What is salvation?

[Woody]

LIke I stated. Some are able to do it and others are not. I can't know who is saved and how is lost. I can only know for myself that I am saved.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Robert:

When are you going to gain the victory over all sin and live Christ's life?

Kindly answer the question? Are you saying we don't have to gain victory over sin? That we can hang on to sin and still be saved?

Thanks.

Robert:(From another post in answer to Wayfinder)I am not going to start playing that game....

Robert: (In answer to the question I asked.) Kindly answer my question because it will answer yours....

Play your game, Robert. But I'll answer your question anyway.

As long as we are in this flesh, we will never be totally free of sin. But victory over intentional/"high-handed"/deliberate sins is promised to every believer in whom God's Spirit dwells, 1 Jn 3:6-10. Since you don't believe God's written testimony that anyone has by God's grace done this, you'll have to ask God directly whether this is true or not.

[Gerr]

LIke I stated. Some are able to do it and others are not. I can't know who is saved and how is lost. I can only know for myself that I am saved.

I KNOW Satan and his angels ARE lost because Revelation tells us they will burn in the lake of fire. They clung to sin and are lost.

I KNOW Judas is lost because he was referred to by Christ himself as, "the son of perdition/destruction." He too clung to sin. You might be able to hold on to sin and still claim to be saved, but I can't. If I turn out to be in error, no harm done. But if you are wrong and indeed is clinging on to sin, then the error is fatal.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Repentance is saying I am a sinner...Sin is the transgression of the law. Sorry you don't see this...

"Repentence is saying I am a sinner," that's it? No wonder that no radical reformation of sinners is needed in your theology!

Baker's Encyclopedia: Repentance.

Literally a change of mind, not about individual plans, intentions, or beliefs, but rather a change in the whole personality from a sinful course of action to God.Elwell, W. A., & Beitzel, B. J. (1988). Baker encyclopedia of the Bible. Map on lining papers. (1836). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Book House.

Repentance — There are three Greek words used in the New Testament to denote repentance. (1.) The verb metamelomai is used of a change of mind, such as to produce regret or even remorse on account of sin, but not necessarily a change of heart. This word is used with reference to the repentance of Judas (Matt. 27:3).

(2.) Metanoeo, meaning to change one’s mind and purpose, as the result of after knowledge. This verb, with (3.) the cognate noun metanoia, is used of true repentance, a change of mind and purpose and life, to which remission of sin is promised.

Easton, M. (1996, c1897). Easton's Bible dictionary. Oak Harbor, WA: LogEvangelical repentance consists of (1) a true sense of one’s own guilt and sinfulness; (2) an apprehension of God’s mercy in Christ; (3) an actual hatred of sin (Ps. 119:128; Job 42:5, 6; 2 Cor. 7:10) and turning from it to God; and (4) a persistent endeavour after a holy life in a walking with God in the way of his commandments. os Research Systems, Inc.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

LIke I stated. Some are able to do it and others are not. I can't know who is saved and how is lost. I can only know for myself that I am saved.

I KNOW Satan and his angels ARE lost because Revelation tells us they will burn in the lake of fire. They clung to sin and are lost.

I KNOW Judas is lost because he was referred to by Christ himself as, "the son of perdition/destruction." He too clung to sin. You might be able to hold on to sin and still claim to be saved, but I can't. If I turn out to be in error, no harm done. But if you are wrong and indeed is clinging on to sin, then the error is fatal.

All I can say it that I hang onto my sins. My job is to come to Him. He is the one who makes me whole. The sin thing is HIS responsibility. I can't do anything of myself. It's all about Him.

[karl]

"To human reason the whole plan of salvation is a waste of mercy. Self-denial and whole-hearted sacrifice meet us everywhere. But they are provided to accomplish the restoration of the moral image of God in man." YI 7/19/1900

IOW, salvation is not just about remission of punishment, it is about TOTAL RESTORATION!

Absolutely right on target.

If our gospel is simply about being removed from the curse of the law, we come up with a gospel of appeasement, where the object is the sacrifice - getting God killed fixes everything. This is an incomplete and therefore false gospel.

Saul believed the object was the sacrifice when he disobeyed God in order to sacrifice to God. Samuel told him, "Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice."

The object of all God's sacrifices on our behalf is to turn rebels into loyal and willing subjects.

It's a tall order, but He Who began a good work in us is able to complete it.

[Gerr]

If you don't know who is saved and who is lost in a GENERAL sense, how then can you know you are saved?

[pnattmbtc]

If our gospel is simply about being removed from the curse of the law, we come up with a gospel of appeasement, where the object is the sacrifice - getting God killed fixes everything. This is an incomplete and therefore false gospel.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I KNOW Satan and his angels ARE lost because Revelation tells us they will burn in the lake of fire. They clung to sin and are lost.

I KNOW Judas is lost because he was referred to by Christ himself as' date=' "the son of perdition/destruction." He too clung to sin. You might be able to hold on to sin and still claim to be saved, but I can't. If I turn out to be in error, no harm done. But if you are wrong and indeed is clinging on to sin, then the error is fatal.

[/quote']

All I can say it that I hang onto my sins. My job is to come to Him. He is the one who makes me whole. The sin thing is HIS responsibility. I can't do anything of myself. It's all about Him.

No personal accountability? WOW!!!

[Guest]

All I can say it that I hang onto my sins. My job is to come to Him. He is the one who makes me whole. The sin thing is HIS responsibility. I can't do anything of myself. It's all about Him.

