Victory over sin... One day in the future...

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

But the law is basically only an expression of God's character. The law is essentially love.

He came to save us from the penalty of not living up to the law' date=' but not from the law itself. [/quote']

He came to save us from sin...

Past and present.

Mark :-)

He came to legally save us from "the curse of the law" see Gal 3:10.

[Gerr]

Legally? Forget about the sinner's condition, just make sure the transaction is all legal?

I thought you and Redwood were not too concerned about "legal standing" with God?

[Robert]

Legally? Forget about the sinner's condition, just make sure the transaction is all legal?

Otherwise God would be lair..

The law must be answered!!! The person who sins, he must die....The Father can't be held responsible for the sins of the son....

For Christ to die instead of you doesn't answer the law. He isn't the sinner and He can't pretend to be a sinner either....Hence YOU had to die....And you did, legally, in the body of Christ which is your humanity! How so? Christ is and always has been, God. At the incarnation He assumed OUR humanity...a humanity that is sinful...a humanity that is mortal...a humanity that is bent to self....

For 30 something years Christ said no to the desires of our fallen humanity. This answered the first part of the law, "obey and live"....But since He took US into Himself, we had to die. Hence "you died to the law (it demanded your death) in the body of Christ".....When One died, all died". This answered the 2nd part of the law, "disobey and die"!

Everyone has been justified BY GRACE in the doing and dying of Christ, yet not all will accept this truth. All legalists will reject this because there's no room for human pride and reward.....

[pnattmbtc]

All humans are "sinners" until the resurrection or the Second Coming. We will have sinful flesh until we are given new bodies. That makes us sinners and continuously in need of the Savior.

You believe Christ had sinful flesh, don't you? This would make Christ a "sinner" as well, wouldn't it?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: John317

All humans are "sinners" until the resurrection or the Second Coming. We will have sinful flesh until we are given new bodies. That makes us sinners and continuously in need of the Savior.

You believe Christ had sinful flesh, don't you? This would make Christ a "sinner" as well, wouldn't it?

It wasn't Christ's flesh....It was ours....That's why we died in the body of Christ....

Christ is God, period! Christ's deity was "mysteriously" combined with our fallen, humanity from the womb of Mary. From Mary Christ could only assume a life that had sinned and a life under the curse of the law. Mary's womb produced nothing more than Adam's life after the fall. According to EGW (and she is right) Christ never became fallen humanity, nor did our humanity become deity. The two were separate....Would you like that quote?

[Woody]

Quote:

I thought you and Redwood were not too concerned about "legal standing" with God?

We don't have to have a preoccupation with our legal standing ... because we have the assurance of Salvation. But in contrast ... you have no assurance so you have to constantly be focused and concerned with the legal aspect of salvation. For it is always in doubt. What a Hell to live in. I would not want to be in your shoes.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

All humans are "sinners" until the resurrection or the Second Coming. We will have sinful flesh until we are given new bodies. That makes us sinners and continuously in need of the Savior.

You believe Christ had sinful flesh, don't you? This would make Christ a "sinner" as well, wouldn't it?

Good Point

[Robert]

Would you like that quote?

-BC- LHU

-TI- Lift Him Up

-CN- 3

-CT- Lift Him Up as the Son of Man

-PR- 02

-PG- 76

Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person—the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has [past tense] purchased the fallen race with His own blood.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

All humans are "sinners" until the resurrection or the Second Coming. We will have sinful flesh until we are given new bodies. That makes us sinners and continuously in need of the Savior.

You believe Christ had sinful flesh, don't you? This would make Christ a "sinner" as well, wouldn't it?

We are sinners because we've sinned and developed sinful habits over our lifetimes, and we continue to fall short of God's glorious ideal for us. Christ never sinned even by so much as a thought. Whenever Christ had a choice, He always chose to serve God and do what's right.

Christ was born with the same natures that humans [his brothers] are born with-- he inherited the same nature as his mother, who was fallen. He came in the same flesh as those whom He came to save. The difference was that Christ was filled with the Holy Spirit from the time of his conception. He never had to be born again. He never had to overcome sinful habits. The Holy Spirit in His life caused Him to hate sin from the very beginning, the same way we must learn to hate sin. But for much of our life we love sin and practice it. Those habits follow us throughout all of our life. This did not happen in the life of Christ.

