What is salvation?

[Gerr]

This is not that hard to understand. I think Rob has been very clear unless one is 'looking' for ways to argue about what is not there.

Quote:

Robert:

Okay...let's go one sentence at at time:

1] Yes, all have been saved in Christ....

2] Everyone has a new humanity "in Christ" right now

3] ....Christ has done it all...even the life you currently enjoy...the food you eat...

4] but He will not force this gospel on you therefore if you are mentally able He requires you to give Him permission to account you perfect in Himself....

Where do you want to start?

Quote:

Gerry:

In #1 you claim "ALL have been saved...." That to me means NO ONE is lost!

In #4 you open the possibility that some might be lost because you are adding a condition of having to give God permission!

So in clearer language, what are you saying?

[color:blue]

Sooooooo, what was he saying?

[Robert]

Pam, read this:

Ps 129:13 For thou didst form my inward parts: Thou didst cover me in my mother's womb. 14 I will give thanks unto thee; For I am fearfully and wonderfully made: Wonderful are thy works; And that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My frame was not hidden from thee, When I was made in secret, [And] curiously wrought in the depths of the earth [from the earth]. 16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, [Even] the days that were ordained [for me], When as yet there was none of them.

[Woody]

Quote:

Sooooooo, what was he saying?

He's made this issue very clear throughout the thread. He's answered your question several times. I am not sure that repeating it will help the listener.

Like Rob said ... take it to God. For He alone can inspire and influence one towards Truth.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

It was our sins that was nailed to the cross.

Yes, but more...we were nailed to the cross.

Got scars on your palms do you?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

from God. I don't know what else you want me to say.

I mean your sinful life....God didn't create us sinners...that came after the fall....

Having clarified this' date=' where did you receive your fallen life from?

Rob [/quote']

My sinful nature ultimately came from Satan. But God created me.

[Guest]

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Robert

ALL are saved? And NONE lost?

[/quote']

Read what I said again....

Quote:

Yes, all have been saved in Christ....Everyone has a new humanity "in Christ" right now....Christ has done it all...even the life you currently enjoy...the food you eat...but He will not force this gospel on you therefore if you are mentally able He requires you to give Him permission to account you perfect in Himself....

That's what you said. Does it ever occur to you that what you meant may be clear to you but the way it comes out may not be so clear to someone else? So rather than jumping to conclusions, one resorts to clarification. Is that fair?

robert, are you explaining to the best of your ability, perhaps a bit defensively?

im not following all the discussions, just checking in on occasion, i think i have an idea of what you are saying, but i have to admit i get confused also at times.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Yes' date=' but more...we were nailed to the cross.[/quote']

Got scars on your palms do you?

Please forgive me; I don't want to take sides here as I understand some of this as different aspects of the truth fighting instead of complementing each other, so I don't want to look like I'm takeing sides here; however from Richard's quote I can't help but say

Not on mine but on the hands of the one living in my heart

[Guest]

I can say amen to that.

[Robert]

My sinful nature ultimately came from Satan. But God created me.

Yes, right, from Satan....But where did that originate? How did you receive it?

This idea might help:

Let's say I am at the mouth of a river. Every living person living off that river depends on it. The pure, clean river represents God's perfect creation.

Now let's say I pour arsenic at the mouth of the river. What happens to the river? It is polluted...everything along the river is tainted...it is affected.

The Bible clearly teaches that God made the human race in one man, Adam. I can give you plenty of verses if you wish. Even Eve was taken from Adam's side (some say rib).

When Adam sinned his humanity became polluted with iniquity (our bent-towards self). Hence the only thing he could pass along through procreation was a life that had sinned and was indwelt with iniquity.

So ultimately you received your life from Adam after the fall. You share his humanity. You share his life multiplied again and again through procreation. In fact all of us share one humanity - the life of Adam. Can you see this? I can't go to my next point until you do....

[Kevin H]

When Adam sinned his humanity became polluted with iniquity (our bent-towards self). Hence the only thing he could pass along through procreation was a life that had sinned and was indwelt with iniquity.

But this quote is in contradiction to Genesis 3:15 and Psalm 19 as well as other parts of the Bible. It is only half the truth being used against the rest of the truth.

When we sinned we did receive the sinful nature; the disposition in us to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world, to esteam our selves more highly than our bretheren.

However God did not leave us in this sad positioin. Granted it would be a lot easier if he did because we so often find ourselves in conflect with our two selves; but in the promice for the Messiah in Gen. 3:15 there is also the indication that God has put in our seed, that which is passed along through procreation, is that which has emity to sin and evil and Satan, and where Jesus is our deepest desire. If God did not put that in us we would not be interested in Jesus.

We have the two streams in us. We are attracted to both. Everything we do are tainted by both until glorification or distruction. Our best response to the Holy Spirit's work on our life is still always at least tainted by some selfishness, and our worst cooperation with Satan is still tainted with the desire to be like and with Jesus.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

When Adam sinned his humanity became polluted with iniquity (our bent-towards self). Hence the only thing he could pass along through procreation was a life that had sinned and was indwelt with iniquity.

