What is salvation?

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

What is Holiness? It is the absence of sin.

I believe the call goes higher than the absence of transgression of the law, as Paul pointed out. Whatever is not of faith, is sin. The absence of transgression of the law is entry level transformation, and a lot of salvation discussions center around that, but Christ clearly calls us higher.

There are the weightier matters of the law, and then there are the fruits of the Spirit, against which there is no law.

This ought thou to have done, and not left the other undone.

I think Paul was calling us all to press on toward the mark of the much higher calling of God than just avoiding transgressing the law.

Thats right Karl, we don't get Holy by being legalists. Nor do we get there by not meeting fully God's conditions.

It is "doers" of righteousness not merely "not doers" of sin that attain to heights never before seen by sinful man culminating in glorification at his coming!

Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

[Robert]

The curse of the law comes upon the disobedient.

And last time I checked you were still a sinner? So Christ came to save you from the curse of the law for, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

[Guest]

Just because pnatt is a sinner technically, does not mean that he is still disobedient. You have a dim and very limited view of God don't you Robert?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

If we do not over come every sin in this life, there will be no heaven.

Legalism! This is salvation by works.

Do I understand this to mean then that we don't have to gain vitory over sin? That we can hang on to sin and still be saved?

[SivartM]

Let him who has not sinned cast the first stone.

Just so you know, that would be Jesus, and He doesn't throw rocks at people.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Legalism! This is salvation by works. [/quote']

Do I understand this to mean then that we don't have to gain vitory over sin? That we can hang on to sin and still be saved?

When are you going to gain the victory over all sin and live Christ's life?

[teresaq]

..."Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

you know my brother, just because you "get it" doesnt mean others do, or will, even if you explain it to them.

spiritual things are spiritually discerned, and we all "get" different things at different times.

i dont know if you have heard of the 7 stages of spiritual maturity, but that might help in knowing how to respond to the various stages responding....

i think ill start posting it for those interested. course be forewarned in reading it, we may not be as high up as we would like to think of ourselves. i know i wasnt as high as i wish, not sure im much higher now, but it certainly helped me watch for certain behaviors in myself and strive for others. :-)

[Musicman1228]

It is apparent that there is a lot of confusion about what salvation is, who it is for, and how it is accomplished. Here are the answers;

Salvation is having the penalty for disobedience to God paid for you by Jesus Christ the Passover Lamb.

Salvation is only for those that are in the Kingdom of Heaven, those who are IN the world but not OF the world.

Salvation is accomplished by being obedient to the Words of God as given through Jesus Christ, through the process of sanctification.

This may sound simple, but it is not. Salvation IS NOT accomplished by saying the sinner's prayer, and just believing that you are saved through grace by faith.

[John317]

Just because pnatt is a sinner technically, does not mean that he is still disobedient.

Very important distinction, and one which the Bible makes clear. For instance, all people who go to heaven will be sinners but none of them will be disobedient sinners. It's the righteous who go to heaven and the wicked who are lost. Job was a sinner, as were Noah and John the Baptist's parents, but the Bible says these sinners were no longer disobedient but were "righteous," "perfect," and obedient to all the commandments of God. Gen. 6: 9, 22; Job 1: 1; Luke 1: 6.

Ellen G. White says, "No commandment-breaker can be permitted to enter heaven." FW 29 Those who enter heaven will be repentant for their sins and be former commandment-breakers.

Also see FW 95, 96. "He does not save us by law, neither will He save us in disobedience to law."

[wayfinder]

What makes a "sinner" a sinner?

Matthew 6:33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Has Jesus sent us on a wild goose chase, I think not. We are to seek righteousness, the righteousness of (His) God's righteousness. God is not a sinner who is righteous and we are not to be sinners who are righteous and we are to seek the kingdom of God. We find this kingdom when we are righteous. The process of sanctification is the way to the kingdom.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Just because pnatt is a sinner technically, does not mean that he is still disobedient.

Very important distinction, and one which the Bible makes clear. For instance, all people who go to heaven will be sinners but none of them will be disobedient sinners. It's the righteous who go to heaven and the wicked who are lost. Job was a sinner, as were Noah and John the Baptist's parents, but the Bible says these sinners were no longer disobedient but were "righteous," "perfect," and obedient to all the commandments of God. Gen. 6: 9, 22; Job 1: 1; Luke 1: 6.

Ellen G. White says, "No commandment-breaker can be permitted to enter heaven." FW 29 Those who enter heaven will be repentant for their sins and be former commandment-breakers.

Also see FW 95, 96. "He does not save us by law, neither will He save us in disobedience to law."

That's beautiful John just beautifully said.

pk

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: John317

Very important distinction, and one which the Bible makes clear. For instance, all people who go to heaven will be sinners but none of them will be disobedient sinners. It's the righteous who go to heaven and the wicked who are lost. Job was a sinner, as were Noah and John the Baptist's parents, but the Bible says these sinners were no longer disobedient but were "righteous," "perfect," and obedient to all the commandments of God. Gen. 6: 9, 22; Job 1: 1; Luke 1: 6.

Ellen G. White says, "No commandment-breaker can be permitted to enter heaven." FW 29 Those who enter heaven will be repentant for their sins and be former commandment-breakers.

Also see FW 95, 96. "He does not save us by law, neither will He save us in disobedience to law." [/quote']

That's beautiful John just beautifully said.

pk

I agree.

[Robert]

Just because pnatt is a sinner technically, does not mean that he is still disobedient. You have a dim and very limited view of God don't you Robert?

