Victory over sin... One day in the future...

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I think that's partly true but not entirely so' date=' because Lucifer clearly knew God very well, yet he choose to sin willfully and deliberately against God, and in fact, he got to the point where he committed the unpardonable sin-- all while he knew God and even saw God in person and talked to Him "face to face." That's why God can't save him or his fallen angels, because there's nothing more that they can learn about God that they don't already know or that would cause them to have a change of mind toward him. They are completely settled into their rebellious, selfish thinking so that they can't be moved. [/quote']

He didn't 'know' God. That's what the entire Great Controversy is all about. It is to show that Satan's view of God is wrong.

Of course Lucifer's view of God is wrong NOW. But the point is that Lucifer didn't have that wrong view in the beginning. He convinced himself that his lies about God and Christ were right. He made himself into the Devil by creating and repeating lies that he knew were lies but then repeating them so often that he finally came to believe them himself. He is not called a liar and deceiver for nothing but he earned that title.

Lucifer knew from the beginning that they were lies. Ellen White says that Lucifer knew God very well. Remember that Lucifer was God's spokesperson and that he knew God better than anyone else in the entire universe except for the pre-existent Christ.

The fact that sin began with a perfect being who knew God supremely well is what makes sin a mystery. There was no cause for the beginning of sin. If sin began because Lucifer had faulty or inaccurate knowledge of God, it would mean sin had a cause. But that's just the point: sin has no cause.

[Woody]

Quote:

yes, that is the sad part. and in not knowing they continue to hurt their fellowman...

Yes. How true. And it goes on and on. And few seem to care. However ... this is what our prophet foretold it would be like in the end times.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

The secret in overcoming the known sins is overcoming the unknown ones.

im a tad lost here. i would think it would be the other way around.

I've been thinking a bit about this. I can see the truth in what I said in at least two ways. One way is that if we view God as one who will torture and kill us if we don't do what He says, I can't see how that could not but create within us unknown sins related to motivation (i.e., fear of punishment).

A second way is the sin of crucifying Christ. That is really *the* unknown sin for which we are all guilty. Sure, we know it in a very superficial way, we can pay lip service to it, but not in the profound way that Paul speaks of when he spoke of himself as the "chief of sinners" and as one who is "crucified with Christ." I think Paul had a profound awareness of the truth that it was his sin which crucified Christ, and being aware of that sin freed him from other sins.

And more than simply being our sins that crucified Christ, there is also the ugly truth that we personally, but for the grace of God, would crucify Christ, given the opportunity. We proclaim that we love God, but in our hearts is hatred of God. It's this hatred of God which erupts into sin in our lives. God can heal of us our hatred, provided we recognize it, but as long as we refuse to acknowledge it, it remains as an unknown sin.

[Robert]

Yes, sin is a choice, not nature.

Maybe I've missed out on something, but the Apostle Paul doesn't view sin as a choice. Let's read Romans 7:19

For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Now again, Paul is dealing with the converted man who is depending on his converted mind ("the law of my mind") - his will power - to defeat the desires of the flesh ("the law of sin")....He does want to sin, but his nature lures ... even deceives him into sin. He does not present "sin" (the love of self - self-seeking, iniquity...one's bent to self) as a choice. Clearly when a believer sins it is not his mind that does it, but rather "sin living" in him.....

[Robert]

I think that's partly true but not entirely so, because Lucifer clearly knew God very well, yet he choose to sin

EGW points out (and you'll have to find this) that Lucifer didn't understand his own feeling to begin with....So it wasn't cut & dry early on....

[Robert]

Lucifer didn't have that wrong view in the beginning.

Then what happened? I like Sequeira's view:

# Ezekiel 28:14, 15. Sin originated in heaven in the mind of Lucifer, the head of the angelic beings. The Bible does not explain how sin could begin with a perfect being, because sin is unexplainable. Hence, it is referred to as “the mystery of iniquity.”

# Isaiah 14:12-14. The essence of Lucifer’s sin was self-exaltation, what the Bible defines as iniquity, which in Hebrew means bent to self [isaiah 53:6]. Hence, the love of self is the underlying principle of all sin, in complete opposition to the principle of God’s government which is founded upon selfless love or agape [see 1 John4:7, 8, 16]. Sin therefore may be rightly interpreted as rebellion against God or His agape. According to 1 Corinthians 13:5, there is no love of self in agape.