Christ demonstrated for the whole onlooking universe that humans connected to God and filled with the Holy Spirit do not need to sin. We don't have to sin simply because we have fallen, sinful natures. With the Holy Spirit in the life, we are enabled to resist and overcome every temptation to sin.

But even if you and I did not commit a single sin from now to the Second Coming, we would still be "sinners" in the sense of needing Christ as our Savior from sin.

The Bible makes a distinction between the righteous and the wicked. The righteous are justified and sanctified former rebels who are in complete submission to God's will and His commandments, whereas the wicked or the unrighteous are people who have chosen to go on rebelling and sinning.

Jesus shows that God restores freedom to sinners so they don't need to keep on sinning but can walk as Christ walked in His fallen human nature. Christ didn't live as He did because He had a different nature from ours. He lived as He did because of his reliance upon the FAther and on the Holy Spirit in His life. By that same power of the Spirit, we can do the same. Humans united to Christ can and do obey God's commandments.

[Woody]

Interesting opinions and theories but not backed up with facts or references.

[Robert]

We are sinners because we've sinned and developed sinful habits over our lifetimes, and we continue to fall short of God's glorious ideal for us.

[John317]

... the humanity He assumed was fallen, it was sinful, but it wasn't His. The moment you say "Christ HAD a sinful nature" that moment you make Him a sinner.

"... He had all the strength of the passions of humanity."

Ellen White, ST 11/25/1892. Page 582, col. 1, BV 500

A.T. Jones: ".... in our flesh-- it was my flesh that He had; it was your flesh that He had...." CCB 1893, p. 301, col. 1

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

... the humanity He assumed was fallen, it was sinful, but it wasn't His. The moment you say "Christ HAD a sinful nature" that moment you make Him a sinner.

"... He had all the strength of the passions of humanity."

Ellen White, ST 11/25/1892. Page 582, col. 1, BV 500

This just means Jesus had to deal with the full passions of human nature. She doesn't say it was His nature....

Explain this, John:

For our sake he [God the Father] made him [Jesus as the son of man] to be sin who knew [as the Son of God] no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Was Jesus made sin at the incarnation or was God joking? Was Jesus just pretend sin?

Rob

[John317]

Reverting to EGW, huh? Wow!

And this after you quote her as an authority-- and after Jack Sequiera quotes her page after page?

Quote:

So Jesus was a sinner?

Certainly not. Saying that the Word became a man and that this man had fallen flesh does not in itself make Him a sinner. That is your interpretation but it is not what Ellen White or the Bible say.

The Bible very clearly says that Jesus had flesh. Jesus Himself said, "I have flesh and bones." Luke 24 39. He did not say He took on flesh and bones.

[Robert]

Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

Gla 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law [i.e., "the curse of the law" - see Gal 3:13]

[Robert]

Saying that the Word became a man and that this man had fallen flesh does not in itself make Him a sinner.

Paul: Rom 7:17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Paul equates human nature as "sin" in him.....

[Robert]

For our sake he [God the Father] made him [Jesus as the son of man] to be sin who knew [as the Son of God] no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

You failed to address the above

[Robert]

The Bible very clearly says that Jesus had flesh.

Skin and bones...yes...that's not what I am talking about....Good try....

"flesh" - as denoted by Paul, means humanity indwelt with iniquity..."sin in the flesh"....Sin in human beings....

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

"... He had all the strength of the passions of humanity."

Ellen White, ST 11/25/1892. Page 582, col. 1, BV 500 [/quote']

This just means Jesus had to deal with the full passions of human nature. She doesn't say it was His nature....

Jesus was completely human. The man Jesus of Nazareth could certainly say honestly, "I have a head" or "I have teeth," could he not?

It was his body. The Bible calls it "his body." It refers to the legs of Jesus as "His legs." Would it be wrong to say "Jesus had legs"? Of course not. Well, what kind of legs? The legs of a man with a fallen nature, like all humans. If we can say that Jesus had legs and had a human body, we can certainly say that Jesus had a fallen nature.