I didn't understand a thing you said....My point was that God made us perfect when He made Adam. In Adam our life substance was perfect before the fall. Let's look at this:

Ps 139:13 For thou didst form my inward parts: Thou didst cover me in my mother's womb. 14 I will give thanks unto thee; For I am fearfully and wonderfully made: Wonderful are thy works; And that my soul knoweth right well.

Does God actually give life to us in the womb or did He set this in motion from the creation? If God actually places you in your mother's womb then that creates a problem. Why? The same David that wrote the above also said, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity [his bent to self]; And in sin did my mother conceive me."

Here's the NIV: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Note that an infant, in this case David, had no concept of sin at birth. How could he sin? Answer: Because David, like all of us, are born self-centered and because we are born "bent to self" we outwardly sin. Yes, infants need attention, but it's based on their wants, not yours....If you do not move when they need something they throw a fit....Where does that come from? Indwelling sin...its bent to self.....They are communicating something to you without talking - "I want it now...give it to me."

But David goes in further back because he says, "sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Now at conception we aren't even developed....How could such be sinful? Where did those cells at conception come from? Mom and Dad....Their lives, including their "bent to self", are now passed to their offspring. Hence we are "by nature children of wrath"....

Now if God put me in my mother's womb at conception then God is the author of sin because I am born bent to self...I am born selfish. See the problem?

So if God didn't actually create me in my mother's womb, then when? Answer: When He made Adam before the fall. Read on:

"15 My frame was not hidden from thee, When I was made in secret, curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.

Where did Adam come from? The earth...he was made from the dust of the earth....When did God make you? David says when He created Adam.

[WayneV]

Let's say I am at the mouth of a river. Every living person living off that river depends on it. The pure, clean river represents God's perfect creation.

Now let's say I pour arsenic at the mouth of the river. What happens to the river? It is polluted...everything along the river is tainted...it is affected.

The Bible clearly teaches that God made the human race in one man, Adam. I can give you plenty of verses if you wish. Even Eve was taken from Adam's side (some say rib).

When Adam sinned his humanity became polluted with iniquity (our bent-towards self). Hence the only thing he could pass along through procreation was a life that had sinned and was indwelt with iniquity.

So ultimately you received your life from Adam after the fall. You share his humanity. You share his life multiplied again and again through procreation. In fact all of us share one humanity - the life of Adam. Can you see this? I can't go to my next point until you do....

Robert,

If I am understanding you correctly. Then wouldn't it be true that we did not simply inherit our sinful nature from Adam, but we were actually there with Adam when he sinned? Therefore, Adams sin is our sin because we are Adam. Also, wouldn't this mean that we carry Adam's guilt, being condemned from the foundation of the world, even before we are conceived?

This would be a very hard thing to assimilate into our inividualistic western thought.

[Robert]

If I am understanding you correctly. Then wouldn't it be true that we did not simply inherit our sinful nature from Adam, but we were actually there with Adam when he sinned?

[WayneV]

Robert,

I'm not real big on EGW, although, I do enjoy much of the conflict series.

Thanks for your explanation. One thing that I still do not grasp. If we were not actually Adam and did not commit his sin, how then are we guilty of his transgression? This part does not seem to make sense to me.

Thanks in advance for your response.

[oldsailor29]

Now if God put me in my mother's womb at conception then God is the author of sin because I am born bent to self...I am born selfish. See the problem?

I do not see a problem there. God created everything. Heaven is no stranger to sin. Sin originated in Heaven. God created both light and darkness, good and evil. Isa. 45:7. God is keeping sin alive for the good of the entire universe. GC 499 Saying that God is the author of sin is just facing the truth. God is the author of sin, and He will handle it.

[karl]

We have reason for ceaseless gratitude to God that Christ, by His perfect obedience, has won back the heaven that Adam lost through disobedience. Adam sinned, and the children of Adam share his guilt [] and its consequences; but Jesus bore the guilt of Adam, and all the children of Adam that will flee to Christ, the second Adam, may escape the penalty of transgression.

Do believe that EGW taught the doctrine of original sin? In what way would Christ be exempted from this original sin?

Inherent in your quote above is the conditional nature of Christ's intercession for man. "and all the children of Adam that will flee to Christ, the second Adam, may escape the penalty of transgression."

I do not get from the quote that all the children of Adam have already escaped from the penalty of transgression.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Note that an infant, in this case David, had no concept of sin at birth. How could he sin? Answer: Because David, like all of us, are born self-centered and because we are born "bent to self" we outwardly sin. Yes, infants need attention, but it's based on their wants, not yours....If you do not move when they need something they throw a fit....Where does that come from? Indwelling sin...its bent to self.....They are communicating something to you without talking - "I want it now...give it to me."

When Jesus was a baby, don't you think He cried when He needed attention?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: WayneV

If I am understanding you correctly. Then wouldn't it be true that we did not simply inherit our sinful nature from Adam, but we were actually there with Adam when he sinned?