# Romans 7:7. At the heart of every sin is covetousness or self-seeking. Lust originated with the devil and is not of God [see 1 John 2:15-16].

# John 8:44. In heaven, Lucifer (who became Satan) coveted the position of Christ and therefore desired to murder Him so that he might get Him out of the way (murder in God’s eyes begins in the mind, see Matthew 5:21-22).

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

The solution to sin is clear. Get to know God.

I think that's partly true but not entirely so, because Lucifer clearly knew God very well, yet he choose to sin willfully and deliberately against God, and in fact, he got to the point where he committed the unpardonable sin-- all while he knew God and even saw God in person and talked to Him "face to face." That's why God can't save him or his fallen angels, because there's nothing more that they can learn about God that they don't already know or that would cause them to have a change of mind toward him. They are completely settled into their rebellious, selfish thinking so that they can't be moved.

Perhaps instead of saying "Get to know God" one could say, "Continuing getting to know God" since getting to know God is a dynamic process, not a static one. So while, to some extent, Lucifer knew God, he still had much to learn (which is true of every finite being). Had he chosen to continue getting to know God, that would have covered his case as well. Instead he chose to separate himself from God.

I think the key issue is, indeed, not knowing God. From John 17 we see that knowing God is eternal life.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

im a tad lost here. i would think it would be the other way around.

I've been thinking a bit about this. I can see the truth in what I said in at least two ways. One way is that if we view God as one who will torture and kill us if we don't do what He says' date=' I can't see how that could not but create within us unknown sins related to motivation (i.e., fear of punishment).

A second way is the sin of crucifying Christ. That is really *the* unknown sin for which we are all guilty. Sure, we know it in a very superficial way, we can pay lip service to it, but not in the profound way that Paul speaks of when he spoke of himself as the "chief of sinners" and as one who is "crucified with Christ." I think Paul had a profound awareness of the truth that it was his sin which crucified Christ, and being aware of that sin freed him from other sins.

And more than simply being our sins that crucified Christ, there is also the ugly truth that we personally, but for the grace of God, would crucify Christ, given the opportunity. We proclaim that we love God, but in our hearts is hatred of God. It's this hatred of God which erupts into sin in our lives. God can heal of us our hatred, provided we recognize it, but as long as we refuse to acknowledge it, it remains as an unknown sin. [/quote']hmmmm, ill have to think about this. not that i disagree with the points you are trying to make.

i was going to say more but i think your points are worthy of consideration and not derailment.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I think that's partly true but not entirely so, because Lucifer clearly knew God very well, yet he choose to sin

EGW points out (and you'll have to find this) that Lucifer didn't understand his own feeling to begin with....So it wasn't cut & dry early on....

The problem was that Lucifer was too self-confident and didn't realize the end-result of his lies. Ellen White says, "He did not see whither he was drifting.... Lucifer was convinced that he was in the wrong..." (PP 39). Pride and jealousy of Christ were the the main reasons that Lucifer left "the immediate presence of the Father and went forth to diffuse the spirit of discontent among the angels" (PP 37).

His fall had nothing to do with a lack of knowledge of God. Lucifer had a "master mind, which, next to Christ's, was first among the hosts of God;" "he was clothed with wisdom and glory above them all" (PP 36, 37). He knew God was right, but Lucifer allowed himself to be led by his jealousy and pride to tell lies about Christ and about the government and laws of God.

While Lucifer was lying and deceitful and "indifferent to the interests of heavenly beings," this "very work which he himself was doing, he charged upon the loyal angels. It was his policy to perplex with subtle arguments concerning the purposes of God. Everything that was simple he shrouded in mystery, and by artful perversion cast doubt upon the plainest statements of Jehovah." PP 41.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

...Lucifer clearly knew God very well, yet he choose to sin willfully and deliberately against God, and in fact, he got to the point where he committed the unpardonable sin-- all while he knew God and even saw God in person and talked to Him "face to face." That's why God can't save him or his fallen angels, because there's nothing more that they can learn about God that they don't already know or that would cause them to have a change of mind toward him. They are completely settled into their rebellious, selfish thinking so that they can't be moved.