Of course, it is to be understood that Jesus was not ONLY a human being. He was also God.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The Bible very clearly says that Jesus had flesh.

Skin and bones...yes...that's not what I am talking about....Good try....

"flesh" - as denoted by Paul, means humanity indwelt with iniquity..."sin in the flesh"....Sin in human beings....

The point I am making is that Jesus used the ordinary expression that all humans use, "I have"; and of course "he had" is the same.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

This is one very confusing thread for me...

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: John317

Saying that the Word became a man and that this man had fallen flesh does not in itself make Him a sinner.

Paul: Rom 7:17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Paul equates human nature as "sin" in him.....

You are ignoring key details and so are getting lost in Romans 7.

Paul never says "human nature is sin" -- no not once in all of scripture.

In Romans 7 - Paul does tell us that we HAVE a sinful nature -- just as Paul shows us in Romans 3 that ALL have a sinful nature that desires evil. (Calvinists call this "total depravity").

But Adam had a human nature and did NOT have a sinful nature.

Christ had a fallen human nature and did NOT have a sinful nature.

HAVING a human nature - does not = SIN.

In fact HAVING a sinful nature does not = sin for which we must repent. However it is a DEFECT - it is a FLAW. Christ could not have a sinful nature because having one would require that somebody come and save HIM from it - he could not be a perfect sinless sacrifice in our behalf if HE had a defective morally corrupt nature (the sinful nature).

Not once in all of scripture are we called to repent of our sinful nature, or to ask forgiveness for HAVING a sinful nature.

In 1Cor 10 we are told that NO temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man and GOD IS faithful (as much as some imagine that He is NOT at all faithful in this regard) who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which you are able.

There is "NO temptation" to "HAVE a human nature" or even to "HAVE a sinful nature". It is not a temptation -- it is who we are.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

This is one very confusing thread for me...

Yes, I can see how you could say that, but the question has to do with the nature of Christ, which is relevant to the issue of "victory over sin." But I realize some of the "debate" might seem confusing.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: John317

We are sinners because we've sinned and developed sinful habits over our lifetimes, and we continue to fall short of God's glorious ideal for us.

Not the whole picture, John. We are sinners because, as Paul states, we have "sin dwelling in me". This was never God's design hence having a sinful nature, in and of itself, makes one a sinner. You are just looking at the performance end, not what drives the performance.

Quote:

The difference was that Christ was filled with the Holy Spirit from the time of his conception.

Yes, He never sinned, but the humanity He assumed was fallen, it was sinful, but it wasn't His. The moment you say "Christ HAD a sinful nature" that moment you make Him a sinner. This is what Traditional Adventism does...

1. Christ did not have a sinFUL nature (a nature full of sinFUL desires). Nor even a morally corrupt nature of any kind.

2. Christ DID have a fallen human nature. Weakened - but not morally corrupt.

3. WE experience the MIRACLE of the "new Birth" and are given a NEW nature. "If anyone is in Christ he is a NEW creation" 2Cor 5. The NEW nature is at WAR with the OLD sinful nature (as you keep pointing out in Romans 7). But 1Cor 10 and Romans 6 make it clear that SIN is NOT to be master over us - we are not stuck "sinning". Rather NO TEMPTATION is allowed to overpower our NEW nature. WE always have the freedom in the Gospel to STAND in Christ more than victor over REAL sin over REAL temptation. (Not merely magic accounting).

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

Quote:

I thought you and Redwood were not too concerned about "legal standing" with God?

We don't have to have a preoccupation with our legal standing ... because we have the assurance of Salvation. But in contrast ... you have no assurance so you have to constantly be focused and concerned with the legal aspect of salvation. For it is always in doubt. What a Hell to live in. I would not want to be in your shoes.

No assurance? That's a good one, Red, for someone who's been bristling about being told he is lost because he's been claiming he will continue to willfully sin till Jesus comes! Do you have access to the books of heaven to see that my name is not written there? Yeah,

there are also a lot of people who think they will be in the kingdom and will receive the "I don't know you" greeting. While you bask

in your assurance I'm content to just say, "Lord, remember me when you come in your kingdom."