Our substance was there...our cells...our DNA...our make up, not our individuality. We were not aware of the fall when Adam fell, but because our life was there we are born bent to self at birth.

Quote:

wouldn't this mean that we carry Adam's guilt

I don't know if you are SDA? I don't know if you are heavy on EGW, if so read the following and then we will discuss it:

-BC- FW

-TI- Faith and Works

-CN- 11

-CT- Obedience and Sanctification

-PR- 03

-PG- 88

We have reason for ceaseless gratitude to God that Christ, by His perfect obedience, has won back the heaven that Adam lost through disobedience. Adam sinned, and the children of Adam share his guilt [] and its consequences; but Jesus bore the guilt of Adam, and all the children of Adam that will flee to Christ, the second Adam, may escape the penalty of transgression.

I have EGW's complete works on CD but I can't seem to find it that we share Adam's guilt. Would you kindly provide the exact quote?

[karl]

I do not see a problem there. God created everything. Heaven is no stranger to sin. Sin originated in Heaven. God created both light and darkness, good and evil. Isa. 45:7. God is keeping sin alive for the good of the entire universe. GC 499 Saying that God is the author of sin is just facing the truth. God is the author of sin, and He will handle it.

I see a problem above.

God created the possibility of sin when He gave us free will, but He is not the Author of sin.

To make that claim would be equivalent to saying that Thomas Jefferson is the author of any manuscript which can be written using the words found in the Declaration of Independence.

It is true that God takes responsibility for dealing with sin, but it not true to say He is the Author of it.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I don't know if you are SDA? I don't know if you are heavy on EGW, if so read the following and then we will discuss it:

-BC- FW

-TI- Faith and Works

-CN- 11

-CT- Obedience and Sanctification

-PR- 03

-PG- 88

We have reason for ceaseless gratitude to God that Christ, by His perfect obedience, has won back the heaven that Adam lost through disobedience. Adam sinned, and the children of Adam share his guilt [] and its consequences; but Jesus bore the guilt of Adam, and all the children of Adam that will flee to Christ, the second Adam, may escape the penalty of transgression.

I have EGW's complete works on CD but I can't seem to find it that we share Adam's guilt. Would you kindly provide the exact quote?

[Robert]

If we were not actually Adam and did not commit his sin, how then are we guilty of his transgression? This part does not seem to make sense to me.

Thanks in advance for your response.

Well, and this might be a shocker for those who think EGW is infallible, she is mistaken. She uses the word "guilt". We are not "guilty" of Adam's sin unless we do the same, but because Adam turned his back on God he fell. What does that mean? No longer was agape the driver...instead after the fall Adam became "bent-to-self" a term the Bible calls iniquity.

Go to Gen 1:26 "And God said , Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

Adam was originally created with a humanity indwelt with the principle of agape. He perfectly reflected that love which is not self-seeking....But after the fall we see his nature take a u-turn:

Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created . 3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years [this is referring to after the fall], and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Seth, Adam's son, was born in the likeness of his father....No longer was Adam in the image of God, hence Adam passed on to Seth a humanity that stood condemned because of indwelling sin and transgression.

What we receive from Adam is a life that has fallen and therefore a life under the curse (under condemnation). Because we are born bent-to-self and because we are born without God's Spirit our minds/character are in harmony with our natures. We stand condemned because of inward sin (iniquity) and outward sins....

Rob

[karl]

Seth, Adam's son, was born in the likeness of his father....No longer was Adam in the image of God, hence Adam passed on to Seth a humanity that stood condemned because of indwelling sin and transgression.

What we receive from Adam is a life that has fallen and therefore a life under the curse (under condemnation). Because we are born bent-to-self and because we are born without God's Spirit our minds/character are in harmony with our natures. We stand condemned because of inward sin (iniquity) and outward sins....

Rob

If this is not the doctrine of original sin it is very, very close to it. Again, the immediate question that comes to mind is: "How did Christ manage to be born without this original sin condemnation?"

The Catholics solve this dilemma by having Mary sinless. They ignore the problem this raises with Mary's parents and on back through her ancestors (they need to be sinless also, for this to work.)

How do you solve it?

[Robert]

If this is not the doctrine of original sin it is very, very close to it. Again, the immediate question that comes to mind is: "How did Christ manage to be born without this original sin condemnation?"

Your argument is with EGW:

-BC- FW

-TI- Faith and Works

-CN- 11

-CT- Obedience and Sanctification

-PR- 03

-PG- 88

We have reason for ceaseless gratitude to God that Christ, by His perfect obedience, has won back the heaven that Adam lost through disobedience. Adam sinned, and the children of Adam share his guilt and its consequences; but Jesus bore the guilt of Adam, and all the children of Adam that will flee to Christ, the second Adam, may escape the penalty of transgression.

[Robert]

"How did Christ manage to be born without this original sin condemnation?"

He didn't....The moment He assumed our humanity that moment He came under the curse:

Gal 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law [under the curse]...

2 Cor 5:21 God made him who had no sin [as God] to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Here's A.T. Jones:

Read!