Perhaps instead of saying "Get to know God" one could say, "Continuing getting to know God" since getting to know God is a dynamic process, not a static one.

Yes, I agree that it's a dynamic process.

Quote:

I think the key issue is, indeed, not knowing God. From John 17 we see that knowing God is eternal life.

The key issue is submission to God and having a willingness and desire to obey Him. This is something that Lucifer didn't have. He allowed his jealousy and envy and pride to lead him to rebel against God despite all his knowledge of God. He loved himself more than he loved Christ and His righteousness. Knowledge of God in and of itself will not lead to putting away sin unless we're motived by the desire to obey and to submit our wills to God's.

[pnattmbtc]

It's knowledge of God that causes one to be willing. The goodness of God leads us to repentance. Of course, since God won't force us against our will, we must be willing to know Him.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, sin is a choice, not nature.

Maybe I've missed out on something, but the Apostle Paul doesn't view sin as a choice.

The Bible clearly gives emphasis to sin as a choice, as the following examples show--

1) Romans 6: 1, 15-- "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!.... What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!"

2) John 8: 11--Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go and and no longer keep on sinning."

3) 1 Cor. 15: 34-- "Awake to righteousness, and do not sin [lit. "stop sinning"]."

4) 1 Thess.5: 22-- "Abstain from every form of wickedness."

5) 2 Peter 2: 10-14 says that "those who walk according to the flesh" "cannot cease from sin." Notice it is not the believer who cannot stop sinning but the unbeliever. Compare Romans 6 and 8.

6) 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6 says that those who know Christ and love God "keep His commandments."

7) 1 John 3: 4-10 says that "everyone who commits sin commits lawlessness; sin is lawlessness [violation of the law]. You know that He appeared to take our sins away, and that there is no sin in Him. No one who continues to live in union with Him practices sin. No one who practices sin has ever seen Him or come to know Him... Whoever practices sin belongs to the devil, because the devil has practiced sin from the beginning.... No one who is born of God makes a practice of sinning..."

None of the above verses would make any sense if sin were not a choice. You don't tell someone to stop doing something that is not a choice. God does not tell us to stop having a sinful nature. Having a sinful nature does not force believers to commit sin. The believer is given the Holy Spirit in order that he might resist every temptation to sin. Romans 6 and 8. The man of Romans 7 doesn't have the Spirit in his life and therefore this chapter doesn't describe God's plan for the Christian. Through the Holy Spirit the believer has his freedom restored to him to be what God intended him to be. He becomes a slave of righteousness and of God. He's empowered to obey God's will for his life, no longer a slave of sin and self.

[John317]

It's knowledge of God that causes one to be willing. The goodness of God leads us to repentance. Of course, since God won't force us against our will, we must be willing to know Him.

Sure. The only reason any of us wants to do right is because of the gift of the Spirit. But we must make the decision to submit our will to Christ's and obey the Spirit's urging. This is what Lucifer and millions of people don't do. They may have the knowledge but unless they make the decision to submit their will to Christ's and choose to obey Him, all the knowledge in the world won't bring about the cessation of sin. That comes with conversion and daily dying to self and sin.

[pnattmbtc]

That follows from that fact that God won't force us against our will.

[John317]

Amen!

[Robert]

The man of Romans 7 doesn't have the Spirit in his life and therefore this chapter doesn't describe God's plan for the Christian.

Oh, I see....So you easily dismiss Paul's statement just like that? Hmmm?

The man of Romans 7 has God's law written on his heart (mind). See Romans 7:22. He is converted because Paul always uses the phrase "inward man" to refer only to the believer.

For example, let me give you a couple of incidents. Turn to 2 Corinthians 4:16 and you will find that Paul is talking here about the believer when he uses that phrase “inward man” or the “inner man” or the “inner mind”:

Therefore we [believers] do not lose heart. Though outwardly [i.e., the flesh, the body] we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.

