a lifetime.

OK, that's your view of it, but the important question is where does the Bible teach it?

The Bible doesn't say that conversion takes a whole lifetime.

[John317]

Quote:

The Bible doesn't say that conversion takes a whole lifetime. And it doesn't teach that people are already saved the moment they desire to follow Christ. Maybe you are thinking of sanctification, which is indeed a work of a lifetime-- at least one aspect of it. We are also sanctified the moment we are justified, in the sense that God sets us apart for his possession and service at the time that we surrender our lives to Him.

Those who are truly converted ... will not have any sin in their life. They would not need the process of sanctification. The process would be complete. But none of us are truly converted.

In all due respect, Redwood, where are you getting your views of these things? Where does either the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy use "conversion" in that way?

Where does it say that the converted have no sin? For sure they won't be willfully and deliberately practicing sin, but that is different from committing a sin or making a mistake. Study 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6.

We really need to base our thinking about these issues on the Bible. So I will agree with you if you can show evidence from Scripture or the writings of Ellen White that these things are true.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Pretty hard mixing oil and water, light and darkness, gasoline and fire.

but it is a whole lot easier to make a little effort to understand what is being said.

saves a lot of childishness and answers the prayer of Jesus in john 17.

No matter how hard I try to understand, oil is still oil, darkness is still darkness, and gasoline and fire still cause combustion.

[Woody]

Legalism is working its way into the SDA church and you can hear it from our pulpits. Ellen White says that there will be those preaching from SDA pulpits whose torches have been lit by the fires of demons. See Jude 4. I am not saying that these people want to give the impression that we can be saved by obeying God's law, but that is nevertheless the effect of their teaching in the minds of many who hear their messages. They take it to mean that people can be saved by getting victories over their sins .

[SivartM]

Maybe...

"Conversion", "salvation" and "victory" have more than one meaning. Maybe they are used different ways at different times by different people. Maybe instead of arguing about what a certain specific word or phrase means (I think the Bible says something about not making someone an offender for a word?), we could try to figure out what it means in each specific situation, rather than just saying, "Oh, that's not what 'saved' means," or "How can you believe such a thing about 'conversion'?"

[teresaq]

"Oh, yes," some say, "we are saved in doing nothing. In fact, I am saved. I need not keep the law of God. I am saved by the righteousness of Jesus Christ." Christ came to our world to bring all men back to allegiance to God. To take the position that you can break God's law, for Christ has done it all, is a position of death.{FW 71}

that does indeed apply if any are saying that at heart.

if not then it is just bearing false witness.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

but it is a whole lot easier to make a little effort to understand what is being said.

saves a lot of childishness and answers the prayer of Jesus in john 17. [/quote']

No matter how hard I try to understand, oil is still oil, darkness is still darkness, and gasoline and fire still cause combustion.

But God can part the seas and calm the waters of hatred. He alone can instill hope in your heart. He alone can give you the peace and assurance of eternal life. What JOY we have in HIM.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

"Oh, yes," some say, "we are saved in doing nothing. In fact, I am saved. I need not keep the law of God. I am saved by the righteousness of Jesus Christ." Christ came to our world to bring all men back to allegiance to God. To take the position that you can break God's law, for Christ has done it all, is a position of death.{FW 71}

that does indeed apply if any are saying that at heart.

if not then it is just bearing false witness.

I dare to say that each person here knows that there is NO one in this Forum who believes what is being stated in this quote. And any representation otherwise is bearing false witness.