Pointing to Jesus, he said, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." That is His work. Will you let Him take away your sins, or will you cling to them as a precious acquisition?

{BEcho, November 12, 1894 par. 5}

Those who cling to sin will perish..... {COL 123.3}

While those who yield to the influence of the Holy Spirit begin war with themselves, those who cling to sin war against the truth and its representatives. {DA 306.1}

If we regard iniquity in our hearts, if we cling to any known sin, the Lord will not hear us; but the prayer of the penitent, contrite soul is always accepted. When all known wrongs are righted, we may believe that God will answer our petitions. {Pr 101.4}

But God is not to be trifled with. We can make no selfish bargain with him; we can cling to no sin if we would retain his favor. {SpTEd 75.2}

You cannot advance heavenward while you cling to your sins. {YI, August 11, 1886 par. 6}

They should make it an individual work to draw near to God. No one can be saved by proxy, but every man and woman must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. Satan has much more power over some who profess the truth than many realize. Self reigns in the heart, instead of Christ. Self-will, self-interest, envy, and pride shut out the presence of God.]/b] {4T 609.4}

Because great light has been given, because men have, as did the princes of Israel, ascended to the mount and been privileged to have communion with God, and been allowed to dwell in the light of His glory--for these thus favored to think that they can afterward sin, and corrupt their ways before God, and still keep on as though doing God's will, as though God would not mark sin against them because they have been thus honored of God, is a fatal deception. The great light and privileges bestowed require returns of virtue and holiness corresponding with the light given them. Anything short of this, God will not accept. {TM 454.1}

[Gerr]

Thanks for those quotes. No question that sin separates us from God and hides His face, Isa 59:1.

[Guest]

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

[Gerr]

Ah, sorry, I missed the verse. Yeah, we don't have a God who has phocomelia (short flipper-like arms) that He cannot save!

[Robert]

Ah, sorry, I missed the verse. Yeah, we don't have a God who has phocomelia (short flipper-like arms) that He cannot save!

He already did "in Christ"

Now if you are speaking of fruit, the problem is our surrender....God won't force you to be selfless....

[Gerr]

Then are all saved?

[karl]

Thanks for those quotes. No question that sin separates us from God and hides His face, Isa 59:1.

The converse is also true - that God separates us from sin if we will submit and cooperate with Him - as far as the east is from the west. We have traditionally thought of that as a long way, but the east and the west meet wherever we are. When God separates us from sin it is by effecting a change in us - a 180 change of direction.

[Gerr]

Exactly!!!

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

All I can say it that I hang onto my sins. My job is to come to Him. He is the one who makes me whole. The sin thing is HIS responsibility. I can't do anything of myself. It's all about Him.

No personal accountability? WOW!!!

[karl]

All I can say it that I hang onto my sins. My job is to come to Him. He is the one who makes me whole. The sin thing is HIS responsibility. I can't do anything of myself. It's all about Him.

Reminds me of that Amy Grant hit. "I'm gonna live like a believer - turn my back on the deceiver - being good is just a fable - I just can't cuz I'm not able."

It IS true that we're not able. But, with God it is NOT true that we just can't. How's that for a self-contradictory paragraph?

With God all things are possible.

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

"Remember that working with Christ as your personal Saviour is your strength and your victory. This is the part that all are to act. To those who do this comes the assurance: "As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God." John 1:12. Christ declares: "Without Me ye can do nothing." John 15:5. And the humble, believing soul responds: "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:13." Testimonies for the Church Volume Seven (1902), page 39

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

All I can say it that I hang onto my sins. My job is to come to Him. He is the one who makes me whole. The sin thing is HIS responsibility. I can't do anything of myself. It's all about Him.

It IS true that we're not able. But, with God it is NOT true that we just can't. How's that for a self-contradictory paragraph?

isnt that pretty much what redwood is saying?

[Woody]

Quote:

With God all things are possible.

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Excellent point. But despite this ... in my sinfullness ... I hang onto MY sins. Yes, ALL things are possible. The strength is there. There is NO excuse for sin as EGW puts it. Yet ... in my sinfullness ... I SIN.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

It IS true that we're not able. But' date=' with God it is NOT true that we just can't. How's that for a self-contradictory paragraph? [/quote']isnt that pretty much what redwood is saying?

I think it is important to differentiate between what God does entirely by Himself and what we do yoked up with Him.

We can do nothing but evil on our own. But working WITH God, nothing is impossible.

Do you ever feel any internal resistance to the idea that we must cooperate with God in our own salvation and in the salvation of others?

[Robert]

If our gospel is simply about being removed from the curse of the law, we come up with a gospel of appeasement, where the object is the sacrifice - getting God killed fixes everything. This is an incomplete and therefore false gospel.

What you have presented is an incomplete gospel....You died to the law in the body of Christ....EGW clearly teaches that "Deity did not sink and die, humanity died"...That was your humanity....You are no longer under the curse....Jesus wasn't appeasing an angry God....God was in Christ reconciling the human race to Himself in the doing and dying of Christ....The law has been legally answered without doing away with it.

[Woody]

Quote:

God was in Christ reconciling the human race to Himself in the doing and dying of Christ....The law has been legally answered without doing away with it.

Excellent Excellent. Now please ... I hope someone is not going to come by and state that Robert believes that the law was done away with. Please tell me we are better than that.

[Robert]

Those who cling to sin will perish..... {COL 123.3}

Sure, the sin of unbelief....

Now if you are speaking of law keeping, then you need to let go of yourself love and self-seeking. Who said that? EGW:

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish."

In fact she says, "Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.