If he is not living Christ's life of obedience to the spirit of the law, he is not obedient. Growth, yes, obedience no....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Legalism! This is salvation by works. [/quote']

Not so, its in the Bible, take it to God, He wrote it not me!

You just need to learn to read it and differentiate between the Old and New covenant....

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

The curse of the law comes upon the disobedient.

And last time I checked you were still a sinner? So Christ came to save you from the curse of the law for, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

Please consider the quote from Waggoner I included with my comment.

[John317]

It is apparent that there is a lot of confusion about what salvation is, who it is for, and how it is accomplished.

Agree.

Quote:

Here are the answers;

Salvation is having the penalty for disobedience to God paid for you by Jesus Christ the Passover Lamb.

Yes, and Christ shed His blood for all humanity. But in order for that blood to benefit us in terms of having our sins covered and finally blotted out, each individual must receive Christ by faith, which includes repentance for sin and asking Him to become both Savior and Master. It means putting one's trust in the merits of Christ and taking God at His word, believing that His promises are as good as fulfilled.

Quote:

Salvation is only for those that are in the Kingdom of Heaven, those who are IN the world but not OF the world.

People are justified, or set right with God through His mercy because of Christ's shed blood, and by that declaration, they are sanctified and become members of Christ's body the church. If we are faithful and loyal to Christ, we will then become citizens of the kingdom of God. The church is the community of the kingdom of God, but never the kingdom itself. The kingdom is the rule of God; the church is a society of men.

Quote:

Salvation is accomplished by being obedient to the Words of God as given through Jesus Christ, through the process of sanctification.

Salvation is by God's grace (that is, His unmerited favor, a gift) and received by faith in Jesus Christ. If people are truly in union with God, they will obey His commandments, but no one earns merit or brings about salvation through a process of sanctification. That is an utter impossibility. No one will be saved because of their good works, yet no one will be saved without good works. The saved will be sanctified but it results from a faith-based relationship with Christ.

[Robert]

...all people who go to heaven will be sinners but none of them will be disobedient sinners.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

And last time I checked you were still a sinner? So Christ came to save you from the curse of the law for' date=' "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." [/quote']

Please consider the quote from Waggoner I included with my comment.

I'll go with Paul....Please consider Paul...see Gal chapter 3....

[Robert]

What makes a "sinner" a sinner?

Matthew 6:33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Has Jesus sent us on a wild goose chase, I think not. We are to seek righteousness, the righteousness of (His) God's righteousness. God is not a sinner who is righteous and we are not to be sinners who are righteous and we are to seek the kingdom of God. We find this kingdom when we are righteous. The process of sanctification is the way to the kingdom.

This is legalism....If we have Christ we have heaven....There's no work....Anything we experience reveals our faith, not our acceptance.

[wayfinder]

So your saying that Jesus was a legalist and Christ wasn't?

There is a difference between legalism and law abiding.

John 17:3 NAS

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

[Robert]

So your saying that Jesus was a legalist...?

I'm saying that Christ lived the law and more....He lived the Spirit of the law. There wasn't an ounce of selfishness...he never lived for himself even to the point of homelessness. He was the servant of all.....Can any of you make that claim? If not, then you are failing to keep the law you say is binding and therefore, according to the theology of many on CA, no heaven....

[wayfinder]

What law are you referring to?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

...all people who go to heaven will be sinners but none of them will be disobedient sinners.

No, those who go to heaven will have been changed. They will be sinless....

You are apparently talking about the change that occurs at the Second Coming when this mortal puts on immortality. However, those who are practicing sin at that time will be lost. Any changes in our characters must occur BEFORE the end of human probation, not after. People who are still practicing or cherishing sin and haven't overcome all known sin in their life prior to that time will not receive the seal of God.

"The seal of the living God will be placed upon those only who bear a likeness to Christ in character."

"The seal of God will never be placed upon the forehead of an impure man or woman." (LDE 221)

See also GC 425-432.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: karl

To be transformed by the indwelling Spirit of Christ so that it is my normal attitude to love mercy, do justly, and walk humbly with my God.

May I dissagree a little bit with you Karl? Not even a big dissagreement but a modification since we will always have in us until glorification the disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world:

"To be transformed by the indwelling Spirit of Christ so that dispite my sinful nature, to choose against the disposition to think I am for myself by making less of the outside world and instead love mercy, do justly and walk humbly with my God."

Oops, may I dissagree a little bit with myself now (ok there are a bunch of you who probaby think I'm crazy) but actually what I was thinking about last night is that we will always have the sinful nature that runs contary to the attitude to love mercy, do justly and walk humbly with my God. But I ended up splitting the truth. The sinful nature is one aspect of ourselves and will be there, but our deepest desire is to be like and with Jesus, that which does naturally want to love mercy, do justly and walk humbly with my God.

We are to be transformed so that our deepest desire is not only the more powerful drive, but the one that controls our life. (by the way Karl, I hope that you realize that while I want to expand out the picture a little more, I really LOVE your post!!!! It is powerful! Thank you!)

[Kevin H]

You just need to learn to read it and differentiate between the Old and New covenant....

Actually your statement here is as outdated as saying that December 25 became Jesus birthday in the 4th century and came from paganism.... You see something, but it is too mixed with tradition and misunderstandings about the Old Testament to reach a clearer conclusion.

There are new discoveries in the early church, and in Old Testament theology, and while some confuse the old understandings of the Old Testament with the New and color the New from their understanding of the Old, the New Testament is only a continuation of what was the so called Old.