What is salvation?

[Gerr]

Thanks.

[pnattmbtc]

Our best response to the Holy Spirit's work on our life is still always at least tainted by some selfishness, and our worst cooperation with Satan is still tainted with the desire to be like and with Jesus.

Interesting point. I don't recall hearing the second half of this being expressed before.

[pnattmbtc]

Well, and this might be a shocker for those who think EGW is infallible, she is mistaken. She uses the word "guilt". We are not "guilty" of Adam's sin unless we do the same, but because Adam turned his back on God he fell.

This makes it pretty clear to me that you didn't understand what she was saying (i.e., your last sentence here makes that clear.) I think before pronouncing someone "mistaken," it would be prudent to first get right what they were saying. First understand, and then make decisions as to whether or not you disagree, is the way to go, I think.

[pnattmbtc]

What we receive from Adam is a life that has fallen and therefore a life under the curse (under condemnation). Because we are born bent-to-self and because we are born without God's Spirit our minds/character are in harmony with our natures. We stand condemned because of inward sin (iniquity) and outward sins.

Why do you think we are born without God's Spirit?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Any man, therefore, in all the world, who knows guilt, by that very thing knows also what Jesus felt for him and by this knows how close Jesus has come to him. Whosoever knows what is condemnation in that knows exactly what Jesus felt for him and so knows how thoroughly Jesus is able to sympathize with him and to redeem him.

Whosoever knows the curse of sin, "the plague of his own heart," in that can know exactly what Jesus experienced for him and how entirely Jesus identified Himself, in very experience, with him.

Bearing guilt, being under condemnation and so under the weight of the curse, Jesus, a whole lifetime in this world of guilt, condemnation, and the curse, lived the perfect life of the righteousness of God, without ever sinning at all. And whenever any man knowing guilt, condemnation, and the curse of sin, and knowing that Jesus actually felt in His experience all this just as man feels it; then, in addition, that man by believing in Jesus can know in his experience the blessedness of the perfect life of the righteousness of God in his life to redeem him from guilt, from condemnation, and from the curse; and to be manifested in his whole lifetime to keep him from ever sinning at all.

This is from the A. T. Jones link Robert provided. These are great points that Jones brings out. His 1895 sermons (around Sermons 14, 15, 16 and on, as I recall) discuss Christ in the Psalms, and bring out these thoughts in detail. One of the points that Jones emphasized is how close Jesus Christ came to us. I think this is a wonderful point, that is not even considered by many.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

"How did Christ manage to be born without this original sin condemnation?"

He didn't....The moment He assumed our humanity that moment He came under the curse:

Gal 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law [under the curse]...

2 Cor 5:21 God made him who had no sin [as God] to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Here's A.T. Jones:

Read!

I prefer EGW to AT Jones.

"Here the test to Christ was far greater than that of Adam and Eve, for Christ took our nature, fallen but not corrupted, and would not be corrupted unless He received the words of Satan in the place of the words of God."

Although Christ was made "to be sin for us," I don't believe He came under condemnation. He actually reversed the sinners' condemnation for all who will receive Him.

"Although as sinners we are under the condemnation of the law, yet Christ by His obedience rendered to the law, claims for the repentant soul the merit of His own righteousness. In order to obtain the righteousness of Christ, it is necessary for the sinner to know what that repentance is which works a radical change of mind and spirit and action."

"The moral law was bondage and death to those who remained under its condemnation. The law was ordained to life, that those who were obedient, walking in harmony with its claims, should have the reward of the faithful--eternal life."

[Woody]

Quote:

First understand, and then make decisions as to whether or not you disagree, is the way to go, I think.

I'm sorry. But this made me laugh. I know it shouldn't for it is actually rather sad. And I am not directing this at any particular person. But this is simply just not done on this forum. I see a sad neglect and at times purposeful neglect of this even after being told by the person quoted. Of course EGW is dead so we can't ask her. But look for example how people tear Rick Warren apart based on rumor and gossip instead of fact. This issue is perhaps one of the greatest needs here on this forum.

I can repeat over and over that I do not believe something. And yet repeatedly I am TOLD that I believe and have stated such. It gets fruitless to keep trying to set the record straight. So the lies just continue after being told that they are false.

I do appreciate you bringing up this issue pnattmbtc for I suspect it greatly impacts our salvation.

[Guest]

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Seth, Adam's son, was born in the likeness of his father....No longer was Adam in the image of God, hence Adam passed on to Seth a humanity that stood condemned because of indwelling sin and transgression.

What we receive from Adam is a life that has fallen and therefore a life under the curse (under condemnation). Because we are born bent-to-self and because we are born without God's Spirit our minds/character are in harmony with our natures. We stand condemned because of inward sin (iniquity) and outward sins....

Rob

If this is not the doctrine of original sin it is very, very close to it. Again, the immediate question that comes to mind is: "How did Christ manage to be born without this original sin condemnation?"

we are born with the nature of adam after he sinned.

Christ while fully human is also fully divine.

[teresaq]

Thanks.

hmmmm, is there a "manual" somewhere on this? or is it, well, ill just leave it at that....

sad to say i am understanding better and better all the time, so sad to say.

[pnattmbtc]

I prefer EGW to AT Jones.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Gal 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law [under the curse]...

2 Cor 5:21 God made him who had no sin [as God] to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Here's A.T. Jones:

Read!

I prefer EGW to AT Jones.

thats ok that you do, but they do not contradict each other. we just need to study more to understand better. you, me, all of us. :)

[pnattmbtc]

I can repeat over and over that I do not believe something. And yet repeatedly I am TOLD that I believe and have stated such. It gets fruitless to keep trying to set the record straight. So the lies just continue after being told that they are false.