You see, he’s talking about the converted mind. If you turn to Ephesians 3:16, you have the same idea there. Paul will never use that phrase for the unbeliever, he will use it only for the believer. Ephesians 3:16:

I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you [i.e., the Christians of Ephesus] with power through his Spirit in your inner being....

If you look at Ephesians 2:3, Paul will tell us there that the mind and the flesh of the unbeliever are in harmony with sin:

...gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts....

That is the pre-converted man. But when it comes to the believer, his mind has been turned towards God. He has a renewed mind. And that is what the Greek word “repentance” means: a change of mind. But his flesh is unchangeable. That is what Jesus tried to convince Nicodemus in John 3:6 where He said:

Flesh gives birth to flesh....

You cannot change the flesh. The only time the flesh will change is at the second coming of Christ. So Paul here is obviously referring to the believer.

Wherever Paul talks about his preconverted experience as a Pharisee, he mentions nothing about a struggle. For example, Philippians 3:6 he says:

...As for legalistic righteousness, [i was] faultless.

There’s no mention of a struggle. Only as a Christian does he talk about the struggle.

So your "inner man" - your converted mind, where the principle of God's law is written, hates sin and wants to live a life of agape, but...

But what? Without surrendering the converted mind, which "delights in the law of God after the inward man", to Spirit the believer's desire to live above the sin nature will be met with defeat.

Why? Does the man of Romans 7 desire to sin? No! His converted heart/mind has said goodbye to sin. Then why is he sinning?

Answer: Verse 17 As it is, it is no longer I [my converted mind] who do it [sins], but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I [my converted mind] who do it [sins], but it is sin living in me that does it.

[Robert]

Now I'll prove this using EGW:

"You desire to give yourself to Him, but you are weak in moral power,in slavery to doubt, and controlled by the habits of your life of sin. Your promises and resolutions are like ropes of sand. You cannot control your thoughts, your impulses, your affections. ...."

Sounds like the man of Romans 7, huh? EWG goes on to describe how such a believer can mature:

You can give Him your will [what the converted mind desires - i.e., to live a life of agape]; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ...." [sC 47]

So you can be a born again believer yet be depending on your converted mind to live the Christian life instead of giving your efforts over to the Spirit.

So, sin is not a choice. You can't just say with your mind, "I'm not going to sin". The choice is to give your desires...your will...over to God's Spirit. But to do this means that you have to face the fact that you can't "just say no" - you have to allow God's Spirit to defeat the flesh. That's is your choice....

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The man of Romans 7 doesn't have the Spirit in his life and therefore this chapter doesn't describe God's plan for the Christian.

Oh, I see....So you easily dismiss Paul's statement just like that? Hmmm?

The man of Romans 7 has God's law written on his heart (mind). See Romans 7:22. He is converted because Paul always uses the phrase "inward man" to refer only to the believer.

If he's got the law written on his heart and mind, why is he unable to obey it? To have the law written on the heart means that the person is able to obey the law. But this man cannot do anything right but only sins continually. That's not the mark of someone with the law of God on their heart.

It's a moot point, though, whether he's converted or not. The more important fact is he is not filled with and led by the Holy Spirit. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God" (Romans 8: 14).

Notice that there's no mention of the Holy Spirit from Romans 7: 7 to the end of the chapter. The reason is that the man of Romans 7 doesn't have the Spirit. He is in the flesh. He is carnal, a slave of sin (Romans 7: 17; 6: 16; 8: 6,7).

Romans 8: 9 says, "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

This man cannot do anything but practice sin (Rom. 7: 15, 19). He's not at all like the man of Romans 6 and 8, who has died to sin and is a slave of righteousness (Romans 6: 18).

1 John 3: 9, "Whoever has been born of God does not practice sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot practice sin, because he has been born of God."

I just don't see how we can say that Romans 7: 17 & 19 is describing the experience of the man who has been born of God, as he's portrayed in 1 John 3: 9; Romans 6 & 8. But whether he's converted or not, the fact remains that he's in the flesh and not in the Spirit.

[Robert]

It's a moot point whether he's converted or not.

Not at all...it's everything....Otherwise one branches off in legalism.