This has happened a lot to me as well. Not referring to this forum, where I haven't been long, but on another forum. What I have done is to plead for people to quote me, but that has only been marginally successful. Instead of quoting me they complain that I'm being unreasonable in making such a request.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

I can repeat over and over that I do not believe something. And yet repeatedly I am TOLD that I believe and have stated such. It gets fruitless to keep trying to set the record straight. So the lies just continue after being told that they are false.

This has happened a lot to me as well. Not referring to this forum, where I haven't been long, but on another forum. What I have done is to plead for people to quote me, but that has only been marginally successful. Instead of quoting me they complain that I'm being unreasonable in making such a request.

Exactly. Same thing here.

[teresaq]

The rest is good too. What he wrote on this in "The Gospel in Galatians" is even better, but would take longer to find. He makes the same argument Jones makes, which is a sound argument. Here's a bit of the argument, again from "The Glad Tidings"

i assume you have the cd?

[teresaq]

Quote:

Quote:

First understand, and then make decisions as to whether or not you disagree, is the way to go, I think.

... I know it shouldn't for it is actually rather sad. And I am not directing this at any particular person. But this is simply just not done on this forum. I see a sad neglect and at times purposeful neglect of this even after being told by the person quoted.....

... I suspect it greatly impacts our salvation.

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

etc.

[Woody]

Excellent Teresa. Thanks. Great scripture for these times in which we live.

[Woody]

"In this time evil angels in the form of men will talk with those who know the truth. They will misinterpret and misconstrue the statements of the messengers of God.” 3SM 410-411.

"Thus men came to Christ. And mingling with His hearers were evil angels in the form of men, making their suggestions, criticizing, misapplying, and misinterpreting the Saviour's words. In this time evil angels in the form of men will talk with those who know the truth. They will misinterpret and misconstrue the statements of the messengers of God.” 3SM 410-411.

[WayneV]

Robert,

Please note, my only conversation on this thread is with you. I am sincerely trying to understand this concept. That being said, you wrote:

We stand condemned because of inward sin (iniquity) and outward sins....

Are we conceived and born under this condemnation? Why would we be born condemned if we are not sharing Adams guilt? Is it not this guilt that Christ speaks of when He talks of freeing the captive? And, is it not the condemnation resulting from this guilt that Christ, in the flesh, suffered the penalty for?

Again, thank you in advance for your answers to my questions. And please, don't quote people who are in error to support your perspective. It only confuses weak minded people like myself! Thank you.

Agape`

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Note that an infant, in this case David, had no concept of sin at birth. How could he sin? Answer: Because David, like all of us, are born self-centered and because we are born "bent to self" we outwardly sin. Yes, infants need attention, but it's based on their wants, not yours....If you do not move when they need something they throw a fit....Where does that come from? Indwelling sin...its bent to self.....They are communicating something to you without talking - "I want it now...give it to me."

When Jesus was a baby, don't you think He cried when He needed attention?

So Jesus had fits of rage.....You've seen babies when they are upset, they throw fits....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

What we receive from Adam is a life that has fallen and therefore a life under the curse (under condemnation). Because we are born bent-to-self and because we are born without God's Spirit our minds/character are in harmony with our natures. We stand condemned because of inward sin (iniquity) and outward sins.

Why do you think we are born without God's Spirit?

Adam....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

He didn't....The moment He assumed our humanity that moment He came under the curse:

Gal 4:4 But when the set time had fully come' date=' God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law [under the curse']...

2 Cor 5:21 God made him who had no sin [as God] to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Here's A.T. Jones:

Read!

Although Christ was made "to be sin for us," I don't believe He came under condemnation."

Come on now...let's make decisions based on the Bible! Gal 4:4 says that Christ's assumed humanity was "born under the law, to redeem those under the law [under the curse]..."

Now go to Gal 3:13 Christ [as the son of man] hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written , Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

Now use Ellen: Jesus was born under the curse because "He took upon His sinless nature [as Deity], our fallen nature [as us]".

[Robert]

Are we conceived and born under this condemnation? Why would we be born condemned if we are not sharing Adams guilt?

Romans 7:1 ...."The law is binding on a person as long as he lives"

Now if we are sinners what does the law do to us?

Romans 3:19 "Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced, and the whole world may be guilty before God."

You stand condemned not because you "ate of the fruit" as did Adam. You stand condemned because you share his fallen life indwelt with iniquity + your own personal sins.....

[WayneV]

Robert,

Thank you for patiently dealing with my questions. I see where you are coming from. At the same time, it seems that we have a different understanding of what makes-up "guilt". However, I can at least understand what you are attempting to get across. Thank you again for your patience.

Agape`

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Although Christ was made "to be sin for us," I don't believe He came under condemnation."

Come on now...let's make decisions based on the Bible! Gal 4:4 says that Christ's assumed humanity was "born under the law, to redeem those under the law [under the curse]..."

Now go to Gal 3:13 Christ [as the son of man] hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written , Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

Now use Ellen: Jesus was born under the curse because "He took upon His sinless nature [as Deity], our fallen nature [as us]".

No, Robert.

I'm convinced that God did not condemn His Son. Christ was condemned by man, but not by God. He bore the curse of sin on our behalf, but he was without sin. Christ was sacrificed for OUR sins, but He was the unblemished lamb. He could not be condemned. He was unblemished. The doctrine of original sin does not hold here.

"The name of Jesus is efficacious to the sinner during his probation. Jesus never broke the law of his Father; he honored and magnified it, and bore its curse for us. Repentance toward God, and simple faith in the blood of Christ, and obedience to the law of God will save the sinner; for Christ will then impute to him his righteous character. But the blood of Christ will never atone for a sin unrepented and unconfessed."

Please note that this quote strikes at the heart of the teaching of universal forensic atonement.