If it is true that "there's no condemnation" (see Romans 8:1) for those struggling with the flesh (as is the man of Romans 7) then there's assurance of salvation and hope for the struggling believer, BUT...if the man of Romans 7 isn't converted, and therefore unsaved, then to get saved he has to be living the Christian life. Hence salvation by works and legalism, which is rampant in the SDA church...especially with Traditional and Historic Adventism.

[John317]

So you can be a born again believer yet be depending on your converted mind to live the Christian life instead of giving your efforts over to the Spirit.

You can't just say with your mind, "I'm not going to sin". The choice is to give your desires...your will...over to God's Spirit. But to do this means that you have to face the fact that you can't "just say no" - you have to allow God's Spirit to defeat the flesh. That's is your choice....

I agree with all the above-- minus your statement that "sin is not a choice."

I think we're using that phrase in two different ways. We agree, though, that the natural man-- the person apart from the Holy Spirit's power in the life-- cannot simply choose not to sin.

2 Peter 2: 14 says that unbelievers and those who don't have the Spirit cannot cease from sin. I think we both agree on that.

The real question is, then, can the Christian who is indwelt and led by the Spirit obey God's will? I believe he can. If he can't, what sense does it make for Christ to command us to obey Him and stop sinning?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

So you can be a born again believer yet be depending on your converted mind to live the Christian life instead of giving your efforts over to the Spirit.

You can't just say with your mind, "I'm not going to sin". The choice is to give your desires...your will...over to God's Spirit. But to do this means that you have to face the fact that you can't "just say no" - you have to allow God's Spirit to defeat the flesh. That's is your choice....

I agree with all the above-- minus your statement that "sin is not a choice."

Paul said that under inspiration!

verse 17: As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

verse 20: Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So again, you can't just say "I am not going to sin today!" Instead you can say, "I'll give my will...my desire not to sin over to God's Spirit and then He can defeat my sin nature so that I can move forward.".

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

It's a moot point whether he's converted or not.

Not at all...it's everything....Otherwise one branches off in legalism.

If it is true that "there's no condemnation" (see Romans 8:1) for those struggling with the flesh (as is the man of Romans 7) then there's assurance of salvation and hope for the struggling believer...

Yes, this part I can agree with. I'm not saying there's no salvation for the struggling believer. I'm talking about people who claim to believe in Christ but they are deliberately and willfully practicing sin. In other words, they are not struggling to do right-- they've given in to their love of sin and have no serious intention of obeying Christ or of doing His will. They excuse themselves and believe that God will simply have to accept them with all their sins. They are fooling themselves. They love their sins more than they love Christ. Remember that Ellen White says, "The robe of Christ's righteousness will not cover one cherished sin."

[Robert]

what sense does it make for Christ to command us to obey Him and stop sinning?

Because to get to that point we have to first deal with the Man of Romans 7 struggle before we can get to the Man of Romans 8 maturity. But to say that believers struggling and failing with sin are uncoverted takes the assurance of salvation from them.....

[Robert]

I'm talking about people who claim to believe in Christ but they are deliberately and willfully practicing sin. In other words, they are not struggling to do right--

But Paul isn't speaking to this in Romans 7....He is dealing with believer who wants to do right, but because he is depending on his will instead of letting the Spirit have it, he is meeting with defeat....

[John317]

Paul said that under inspiration!

verse 17: As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

verse 20: Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So again, you can't just say "I am not going to sin today!" Instead you can say, "I'll give my will...my desire not to sin over to God's Spirit and then He can defeat my sin nature so that I can move forward.".

I agree with all the above, but I don't see that this denies that sin is a choice. Of course we can only choose Christ over sin by the Holy Spirit.

Some people believe that they sin because they can't help it since the Holy Spirit hasn't made them stop. What they don't realize is that they have to choose to obey Christ rather than their own desires to sin. I see it as a question of loving sin or of not hating sin. They want to keep their sin. I know about this very well because for many years, that was my experience. I didn't really want to stop doing my sins. So I was really cherishing them. Sure, I loved Christ, but I didn't want to give up my sins. I thought I could keep them and have Jesus too. But eventually I found out that I could not just keep some sins and at the same time expect to have Christ dwelling in me. It is all Christ or nothing. Christ won't share our hearts and lives with cherished sins.